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      06-09-2010, 12:12 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
Nope, won't be changing my tranny fluid and nope not from Britain and nope never worked for Jag.
When you hit 200k, can you do I UOA analysis and let us know results?

Britain and Jag was a wise ass comment.
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      06-09-2010, 12:32 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
Nope, won't be changing my tranny fluid and nope not from Britain and nope never worked for Jag.
When you hit 200k, can you do I UOA analysis and let us know results?

Britain and Jag was a wise ass comment.

Last 2 cents. Now that you are retired and have some free time on your hands ( especially since you don't change your oil that often ), you should look at Risk Management. Life is more than just Quantitative data.

WAGs?
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      06-09-2010, 12:44 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
Searching would take the fun out of forums... BTW, you could always SKIP these threads if they are boring.

BTW, I haven't seen anyone recommend babying a new vehicle. Perhaps you misread something? Beating a car is certainly your choice but it can void the warranty and definitely will reduce engine performance and lifespan from micro welding of the closely fit parts when new.
Just to be clear, when I say babying, i call following the break in procedure in the manual, "babying".

Rat and others present their case, as I have recently and I am just kind of tired of retyping the same stuff..

Want the OP to know that there are some folks who dont agree with you.

Not a big deal, and I appreciate that most folks here are respectful of each others opinions.

cheers.
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      06-13-2010, 12:26 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
Your warranty is in effect if you do. Unless YOU are paying for my warranty I'm following the car makers recommendations not forum advice. Millions of BMW owners follow BMW's recommendations every year all around the globe, with zero issues. What you chose to do is entirely up to you.

Changing the oil early is not the same as abusing your engine during break-in. One is preventive maintenance and the other damaging abuse, which can void your powertrain warranty. People go 15K on oil all the time without issue.
I believe what he was getting at is that often people cite that BMW engineers know best about "break in" as they designed and tested the cars. But, then, when it comes to following BMW's recommended maintenance intervals, which are given by those same BMW engineers who designed and tested these cars, those same people disregard the BMW manual's maintenance intervals.

The question isn't that one is "abuse" and the other is good insurance. The question is; why accept BMW's "break in" recommendation, but not the maintenance intervals? It's logically inconsistent to accept BMW's experience and knowledge in one area of mechanical operation, but then not accept BMW's experience and knowledge in another area of mechanical operation.

TrackRat:
"BMW backs your vehicle with a 50K mileage warranty if you use their prescribed break-in procedure because they have the most expertise on your engine, ...."

"If"? What "if" you don't?
Your implication is that if one must follow BMW's prescribed break-in procedure in order to have BMW's warranty backing.
That's not true.

Show me where someone has had their warranty coverage denied because they didn't follow the "break in" procedure.

I didn't follow it completely, and had no trouble with warranty in the the least.
I do think a sound break-in procedure is important for best performance of the engine, and for it's longevity. BMW's break-in recommendation also allows non engine parts to "break in" for their best use, such as; transmission, clutch, brakes, tires, water pump, etc...
Going WFO to red line in every gear as soon as you drive it off the lot, is not a sound break in procedure. But, it's not going to void your warranty either.

Also, I do use BMW's recommended maintenance intervals. I followed them for my 2003 E46, my 2006 Audi A4 (per Audi's intervals), and am following the intervals for my 135i.

Last edited by RPM90; 06-13-2010 at 12:39 AM.
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      06-13-2010, 12:47 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
You can change your oil everyday if it makes you happy. It makes no difference to me. A $25 UOA will tell you if the oil is still serviceable and what contaminants are present at 15K or whatever OCI you desire. No guessing required.

Obviously when BMW is paying for engine damage for the first 50K or four years, if they thought 15K OCI's were an issue they'd change it to a lower mileage. People have used 18K OCI's in Europe for years without issue. I suspect BMW has a lot more statistics on this subject than you but if not please enlighten us.
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Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
I won't retire until they plant me in the ground...

WAGs = Wild Ass Guesses

WAGs are similar to SWAGs = Scientific Wild Ass Guesses - except WAGs have no science just opinion.

BTW, I do UOA on every drain in my cars and have for 25 years. You'd be surprised how good newer spec oils are.
Wonder what your Transmission UOA looks like?

