Upgrade path for a 'grand touring' focused 135

[BimmerAg]

Originally Posted by atr_hugo

Exactly!! Have I missed a revolutionary development in tire compounding? I tend to trust TireRack, and these are the objective numbers - the same set of vehicles for testing IIRC. Startling results to me.

I'm thinking that the road surface temperature had to have been different for the two tests. Cloudy vs sunny day, spring vs summer, etc...

[juld0zer]

I've found the Pirelli Pzero (plain Pzero, not Rosso or all season) to be quite a good tyre under everyday use. They have good sidewall firmness and wont roll over in hard cornering. Versus the PSS, PSS needs some warmth to perform. When cold they are quite greasy. Pzero works well as an every day tyre, i would happily fit a set of four when these PSS wear out but im contemplating a set of four 17" rims and 4x 225/45R17 PS4. Tyres are cheaper by almost $150/tyre here. Thicker sidewalls for a little more comfort. Might make the car a bit more 'enjoyable' hahahahah

Also, note that the Pzero PZ4 is the new Pzero that is supposed to replace the old Pzero we are all familiar with (the one with the unusual S shaped outer tread block and slanted blocky tread). It is in the same class as Conti Sport Contact 6, which is supposed to be better than the PSS. PS4S, Sport Contact 6 and PZ4 are supposed to be very close competitors.

[gjm120]

Originally Posted by gjm120

How does the B8 / BMWP Spring combination work out? I'm looking at that b/c I like the lesser drop of the BMWP springs and the price of the B8's vs BMWP dampers.

juld0zer, any input you can offer on this question?

[juld0zer]

Bilstein B8 being B8s ride very firm. The springs offer a good ride height, suitable for everyday use but im curious if the Eibach Prokit springs packaged with the B12 kit would ride better. You will feel just about everything beneath your wheels - because of the B8 dampers.

Worth noting is that i think i may have the wrong springs for my car. They came off a 1 series with the performance suspension kit but the seller wasn't certain what model it came off. It's important to supply your VIN when buying the springs as they are tailored to the vehicle and its options

[John_01]

I have BMW performance Springs on the front of my car which is 2011 DCT 135i. Mine are the "T3" coded ones. IMO, "T3" are the right front springs for most 135i. Originally the dealer supplied the softer "T2" front springs together with the full kit of BMW performance suspension. I found the springs were a bit too soft and too low. The front of the car rode too much on the bump stops and lacked ground clearance over speed humps. T3 front springs ride higher than the T2 and I found them to be more comfortable because there is less interaction with the bump stops.

Later I changed out the BMW performance struts, and installed Koni adjustable shocks and struts. That's when I swapped the front spring to a "T3" spring instead of "T2". I have "T2" performance springs for the rear which are normally used (for even ride height drop) with the "T3" front, but I never installed them. Instead I use 500lb/in 10" long Coilover springs on the rear which are a slightly firmer rear spring that gives a bit more stability and nicely balanced handling. More info here: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...91&postcount=5

[gjm120]

From all I've read the B12 Eibach kit will sit a little lower than the BMWP springs. The spring rates are roughly the same. I can't even guess how that will translate into ride/road feel. I'm sure it somewhat depends on which BMWP spring is used.

As John_01 noted there can be a noticeable difference between a T2 and T3 front spring. For a 135i with MT, sunroof and most other options except navigation, BMW recommended T2 front, T3 rear. (there's a set for sale on here showing the spring table.) BMW's spring selection probably has a certain ride height and comfort level factored in.

I like the idea of BMWP springs with Bilstein or Koni dampers as you can tailor the spring selection for what is wanted in ride height and firmness. Of course, all this is dependent on figuring out (or guessing) what is the right spring.

Thanks for the feedback.

[atr_hugo]

Bit of an update: Just got back from a rather fun road trip, KC to Asheville, NC. Had to spend some time with my mother in Bowling Green, KY before heading further east. We tried to avoid interstates (sorry but if I see another Camry going 5 mph below the posted speed limit in the far left lane . . . ; -).

