Why would I buy a 1SMC vs and M3? (Cost aside)

[jkp1187]

Originally Posted by jwalker

So my choice ultimately, would be to buy a 1 Series M, but until I see S-Drive offered...I'll just stick with my 08 CGM and continue owning you M guys with my 10 year old Impreza Coupe

?

"s-drive" = RWD in BMW's esoteric nomenclature.

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by jkp1187

Fixxored

What I meant was that they should offer it w/ a 7-speed DCT. Like the Z4 "S-Drive 35"

[Pete_vB]

Pros and cons...

Why you should buy the M3: It’s the last of its breed. The trend towards bigger, heavier, more powerful, more cylinders M cars has ended, and is about to be reversed. This version of the M3 will be the high water mark, perhaps forever. The cars will continue to get faster, but they will start getting lighter, smaller and more efficient. Like the last of the air-cooled 911s or the last cars before emissions controls, this M3 will always hold a special place, and in the future it will be lamented (like the E30) that “you can’t built them like that anymore”.

You’ll also get more comfort, equipment spec, poise, noise and throttle response over the 1M. Everything on the M3 is bespoke and designed to work together as a package (the PS2 tires were designed for the car, etc). M3 = A great GT, James Bond in a dinner jacket.

Why you shouldn’t buy the 1M: It’s the first of the new breed of turbo, lighter weight and smaller M cars. As such it’s going to be surpassed in almost every way by the next one, which will be lighter and more powerful. The E92 will always be “the last of the V8s”, while the 1M can expect to be exceeded in every way by its successors, be they 1, 2 or 3 series.

Why you should buy a 1M: it’s the better handling car now. OK, I’m making a leap here, because we don’t know. But the 1M has 10% less weight, 10” less length overall = lower polar moment, wider track, lower height, same brakes, tires, diff, etc. The only way it doesn’t handle better is if they don’t want it to handle better. More important, it sounds like the tuning philosophy might be harder-edged, a return to the M3 of old.

Simple = good. A few people mention the1Ms turbos as a potential maintenance headache, but 10 years from now when the 200+ little electric motors in the M3 are starting to go wrong and the electronics and DCT is on the blink, having less equipment will be blessing. A manual transmission, good old-fashioned dampers, etc: save money, weight, less to go wrong, more “authentic and involving” driving experience.

Bonuses are that the more tuning friendly and hence many will be faster than an M3, not slower. It also gets 50% better gas mileage. And it’s a limited production car that will be “special” because it’s rare and the first of its kind, meaning is should hold value fairly well vs a dime a dozen M3. 1M = Jason Bourne, no dinner jacket but he can still kick James Bond’s ass.

Turbo vs N/A character is of course an issue, and unspoken are the image issues with driving either an M3 or a 1M. Do you want to wear the dinner jacket?

[spudw]

Originally Posted by formula M

Kewl story bro...!

Do u have any clue what engineers do..? Or what engineering is, or what FEA, or CFD are..?

Do you understand the level of engineering that goes into making a car talk to you? Or how something seemingly insignificant like the durometer of a bushing can make all the difference in the world. Minute things add up.

You see a car, I see a machine.

Dude, I'm not weighing in on this week-old argument, but you should have stopped at your post before this one. Pedantic references to broad engineering principles won't prove whatever point you're trying to make. I'm sure you're a bonafide enthusiast, but whatever nuance it is you tried to communicate has been long lost in your lack of people skills (no offence, but you have been more than a little condescending).

I truly hope the 1SMC is the re-creation of the responsive M cars of the 1980s and 1990s, albeit respecting the constraints and characteristics of more modern cars. I don't think we'll ever find an enthusiast of older cars that is ever fully satisfied modern high technology-influenced cars. But I know there are tons of real enthusiasts that can appreciate the attributes and advances of more recent cars and wouldn't ever choose to go back either.

My (unoriginal) prediction is that the 1SMC will be more of a driver's car than the M3, if only on the basis of less mass and more compact dimensions. I'm pretty confident it will provide more feedback than an M3 and edge toward the satisfying feel that E30 enthusiasts yearn for. But I'm also fairly certain, as with everything, that it won't please everyone in every way.

[jkp1187]

Originally Posted by jwalker

What I meant was that they should offer it w/ a 7-speed DCT. Like the Z4 "S-Drive 35"

And again, "s-drive" in BMW's nomenclature does not refer to DCT.

[cpippolo]

Originally Posted by jkp1187

And again, "s-drive" in BMW's nomenclature does not refer to DCT.

I've given up on BMW's naming system. They only use "S-Drive" on the Z4, even though all of their sedans and coupes at least offer rear-wheel drive, and the 1-series, like the Z4, only comes in rear-wheel drive.

Of course, One Series M Coupe doesn't exactly roll of the toungue.

Good thing they make great cars.

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by jkp1187

And again, "s-drive" in BMW's nomenclature does not refer to DCT.

obvious post is obvious... there... happy???

[05C4R]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

Pros and cons...