Agree newer spec oils are better now. Could you give us a 20 year %improvement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
I believe what he was getting at is that often people cite that BMW engineers know best about "break in" as they designed and tested the cars. But, then, when it comes to following BMW's recommended maintenance intervals, which are given by those same BMW engineers who designed and tested these cars, those same people disregard the BMW manual's maintenance intervals.

The question isn't that one is "abuse" and the other is good insurance. The question is; why accept BMW's "break in" recommendation, but not the maintenance intervals? It's logically inconsistent to accept BMW's experience and knowledge in one area of mechanical operation, but then not accept BMW's experience and knowledge in another area of mechanical operation.
It appears TrackRat is getting caught in a pickle?
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      06-13-2010, 02:55 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB135MDCT View Post

I know quite a few who go by BMW recommended intervals and they have nothing but problems. And those that change there oil sooner than later go hundreds of thousands of miles with not a puff of blue smoke. So please stop misleading the peonage.
Really?
You know quite a few with nothing but problems due to following BMW's intervals?
I doubt it.

I've been on BMW forums for about a decade, and BMW's are NOT known for having engine problems due to following BMW's oil service intervals.
If this were such a big problem, as you allude to, then it would be a known issue. But, we don't hear that, and it's not a known common issue.

It is quite misleading to scare people into changing their oil sooner than they need to. I have nothing against owners who do change their oil before the recommended interval, but there is no large body of evidence to show there are problems by following the recommended interval.
So, it comes down to personal choice and beliefs.
Personally, I don't subscribe to belief systems when it comes to things mechanical, as mechanics is based on science.
Believing your engine will last longer if you change your oil at 3k instead of 10k, doesn't mean it will, and conversely it doesn't mean your engine will die sooner if you follow the proper intervals either.

The only interval that doesn't make sense to me is changing your fully synthetic, 7 quarts of oil, before the 5k mark.
Unless you've done a real analysis of your engine, and it shows that your oil is not holding up, I consider that interval to be a waste of money, time, and natural resources.
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      06-13-2010, 03:06 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB135MDCT View Post
^ We need to have a long discussion over many shots of espresso. My fingers are going to fall off.

Grew up poor, have been fixing and working since I was little. Many 100k miles under my belt. Oil/filter change is 45 bucks, filter inspections, monitor mpg, All cheap insurance. Again, Can you explain why BMW delaships sell non-certfied preowned cars with <50k?
First, at least 50% of US BMW sales are leases.
Most of those are 3 yr leases resulting in mileage anywhere from 30k to 45k. BMW dealers can acquire these cars from auctions.
The dealer can choose to have the car "certified", and that costs money.
Certified cars also cost more in the market.
So, a dealer may decide that he can sell more BMW's if he keeps the price lower by not having it "certified". On the other hand, another dealer may feel that he can sell more BMW's by having the certified warranty, even though that car may cost more. It's a business decision dealers have to make.

Plus, the dealers have to decide which cars are worth certifying and which ones are not. If the vehicle is in exceptional cosmetic condition, then it may garner a certified warranty as it's more appealing to certain buyers.
If the car has been heavily used, then the added cost of certification may price the car out of the market due to it's poor cosmetic condition.

So, the answer is; it depends on a number of factors within the given market.
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      06-13-2010, 03:16 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB135MDCT View Post
Wonder what your Transmission UOA looks like?

Agree newer spec oils are better now. Could you give us a 20 year %improvement?



It appears TrackRat is getting caught in a pickle?
Actually, he's been consistent in his views about following manufacturer recommendations.

My comments about the inconsistency were not directed at him, but at the whole subject. There have been quite a number of posters on this topic in many threads who recommend the BMW break in procedure, and then those same posters get on an oil thread and say the maintenance intervals are because BMW just wants to save money.
That's the illogical poster.
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      06-13-2010, 02:43 PM   #31
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It would be illogical to never change your transmission oil, to be consistent, TrackRat can't answer my question and probably never will, probably due to some hidden agenda.

It would be illogical to think BMW and dealers are not in the business to make money. Since invent of BMW Free Maintenance and comparing to other manufs maintain intervals, there is a huge discrepency. There is a short term model involved with a lot of variables, some of which have nothing to do with long term ownership. Throw Europe into the equation and the business model gets even more complicated.

