Reason of Limited Production Conjecture

[Madozu]

Originally Posted by BMWDAD

So is it limited or not?

Limited in time (it sure will be but for what duration?) or limited in numbers (2700?)

Scott? ^^

[Technic]

Originally Posted by ptack

What in the world makes you think they're going to offer an M that outperforms (though probably not by a lot) a 335is for a penny less than a 335is?

BMW gave themselves no room either pricing or performance with this car. It has to fill the tiny little gap between the 335is and the M3 both in price and performance. The limited production acknowledges how thin this market slice is.

Exactly.

The 335is is the monkey wrench.

And perhaps people here in the forum don't want to acknowledge that there is a $57000 M3 Sedan to deal with. Yes, it is a Sedan and not a Coupe however it is still an M3.

So a 1 Series with most of the M3 bits (differential, suspension, seats, brakes, wheels) plus new fenders and bumpers will be very un-BMW to price this sucker below the 335is.

BMW already messed up the whole startup M pricing scheme in the US, with the 335is and the Z4is.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Technic

Exactly.

The 335is is the monkey wrench.

And perhaps people here in the forum don't want to acknowledge that there is a $57000 M3 Sedan to deal with. Yes, it is a Sedan and not a Coupe however it is still an M3.

So a 1 Series with most of the M3 bits (differential, suspension, seats, brakes, wheels) plus new fenders and bumpers will be very un-BMW to price this sucker below the 335is.

BMW already messed up the whole startup M pricing scheme in the US, with the 335is and the Z4is.

So you guys think 1M price will be BETWEEN 335iS and M3? As in HIGHER base price than 335iS $50150?

Yeoch!

That opinion seems to me to conflict with official
Also in BMW M who stated "price will be between 135i and M3 with clear preference toward 135i". I read that as the price will be closer to 135i price than M3 price. Since there is $22k difference between them, I expect 1M to be LESS THAN $11k over 135i price of $36k; $45k - $46k maybe.

[Technic]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

So you guys think 1M price will be BETWEEN 335iS and M3? As in HIGHER base price than 335iS $50150?

Yeoch!

That opinion seems to me to conflict with official
Also in BMW M who stated "price will be between 135i and M3 with clear preference toward 135i". I read that as the price will be closer to 135i price than M3 price. Since there is $22k difference between them, I expect 1M to be LESS THAN $11k over 135i price of $36k; $45k - $46k maybe.

If by looking at what BMW is doing with the is models (335i vs 335is = $7000, Z4 vs Z4is = $9150) then I cannot expect a 1M model to be just $10000 over a 135i. That would be some $5000 less than a 335is.

That does not make any marketing sense to me, however BMW already did that by making the Z4is more expensive than a M3 Coupe, when it used to be that the Z4M was more expensive than a M3 Coupe.

So yes, the pileup of model pricing and the convolution of the M brand is just in the beginning.

[technik330]

^

Read the C&D Review of the 1M - Price is estimated to be around $43k-

@ any idea of the price being higher than the 335iS; that's just illogical, on all levels, and directly contradicts the ideology of building an affordable ///M car, as per Dr. K's interview on the 1m.

Thanks,

[Technic]

Originally Posted by technik330

^

Read the C&D Review of the 1M - Price is estimated to be around $43k-

@ any idea of the price being higher than the 335iS; that's just illogical, on all levels, and directly contradicts the ideology of building an affordable ///M car, as per Dr. K's interview on the 1m.

Thanks,

Illogical is a MSRP of $43K when that buys you a 135i with Sport Package, the Peformance ECU tuning, exhaust and dealer install. No new bodywork, no M3 differential, MDM, brakes, seats, suspension and no M-tuned engine.

Throw a limited production schedule and there no reason that BMW cannot price this sucker higher than a 335is, even if it is $10 over. People will buy them all and still will be the most "affordable" M.

[technik330]

^

I understand where you're coming from; however it's completely contradictory to what the whole goal of this car, an affordable ///M car. There's a post by Scott noting this car will have optional features that are normally found standard on ///M cars, in an effort to keep the cost down.