Other than the cluster of RVs and tourists in Pigeon Forge/Gatlinburg we had a good trip through the Great Smoky National Park on US 441. We then hooked up on the southernmost end of the Blue Ridge Parkway and drove it to Asheville, NC. Left the car in fifth gear (it's a 6MT) and kept the RPM between 1500 - 2500 (didn't want to be going too much over the posted limit on the parkway - federal fines ; -).

The car was great on those roads, twisting two lanes - I really like this car a lot. It is already a really good "Grand Touring" car (the old school definition, quick, sharp, and with a hint of luxury). Even She Who Must Be Obeyed enjoyed the trip and she deals with a bad back and hip (and an idiot husband to boot).

Awhile back, and many threads ago, Dackelone mentioned that tire pressures WERE important on runcraps in response to a comment suggesting otherwise. Absolutely CORRECT - run the runflats at the door placard pressures or just a bit higher. That will mitigate some of the harshness felt by this tire suspension combination.

We got caught in a couple of toad strangler rainstorms along the way and the RE050As were just OK - I need to re-check their wear; however, they were new last summer and have about 10k miles on them. They are due for replacement before next summer.

I think the '13 135i feels better out of the box than the '08 135i I had previously. But I still get that crashy nonsense over minor potholes and the like.

So that's the focus: find the right tires for the mission of the car, and then tune the suspension to be agile AND comfortable (knowing it won't be tracked).

I think we'll try to get five years on the car (get me to my 70th birthday) and evaluate from there.

[Cavpilot2k]

I have been running stock (2012 M-Sport) suspension except for Whiteline Inserts for three years now. Even just the inserts were a Godsend. They took away that rear-end floatiness that I had lived with for 3 years on my previous 135.

Now I'm looking at upgrading my suspension too - either the BMW PS or the B-12/Eibach combo. My car doesn't get tracked and is my year-round DD, so I'm looking for a fairly conservative setup. Just a little lower and firmer than stock, but not by a bunch - New England roads are rough, especially in the winter. Any advice would be welcome.

I am considering replacing my inserts with actual M3 bushings while the suspension is being done, but I'm not sure there's really a need.

Can anyone speak to whether the inserts break down over time? Since I already have those, would my money be better spent elsewhere than getting the M3 bushings?

Also, anybody know the best price source for the M3 bushings in the event I go that route?

[Gangplank]

Having now upgraded to the Ohlins R&T I can say they are fantastic. Firm but comfortable and not harsh.

I hated the stock 2011 suspension for the exact reason you describe - crash bang over everything. The stock suspension is under-sprung and over dampened. Especially the high speed dampening (i.e. square edged bumps when the suspension has to move quickly = high speed dampening). Instead of absorbing the bump it crashed over it and you felt everything.

[Dthltm]

I know the first thing everyone says is to ditch runflats, but as my daily driver in traffic all around DFW I simply can't overcome the peace of mind that comes with them as pulling over on many of the highways I drive on is legitimately risky. Do the same steps everyone wrote about work if I keep my runflats?

Goals:

1) To reduce the amount of suspension crash and ride harshness when I hit small potholes and imperfections
2) To reduce the floating/unconnected to the road feeling I get when road surface level rises at speed and the car basically feels airborn for a split second even though it isnt.

[Dthltm]

Originally Posted by Dthltm

I know the first thing everyone says is to ditch runflats, but as my daily driver in traffic all around DFW I simply can't overcome the peace of mind that comes with them as pulling over on many of the highways I drive on is legitimately risky. Do the same steps everyone wrote about work if I keep my runflats?

Goals:

1) To reduce the amount of suspension crash and ride harshness when I hit small potholes and imperfections
2) To reduce the floating/unconnected to the road feeling I get when road surface level rises at speed and the car basically feels airborn for a split second even though it isnt.

Bump for help?