Forums are for enthusiasts, BMW recommended is for the guy who doesn't know how to check or change his own oil.
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      06-13-2010, 10:23 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB135MDCT View Post
It would be illogical to never change your transmission oil, to be consistent, TrackRat can't answer my question and probably never will, probably due to some hidden agenda.

It would be illogical to think BMW and dealers are not in the business to make money. Since invent of BMW Free Maintenance and comparing to other manufs maintain intervals, there is a huge discrepency. There is a short term model involved with a lot of variables, some of which have nothing to do with long term ownership. Throw Europe into the equation and the business model gets even more complicated.

Forums are for enthusiasts, BMW recommended is for the guy who doesn't know how to check or change his own oil.

What? What are you talking about in your second paragraph?
Who said that BMW or any dealer is not in business for the money?
Address the points given if you have something to agree or disagree with.
Redefining the question to suit your ability to answer it, is pointless here.

You asked why some lower mileage BMW's are sold without a certified warranty. I gave you some reasons why.
I have no idea what you're discussing now.

Car forums are full of enthusiastic people for sure. That certainly doesn't translate into, enthusiasts know more about cars than BMW engineers.
Enthusiasts can often become over-enthusiastic and promote the concept that more oil changes at lower mileages will result in longer lived engines.
There are enthusiasts who still believe that oil should be changed at 3k and 2k miles. I don't care how enthusiastic they are about that, it's a waste of time, money, and resources.
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      06-14-2010, 12:04 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
First, at least 50% of US BMW sales are leases.
Most of those are 3 yr leases resulting in mileage anywhere from 30k to 45k. BMW dealers can acquire these cars from auctions.
The dealer can choose to have the car "certified", and that costs money.
Certified cars also cost more in the market.
So, a dealer may decide that he can sell more BMW's if he keeps the price lower by not having it "certified". On the other hand, another dealer may feel that he can sell more BMW's by having the certified warranty, even though that car may cost more. It's a business decision dealers have to make.

Plus, the dealers have to decide which cars are worth certifying and which ones are not. If the vehicle is in exceptional cosmetic condition, then it may garner a certified warranty as it's more appealing to certain buyers.
If the car has been heavily used, then the added cost of certification may price the car out of the market due to it's poor cosmetic condition.

So, the answer is; it depends on a number of factors within the given market.
I don't want to go off, but I must. I've seen plenty of auctioned off BMW off leases that are cosmetically beautiful. That is from a BMW dealer to a non-BMW dealer ( with 1 month warranty). We are not talking about cosmetics. We are not taking about market. Stick to the topic. And if its cosmetically perfect then it should be certified, correct?
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      06-14-2010, 12:37 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
What? What are you talking about in your second paragraph?
Who said that BMW or any dealer is not in business for the money?
Address the points given if you have something to agree or disagree with.
Redefining the question to suit your ability to answer it, is pointless here.

You asked why some lower mileage BMW's are sold without a certified warranty. I gave you some reasons why.
I have no idea what you're discussing now.

Car forums are full of enthusiastic people for sure. That certainly doesn't translate into, enthusiasts know more about cars than BMW engineers.
Enthusiasts can often become over-enthusiastic and promote the concept that more oil changes at lower mileages will result in longer lived engines.
There are enthusiasts who still believe that oil should be changed at 3k and 2k miles. I don't care how enthusiastic they are about that, it's a waste of time, money, and resources.
Woops, got out of sequence. Calm down man. What I was trying to say was that BMW burns less money with longer intervals. Other car manufs make more money with more frequent intervals. Do the math.

You seem to defend BMW engineers rigorously. The same engineers that designed the rear sub-frame of the e36/46? I could go on and on. Majority of the time they do a fine job.

I think your missing the point of forums. Perhaps we have a different understanding of what an enthusiast is? Your use of the term is insulting.

Lets have a poll, Who's engine will live longest? 3k or 18k OCI? Pick one
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      05-24-2011, 10:39 AM   #35
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Performing moderate engine de-acceleration, or engine braking from 4000/rpm should be done as it applies a different pressure on the piston ring. This WILL NOT suck oil into the combustion chamber, I don't care who say's it will, it won't.

This is every engine builder's suggestion. BMW is not going to write a 30 page report for every retard that has the money to purchase one. So instead they write a concise, easy for the average "schmuck" suggestion on engine break-in.

Any one who argues this simple and logical explanation is just retarded. This is engine 101 guys.....


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