With that said; I wouldn't exactly expect a car that has optional features, of which are standard on higher ///M cars, to be coming in at a remotely close MSRP to that of the pinnacle of the ///M series (M3)...it just wouldn't make any sense.

Making a 50k+ MSRP starting point isn't an example of an affordable entry level ///M car.

Did you happen to read the article I mentioned? The 1M is estimated to come in at around $43k, even if it's $45k that's still a lot less than an ///M3 Sedan/Coupe. Even if it were to come in at $45k, that's still $5k and chance from the base price of a 335iS w/ destination etc.

[Technic]

My opinion is based on this marketing fact... the new "is" line. Either the M Division is now below the "is" in the order of BMW things or this "affordable" M is because it will be cheaper than the M3 but above the 335is.

Pick one.

[The1]

I'll bet BMW doesn't know where to price it yet

all the marketing people are probably cursing themselves for letting slip that they wanted it to be affordable.

and probably saying "damn, why did Dr. K say that, wasn't anyone watching what he was saying!!!!"

[cpippolo]

Originally Posted by Technic

My opinion is based on this marketing fact... the new "is" line. Either the M Division is now below the "is" in the order of BMW things or this "affordable" M is because it will be cheaper than the M3 but above the 335is.

Pick one.

But your opinion ignores this quote from BMW,

M-Power.com: Where will the price be then?
Biermann: The price has not been fixed yet. However, I’m sure that it will lie somewhere between the 135i Coupé and the M3 Coupé, with a clear tendency towards the 135i.

and all the estimates from the US car magazines. I think they are going to get there by making it a stripper, consistent with some of SCOTT26's comments that they wont include all the usual M features amd his most recent comment that the rear seats wont even fold down. I hope they allow for some optional features. This will be my daily driver so if they strip too much out that may put me back into the 135i.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by cpippolo

But your opinion ignores this quote from BMW,



and all the estimates from the US car magazines. I think they are going to get there by making it a stripper, consistent with some of SCOTT26's comments that they wont include all the usual M features amd his most recent comment that the rear seats wont even fold down. I hope they allow for some optional features. This will be my daily driver so if they strip too much out that may put me back into the 135i.

I agree - if it's too stripped and un-optionable, I'm off to find a low miles CPO M3.

[spiderz17]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

I agree - if it's too stripped and un-optionable, I'm off to find a low miles CPO M3.

Maybe that's the whole point of the 1M: dangle a tantalizing possibility in front of you that doesn't quite materialize like you want, but you're already mentally committed to buying an ///M, so you just end up buying an M3. So the 1M is just an elaborate scheme to boost disappointing M3 sales.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by spiderz17

Maybe that's the whole point of the 1M: dangle a tantalizing possibility in front of you that doesn't quite materialize like you want, but you're already mentally committed to buying an ///M, so you just end up buying an M3. So the 1M is just an elaborate scheme to boost disappointing M3 sales.

May be! I'm torn anyway; I'd honestly rather have an M3 than 1M. More room, great, N/A engine. A few factors increase my interest in 1M: Euro Delivery, unique/rare, and it's new rather than pre-owned (Unwilling to pony up $65k+ for new M3).

[Technic]

Originally Posted by cpippolo

But your opinion ignores this quote from BMW,



and all the estimates from the US car magazines. I think they are going to get there by making it a stripper, consistent with some of SCOTT26's comments that they wont include all the usual M features amd his most recent comment that the rear seats wont even fold down. I hope they allow for some optional features. This will be my daily driver so if they strip too much out that may put me back into the 135i.

Well, the quote does not mention the 335is price, isn't it? Therefore the price range is between $37k and $60k...

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Technic

Well, the quote does not mention the 335is price, isn't it? Therefore the price range is between $37k and $60k...

They also stated it would be closer to 135 than M3, so figure (60-37)/2 = 11.5.

Thus it's reasonable to expect 1M will be less than 37 + 11.5, which is 48.5.

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by Technic

My opinion is based on this marketing fact... the new "is" line. Either the M Division is now below the "is" in the order of BMW things or this "affordable" M is because it will be cheaper than the M3 but above the 335is.

