advantages of heel-toe downshifting...???

[cholewski]

wow, thanks for all the input. looking around youtube, i found this, it's another good video showing the footwork for heel-toe downshifing...

[J Tyler]

[quote=mugennosora;4506626]1. pro-car usually has ABS, it won't lock up.
2. going that fast i don't think they would gear brake for any reason, it's asking to drift...heel toe doesn't gear brake, you rev to match the gear.
3. again back to 2. engine brake, gear brake how ever you call it.
4. if not 1,2,3 then can't be 4.

1) No they don't, what car are you talking about? GrandAm cars? No. ALMS cars? No. Any Formula car? No. And besides that, even if a car has ABS, it doesn't react until AFTER the tire has locked.

2) No idea what you're talking about, I said you DON'T want to use the engine/clutch to slow the car down.

it's purely to keep power by the time we are getting out of the corner, and doing it in a fairly fast and efficiently.

No it's not. You can "keep power" without heel-toeing. You WILL upset the balance of the car and/or lock the rear wheels and/or burn up the clutch and/or bang a valve, if you don't heel-toe.

Originally Posted by mugennosora

oh let me add, incase someone comes in and said "it's to increase cornering angle!!!"

that's called left foot braking. heel toe doesn't increase your corning angle. it just allow you to keep power while slowing down in one step. it does the same thing if you just purely rev down shift and slow down while entering the corner.

What are you talking about? "cornering angle"?

[mugennosora]

I don't think brake slow down then rev with out heel toeing is going to lock it up, nor has ever seen it or hear it before...sorry my mom's friend is pro GT-R restoration/driver in japan, he was the one that taught me how to do heel toe, and i also learn that there is many way that i can do the same with out heel toeing...and if you had ABS and you still lock up, you need to throw away your car. seriously I've been driving my 1 with out heel toeing, simply just brake, then clutch and rev shift, it does the same, and it'll not lock up the rear.

proof me wrong show me someone lock up the rear and blow up their valve and burn their clutch from not heel toeing and still drive fast. (without miss shifting, or jam their gear from down from 4-2 or 3-1)


cornering angle (fix under or over steering)

i would like to see a F1 heel toe, because F1 or those super cars don't use foot clutch. so why would you heel toe??????

and i missed read the 3rd one, it's my fault..i was trying to said, if you heel toe that wouldn't happen....

you are comparing different kind of brake concepts and use.. we're are talking about driving that actually involves the use of heel toe.. i don't see why driving in circles would need heel toe...

[cholewski]

While were at it, I see the phrase "rev shift" being thrown around alot. What exactly is that? BTW, thanks to everyone for replying to this thread, this is such a useful forum to be a part of for someone who is just getting into motorsports, like me. Thx!

[mugennosora]

basically you rev to match the RPM range when you down shift.

[SpeedballTrix]

I would really not try to go against J_Tyler when it comes to driving technique. He's almost certainly a better race driver than any of us here.
Check out the video in his signature.

If you do not downshift mid-corner (while you are decelerating) you have to do it coming out of the corner (accelerating). The sudden application of power to the wheels will almost certainly break traction. When you do it midcorner you are increasing revs but (by the time you let the clutch out) you are at zero throttle and therefore actually producing very little power.

This is in addition to the reasons already given in the other posts =P

For us big-footed americans (no offense intended, it's simply anatomy) don't think of it as heel-toe, think of it as ball-toe.
You use the toe part of your shoe to break (which can be funky to get used to) and the ball of your foot to blip the throttle. It's great for you if you have small enough feet that you can actually use your heel, but most americans (that I know, anyway) simply have feet too big to do this, and if they try it just messes everything up.

To the problem with being unable to get the stick into gear: It's easy when quickshifting to fail to depress the clutch all the way and hold it until the stick is through all the gates and synchros. I practice my heel-toe (ball) downshifting every nice day on my break at work and I can't tell you how many times I've left the clutch up a bit and either ground the gear (which sounds like you've completely bombed your tranny... scarry as hell) or simply been unable to get the stick in.
- You have to make sure that the revs are high enough. If the flywheel speed is not equal to the input shaft speed you put tremendous pressure on the clutch and can literally blow it to pieces (I've seen it).
- And you have to make sure the clutch is ALL the way down or you can create additional wear on your gates and synchros and can actually damage the shift linkages by applying excessive force as you try to force the stick into gear. Also, if the cluthc isnt all the way down and you dont get the stick all the way into gear when you let up on the clutch you will be thanked by some nasty sounds and some nice wear on your tranny.

[mechanicalmagic]

It's obvious that some folks here have a great deal of knowledge, while others are "post whores".

To the OP, you might get a copy of "Going Faster! The Skip Barber Racing School". It's about $15 used on Amazon. It's not a Bible, but at least they are credible. Some info here does not meet that criteria.

DJ

[gnpower]

The rears would not lock, but a significant amount of wheel speed would be lost due to engine brake. The wheels would be spinning, just not at fast as the car is traveling so possible slide could occur.

[mugennosora]

Originally Posted by mechanicalmagic

It's obvious that some folks here have a great deal of knowledge, while others are "post whores".

To the OP, you might get a copy of "Going Faster! The Skip Barber Racing School". It's about $15 used on Amazon. It's not a Bible, but at least they are credible. Some info here does not meet that criteria.

DJ

although you might think J Tyler would have absolutely the right knowledge since he works in the field, I don't think my operational knowledge is any less than his, I've been driving since I was 16 in japan (so I've been driving for 10 years), I driven many touge's and hair pins in japan+ my knowledge comes directly from my mother's friend who works in that field. that i think it's as good if not better than J tyler, while he find my information questionable. I think it's obvious Heel toe is not that crazy of a deal, in japan, even first time driver little kid can perform heel toe...he just made it sound to be some crazy stuff that does so much.