[asbrr]

I think you have many options, most of the quality aftermarket dampers (Koni, bilstein) etc will provide better performance. If you are not at all interested in a track setup, I would consider a set of progressive springs (take your pick, mild Swift springs, H&R street etc) and a quality damper. You may be better off with Koni FSD which is more a ride focused upgrade, or go with adjustable Konis that you can manually dial down the dampening to provide a good ride.

I would shy away from the Bilstein line (B6 or B8) only because they are known (at least in my experience) to be a bit harsher than Konis. I have a Bilstein B12 kit myself, but I'm used to/prefer the feel of the Bilstein dampers.

If you feel the lack of control from the rear specifically, I would look at upgrading your rear subframe bushings as well, and perhaps the rear upper shock mounts (Dinan sells a set that adds 10mm of travel, which helps the damper control the rear wheel movements better).

[Cavpilot2k]

Originally Posted by Dthltm

I know the first thing everyone says is to ditch runflats, but as my daily driver in traffic all around DFW I simply can't overcome the peace of mind that comes with them as pulling over on many of the highways I drive on is legitimately risky. Do the same steps everyone wrote about work if I keep my runflats?

Goals:

1) To reduce the amount of suspension crash and ride harshness when I hit small potholes and imperfections
2) To reduce the floating/unconnected to the road feeling I get when road surface level rises at speed and the car basically feels airborn for a split second even though it isnt.

I still do runflats in the winter - it's dangerous to be on the side of the road trying to change a tire in a snowstorm.

In the summer, I often run with one of my winter wheel/tires in the trunk as a spare.

As far as suspension setup, I'm not sure I can help - I'm more concerned with summer performance on my summer tires and winter will be whatever it turns out to be.

[Dthltm]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

I still do runflats in the winter - it's dangerous to be on the side of the road trying to change a tire in a snowstorm.

In the summer, I often run with one of my winter wheel/tires in the trunk as a spare.

As far as suspension setup, I'm not sure I can help - I'm more concerned with summer performance on my summer tires and winter will be whatever it turns out to be.

It's always summer in Texas!

[Cavpilot2k]

Originally Posted by Dthltm

It's always summer in Texas!

And it's always winter in New England!

[duder13]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

And it's always winter in New England!

Yeah, my new-to-me 2012 135i came with brand new Pirellis run flats, but, since I'm in Portland, I'm in one of those in between climates that's often wet and cool, so I'm thinking about just running Michelin A/S 3+ all year.

[fast1eddy]

Originally Posted by atr_hugo

I liked the title of d k's thread so much that I plagiarized it, please forgive me d k.

What I'm looking at is determining the best way to upgrade the existing 135i to deliver a car that She Who Must Be Obeyed and I will use for travel in the next few years. It is a 2013 135i, pretty much loaded M-Sport, with Nav, PDC, H/K audio, black leather interior, and 6MT.

I previously owned an '08 135i that was totalled in July of '16. At one time on the '08 I was running an E93 M3 front swaybar, Koni FSDs, and Conti ExtremeContact DWs and eventually Michelin Pilot A/S3s (not for snow but for the expanded temp range of the tire compound - I have a set of wheels with real snow tires mounted for the mid December, mid March timeframe).

The new car has PPK installed and no suspension work yet. In addition it's still running the run craps. I will not go back to the runflats. I will probably opt for the Pilot A/S3 + (probably 225/40 front, 255/35 rear), again for the expanded temperature range - we intend to travel to heavily visited sites outside of summer months (too many whippersnappers in the way in the summer ; -).

The problem right now is the M-Sport suspension is at best 'clunky', it can be downright unsettled at times. It also seems to be overmatched by the PPK at times - got a good launch off a light the other day and watched TC light up on smooth, dry asphalt at about 5K in second gear; what the heck, over?