Why you should buy the M3: It’s the last of its breed. The trend towards bigger, heavier, more powerful, more cylinders M cars has ended, and is about to be reversed. This version of the M3 will be the high water mark, perhaps forever. The cars will continue to get faster, but they will start getting lighter, smaller and more efficient. Like the last of the air-cooled 911s or the last cars before emissions controls, this M3 will always hold a special place, and in the future it will be lamented (like the E30) that “you can’t built them like that anymore”.

You’ll also get more comfort, equipment spec, poise, noise and throttle response over the 1M. Everything on the M3 is bespoke and designed to work together as a package (the PS2 tires were designed for the car, etc). M3 = A great GT, James Bond in a dinner jacket.

Why you shouldn’t buy the 1M: It’s the first of the new breed of turbo, lighter weight and smaller M cars. As such it’s going to be surpassed in almost every way by the next one, which will be lighter and more powerful. The E92 will always be “the last of the V8s”, while the 1M can expect to be exceeded in every way by its successors, be they 1, 2 or 3 series.

Why you should buy a 1M: it’s the better handling car now. OK, I’m making a leap here, because we don’t know. But the 1M has 10% less weight, 10” less length overall = lower polar moment, wider track, lower height, same brakes, tires, diff, etc. The only way it doesn’t handle better is if they don’t want it to handle better. More important, it sounds like the tuning philosophy might be harder-edged, a return to the M3 of old.

Simple = good. A few people mention the1Ms turbos as a potential maintenance headache, but 10 years from now when the 200+ little electric motors in the M3 are starting to go wrong and the electronics and DCT is on the blink, having less equipment will be blessing. A manual transmission, good old-fashioned dampers, etc: save money, weight, less to go wrong, more “authentic and involving” driving experience.

Bonuses are that the more tuning friendly and hence many will be faster than an M3, not slower. It also gets 50% better gas mileage. And it’s a limited production car that will be “special” because it’s rare and the first of its kind, meaning is should hold value fairly well vs a dime a dozen M3. 1M = Jason Bourne, no dinner jacket but he can still kick James Bond’s ass.

Turbo vs N/A character is of course an issue, and unspoken are the image issues with driving either an M3 or a 1M. Do you want to wear the dinner jacket?

nice post, first of the thread, has really helped me make a decision, and i look silly in a dinner jacket.

[theblackangus]

Originally Posted by beemer

nice post, first of the thread, has really helped me make a decision, and i look silly in a dinner jacket.

Agreed very nice input.

But what if I like a low polar moment and a dinner jacket? =)

All jokes aside, that sums up the crux of my indecision very nicely.

[Evice]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

Pros and cons...

Why you should buy the M3: It’s the last of its breed. The trend towards bigger, heavier, more powerful, more cylinders M cars has ended, and is about to be reversed. This version of the M3 will be the high water mark, perhaps forever. The cars will continue to get faster, but they will start getting lighter, smaller and more efficient. Like the last of the air-cooled 911s or the last cars before emissions controls, this M3 will always hold a special place, and in the future it will be lamented (like the E30) that “you can’t built them like that anymore”.

You’ll also get more comfort, equipment spec, poise, noise and throttle response over the 1M. Everything on the M3 is bespoke and designed to work together as a package (the PS2 tires were designed for the car, etc). M3 = A great GT, James Bond in a dinner jacket.

Why you shouldn’t buy the 1M: It’s the first of the new breed of turbo, lighter weight and smaller M cars. As such it’s going to be surpassed in almost every way by the next one, which will be lighter and more powerful. The E92 will always be “the last of the V8s”, while the 1M can expect to be exceeded in every way by its successors, be they 1, 2 or 3 series.

Why you should buy a 1M: it’s the better handling car now. OK, I’m making a leap here, because we don’t know. But the 1M has 10% less weight, 10” less length overall = lower polar moment, wider track, lower height, same brakes, tires, diff, etc. The only way it doesn’t handle better is if they don’t want it to handle better. More important, it sounds like the tuning philosophy might be harder-edged, a return to the M3 of old.

Simple = good. A few people mention the1Ms turbos as a potential maintenance headache, but 10 years from now when the 200+ little electric motors in the M3 are starting to go wrong and the electronics and DCT is on the blink, having less equipment will be blessing. A manual transmission, good old-fashioned dampers, etc: save money, weight, less to go wrong, more “authentic and involving” driving experience.

Bonuses are that the more tuning friendly and hence many will be faster than an M3, not slower. It also gets 50% better gas mileage. And it’s a limited production car that will be “special” because it’s rare and the first of its kind, meaning is should hold value fairly well vs a dime a dozen M3. 1M = Jason Bourne, no dinner jacket but he can still kick James Bond’s ass.

Turbo vs N/A character is of course an issue, and unspoken are the image issues with driving either an M3 or a 1M. Do you want to wear the dinner jacket?

respekt! Love the Jason Bourne vs James Bond analogy!!!!!

[Lucky1]

How about reliability of a V8 motor versus a twin-turbo I6 with problematic wastegates, carbon buildup and HPFP failures recorded? Just wondering if anyone thought of that...any similar issues with the V8 so far?