Pick one.

Why would the M Division be "below" the iS cars if the 1M is priced below the 335iS? The M Division and Dr. Segler have been continually talking about making an affordable M car (relative to the current products) to appeal to a younger demographic. Even if the 1M ends up being less expensive than a 335iS, both cars serve different purposes. In my opinion, the 1M would be a focused driver's/track car that is getting back to basics by leaving out expensive options like DCT, carbon fiber, etc. It would sort of be like a new age E30 M3 that people have been begging for. The 335iS on the other hand, is the offering for people looking for a bigger, more luxurious sports coupe with additional power than a regular 335, and having the option of DCT. Sure there is the M3, but not everyone may want a thirsty V8 or they just can't afford it, so the 335iS is their compromise.

[technik330]

Originally Posted by JasonCSU

Why would the M Division be "below" the iS cars if the 1M is priced below the 335iS? The M Division and Dr. Segler have been continually talking about making an affordable M car (relative to the current products) to appeal to a younger demographic. Even if the 1M ends up being less expensive than a 335iS, both cars serve different purposes. In my opinion, the 1M would be a focused driver's/track car that is getting back to basics by leaving out expensive options like DCT, carbon fiber, etc. It would sort of be like a new age E30 M3 that people have been begging for. The 335iS on the other hand, is the offering for people looking for a bigger, more luxurious sports coupe with additional power than a regular 335, and having the option of DCT. Sure there is the M3, but not everyone may want a thirsty V8 or they just can't afford it, so the 335iS is their compromise.

This is, literally, what I was seeking to get across- Thank you

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by technik330

This is, literally, what I was seeking to get across- Thank you

Glad to be of service.

[trahsub]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

I agree - if it's too stripped and un-optionable, I'm off to find a low miles CPO M3.

Man, I've salivated for a non-optioned M car for quite a while. Gimme no sunroof, cloth seats, basic stereo/HVAC, and that is it. If that's how they keep the price low on this thing, fine by me.

[Denso]

I dont understand the dilema here. The 1 series and 3 series are in different market sectors. The 335is is availkable for $$$ and the 135i is $$$ all the talk about the 1m at 50k is mad !!! BMW will price it at what the market will pay or at least what they believe the market will pay. Remember it is meant to be an affordable M car alla focus rs or civic type r are to there relative manufacturers. If BMW get the pricing wrong there are an awful lot of nearly new m3's on the forecourts to buy instead for the kijnd of money you guys are mentioning here. Personally speaking 40k is a reasonable starting price with some select options taking it to about 43k otherwise get that nearly new M3.

[Technic]

Originally Posted by JasonCSU

Why would the M Division be "below" the iS cars if the 1M is priced below the 335iS? The M Division and Dr. Segler have been continually talking about making an affordable M car (relative to the current products) to appeal to a younger demographic. Even if the 1M ends up being less expensive than a 335iS, both cars serve different purposes. In my opinion, the 1M would be a focused driver's/track car that is getting back to basics by leaving out expensive options like DCT, carbon fiber, etc. It would sort of be like a new age E30 M3 that people have been begging for. The 335iS on the other hand, is the offering for people looking for a bigger, more luxurious sports coupe with additional power than a regular 335, and having the option of DCT. Sure there is the M3, but not everyone may want a thirsty V8 or they just can't afford it, so the 335iS is their compromise.

I guess that the days of the M Division are over, and now it is just another trim package, then.

Again... affordable and limited procution/schedule are two conflicting things. And if you add the "is" line then -to me- it does not make any profit sense to offer something that it is to be limited cheaper than a full production model while at the same time offering much more standard equipment and all out performance.

This is not a folding hardtop convertible as the Z4, which by itself commands a premium -and still I don't agree either with the pricing scheme of the Z4is against the M3 Coupe.

The quote from Dr. Segler is clear -at least to me... the 1M will be priced between the 135i and the M3 Coupe. Not between the 135i and the 335is, not between the 135i and the M3 Sedan. I think that this "affordable" label will be applied to the next, 4-cylinder turbo 1M. But not to this one.

Over and out...