So the suspension needs to be revamped knowing that my combined spring rate will drop when I ditch the Bridgestones. I had a decent experience with the FSDs but am wondering if a Bilstein B12 kit wouldn't be as effective. I am agnostic about vendors/brands, I just want something that is agile and doesn't beat up my wife's bad back.

These are the goals:
- agile, comfortable, quick
- enhanced turn in, steering feel
- clean up sloppy rear sub-frame
- reduce NVH in suspension (clunks currently)

How should I go about meeting these goals? The wisdom of this community would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!

From everything I've read your goals are exactly the same as mine were. I lived with an E36 M3 with aftermarket suspension that both me and my wife hated. Going for rides in it used to make her angry. That car had Bilstein sports and H&R springs when I bought it. I later switched to PSS9 with no better results. On the 135 I wanted to find that perfect balance of good handling without comprising ride quality. I came across a used set of BMW P.S. locally so decided to give it a try and I'm glad I did. With the added body control the ride was actually better than stock. Handling was much improved too especially over mid corner bumps. The RSFB make an equal impact on the ride and handling of these cars. I can't emphasize that enough. If it's still available get the BMW PS you won't be disappointed.

[Cavpilot2k]

The BMW PS as a package is no longer available unless you are fortunate enough to find somebody with one in stock.
However, the shocks and springs from it are still available separately, but as I priced them out it came to around $1200 for shocks and springs.
That's tough to swallow.
I am considering the PS springs and Koni yellows.

[gjm120]

Can anyone opine on the downside of going 1 step firmer than recommended for BMWP springs? From a lot of picking up info on forums, I think my car is on the cusp for the springs recommended by BMW (T2 / T3 F / R). I'd like to have as little drop as possible.

[Cavpilot2k]

Originally Posted by gjm120

Can anyone opine on the downside of going 1 step firmer than recommended for BMWP springs? From a lot of picking up info on forums, I think my car is on the cusp for the springs recommended by BMW (T2 / T3 F / R). I'd like to have as little drop as possible.

I'd like to second that question.
I've decided on Koni Yellows and BMW Perf. springs. I have an M-sport with moonroof and I'm pretty sure the recommended setup would be T2/T3 f/r, but some have suggested switching that to T3/T2 f/r. What about T3/T3?

My 135 is a DD/spirited street car. No tracking intentions. I want a firmer ride to reduce roll, but comfy enough for daily commuting and road trips with SWMBO in the passenger seat.

I'm also planning M3 swaybar and front control arms at the same time. Already have Whiteline inserts.

[gjm120]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

I'd like to second that question.
I've decided on Koni Yellows and BMW Perf. springs. I have an M-sport with moonroof and I'm pretty sure the recommended setup would be T2/T3 f/r, but some have suggested switching that to T3/T2 f/r. What about T3/T3?

My 135 is a DD/spirited street car. No tracking intentions. I want a firmer ride to reduce roll, but comfy enough for daily commuting and road trips with SWMBO in the passenger seat.

I'm also planning M3 swaybar and front control arms at the same time. Already have Whiteline inserts.

We have pretty much the same motivation. My guess our cars are near the same weight. Mine is AT but yours is a 135i and it seems they are similar in options. T2/T3 front/rear are right for my car (2 different dealers ran my VIN).

There are discussion here from way back about people considering opting up for E90 Swift spec-R springs to reduce the drop. Don't know if anyone did it.

It would be nice to see how far off my car is from going up one category on the BMWP Springs. I.e. how many more lbs would move it into the next range? I think the dealer software is a black box - VIN in springs out.

On the other hand, I can't think of an option that would increase the weight of my car so maybe T2/T3 is it.

[John_01]

Most of the N54 cars have T3 Front, T2 Rear. If you go though the forums there is one guy on the forums who got T3 front and T3 rear. T3 all round might a good setup, but the rear will be very similar to stock height.

Personally I tried both T2 and T3 front on my N55. For my preference the T2 front was too soft and too low. T2 front might look better since its lower, but I prefer the practicality and ride quality with the T3 front springs.