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Lucky1

How about reliability of a V8 motor versus a twin-turbo I6 with problematic wastegates, carbon buildup and HPFP failures recorded? Just wondering if anyone thought of that...any similar issues with the V8 so far?

Just for reference, the waste gate issue has been resolved with new design.
Early on there was an attempt to fix it with software, which resulted in the gates being slightly open to stop them from rattling, which then resulted in increased lag. That's the lag being noted in law suit.
But, that problem has been fixed for a while now, so it's not a concern for the N54 1M.

Other than the HPFP issue, which BMW fixes on every engine that has a failure, the N54 has been very reliable. No reports of blow up engines like there was with the early E46 NA M3, which also got a solid fix btw.

[Evice]

Originally Posted by formula M

Parts, are not engines. Some people do not understand, that; turbo <does not equal> engine. Nor does HPFP... the N54 has never really been mechanically challenged.

Secondly, M division did not invision much electronica in the 1M, or a large option lists. The had simplified the suspension, it's meaning. But be certain, the one thing they did, was increase the VE of this engine. Meaning re-engineered intake, exhaust, FMIC, turbos... nothing crazy, just to allow this engine to breath and increase responsiveness. Not to bag an extra 40hp.. thats not needed.

I bet the 1M will also get 30mpg. (If DR. Kay worked the breathing)

You are dreaming about that 30mpg. There is no f!@# way it can get better mileage then a N52 in official results, esp. when it is tuned for more performance. You are lucky if you get 135i official mpg #s.

[Brandon26pdx]

Originally Posted by Lucky1

How about reliability of a V8 motor versus a twin-turbo I6 with problematic wastegates, carbon buildup and HPFP failures recorded? Just wondering if anyone thought of that...any similar issues with the V8 so far?

Major drivetrain problems with the V8 M3's have been far and few between from what I understand. The DCT transmissions have been flakey for some, but an M3 coupe with a manual transmission is probably a very reliable car. Maybe not Honda Accord or Toyota Camry reliable, but reliable for what it is. Personally, that car would worry me less than a 1M, or even an x35i car for that matter.

The E46 M3's had plenty of potential mechanical disasters though. I wanted one for a long time and even test drove one but just decided those cars were just too much of a potential nightmare. (But I digress a bit)

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by Evice

You are dreaming about that 30mpg. There is no f!@# way it can get better mileage then a N52 in official results, esp. when it is tuned for more performance. You are lucky if you get 135i official mpg #s.

I get over 30 mpg with the top down so I don't know where you're getting that info from.

Just because you like to drive quickly spent mean that it can't get good mileage

[MthreeWannabe]

Originally Posted by ArabianSensation

If you care about that enough that it will make or break the decision, I think you're missing the point of buying an M car.

Disagree.....


I am 28 years old, can afford used M3s along with my mortgage at this point in life, I drive an e46 M3 and really need that folding seat to carry my surfboards around. Surfing is my number 1 hobby and track driving is number 2. Rear folding seat in an M3 allows me to do both with one car as I don't have the wealth yet to afford two cars.

[MthreeWannabe]

Originally Posted by Brandon26pdx

The E46 M3's had plenty of potential mechanical disasters though. I wanted one for a long time and even test drove one but just decided those cars were just too much of a potential nightmare. (But I digress a bit)

I guess I've been lucky, been driving mine since 77k miles, at 97.5k now, not a single issue thus far

[cpippolo]

Consumer reports rated the BMW M3 as the "Sporty car" (18 models) with the highest reliability, something like 70-75% above average. The 135i was in the same category and rated dead last, 100% below average. 128i came out in the middle.

[ChrisK]

99.9% of the DCT issues were related to software and have now been fixed. I have been a long long time fan of driving a MT... However, DCT is freaking amazing, and I don't think I will ever go back to a MT.

[Evice]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

I get over 30 mpg with the top down so I don't know where you're getting that info from.

Just because you like to drive quickly spent mean that it can't get good mileage

I said official. My car is listed 28 mpg highway, I am consistently getting 33-34 with 77 mph on 130 mile ride. It doesn't mean it is normal.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Evice

I said official. My car is listed 28 mpg highway, I am consistently getting 33-34 with 77 mph on 130 mile ride. It doesn't mean it is normal.

You guys must have less resistance in your air and roadways.

My overall MPG just doesn't get any better than 21-23mpg, and the terrain is FLAT as can be.
On the highway I may see the computer showing 30-31mpg, but as soon as the highway driving is over and I'm on regular roads the MPG goes down, quickly. I do actual miles traveled per gallon calculations, which are close to my computer. The cars comp is a bit more optimistic than my calculator.

With such wide and sticky tires, along with the weight of the bigger tires and wheels, and the increased power, along with shorter final drive, it'll be amazing if the 1M can achieve that number, cause technically it shouldn't.

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by Evice

I said official. My car is listed 28 mpg highway, I am consistently getting 33-34 with 77 mph on 130 mile ride. It doesn't mean it is normal.

Well let me just pull out my original window sticker here...

it says average 25 highway with a std deviation of 6.

So you highway mileage, according to driving habits, road conditions, and terrain should be between 19 and 31 mpg