[mugennosora]

Originally Posted by gnpower

The rears would not lock, but a significant amount of wheel speed would be lost due to engine brake. The wheels would be spinning, just not at fast as the car is traveling so possible slide could occur.

thank you, if the rears locks up J-Tyler might as well takeout his ABS controller and save some weight in his car, because in his case, ABS does jack for him.

[Alow]

Originally Posted by mechanicalmagic

To the OP, you might get a copy of "Going Faster! The Skip Barber Racing School". It's about $15 used on Amazon. It's not a Bible, but at least they are credible. Some info here does not meet that criteria.
DJ

Of all your posts, this is one that is actually good advice that everyone can understand.

I have said book. It does have a section on heel-toe downshifting, the technique to do it and why you should do it. A good read indeed.

[Guildenstern]

And a better authority then a 26 year old driving on public Roads. Everyone thinks they are an awsome driver on the street. It's funny how those usualy are the people in the back 1/2 of the pack when they are put on a track.

[mugennosora]

yeah and a 29 year old is totally enough to tell a 26 year old Ph.D in Computer Science and physics who he is. No thank you. I don't race my car even if i had the knowledge. once in a while i do pull a quick corner, but i don't race my car.

[AlienDNA]

If NASCAR is good for anything, the Sears Point (I refuse to call it Infineon) race is great for showing the difference that heel & toe can make, especially going into Turn 11. This is a great clip of Boris Said going around Sears Point. The three camera shot shows the feet, the windscreen view and the car on the track so you can understand how it all comes together.

I didn't look for a clip that shows what happens when you don't heel & toe, but I'm pretty sure a search of "Infineon" and "Jimmy Spencer" or "Sterling Marlin" will find one.

As axoid said way back on page one, though, it's not a technique you'll use much in autocross.

[Guildenstern]

Originally Posted by mugennosora

yeah and a 29 year old is totally enough to tell a 26 year old Ph.D in Computer Science and physics who he is. No thank you. I don't race my car even if i had the knowledge. once in a while i do pull a quick corner, but i don't race my car.

Oh computer science..........cool.....

So then if you don't race your car, why are you coming here presenting yourself to be an authority? Because some Frend of your moms used to race? Come on "Doctor"

[J Tyler]

Originally Posted by mugennosora

I don't think brake slow down then rev with out heel toeing is going to lock it up, nor has ever seen it or hear it before...sorry my mom's friend is pro GT-R restoration/driver in japan, he was the one that taught me how to do heel toe, and i also learn that there is many way that i can do the same with out heel toeing...and if you had ABS and you still lock up, you need to throw away your car. seriously I've been driving my 1 with out heel toeing, simply just brake, then clutch and rev shift, it does the same, and it'll not lock up the rear.

proof me wrong show me someone lock up the rear and blow up their valve and burn their clutch from not heel toeing and still drive fast. (without miss shifting, or jam their gear from down from 4-2 or 3-1)


cornering angle (fix under or over steering)

i would like to see a F1 heel toe, because F1 or those super cars don't use foot clutch. so why would you heel toe??????

and i missed read the 3rd one, it's my fault..i was trying to said, if you heel toe that wouldn't happen....

you are comparing different kind of brake concepts and use.. we're are talking about driving that actually involves the use of heel toe.. i don't see why driving in circles would need heel toe...

GTR's drive themselves. Seriously, anyone with a little track driving experience can go fast in a GTR. I see it all the time

Prove you wrong? I can't prove anything, it's an internet forum. I'm just speaking from experience and knowledge.

I have no idea why you brought up F1 cars, they have pneumatics for the clutch & gearshifting and the ECU automatically blips the throttle on downshifts. They heel-toe electronically

Originally Posted by mechanicalmagic

It's obvious that some folks here have a great deal of knowledge, while others are "post whores".

To the OP, you might get a copy of "Going Faster! The Skip Barber Racing School". It's about $15 used on Amazon. It's not a Bible, but at least they are credible. Some info here does not meet that criteria.

DJ

The Skippy book is great, especially for a beginner. However, I disagree with the chapter on Shifting in that book. Skip used to teach double-clutch downshifting at their schools, which is what the book teaches. That technique is more complicated than regular heel-toe downshifting, and it's unnecessary. The instructors realized that they were wasting time with confused students, and recently they decided to only teach regular heel-toe ("single-clutch") downshifting.

- So keep that in mind when reading that book. Otherwise it's all pretty solid info.

Originally Posted by gnpower

The rears would not lock, but a significant amount of wheel speed would be lost due to engine brake. The wheels would be spinning, just not at fast as the car is traveling so possible slide could occur.

Whether or not the rears would lock depends on a lot of things (that's why I said they might lock in my original post), but I guarantee you that if you're braking at the limit of all 4 tires and you suddenly let the clutch out in a low gear at low rpms, the rears WILL lock, ABS or no ABS.

Originally Posted by mugennosora

although you might think J Tyler would have absolutely the right knowledge since he works in the field, I don't think my operational knowledge is any less than his, I've been driving since I was 16 in japan (so I've been driving for 10 years), I driven many touge's and hair pins in japan+ my knowledge comes directly from my mother's friend who works in that field. that i think it's as good if not better than J tyler, while he find my information questionable. I think it's obvious Heel toe is not that crazy of a deal, in japan, even first time driver little kid can perform heel toe...he just made it sound to be some crazy stuff that does so much.

I've been racing since I was 14. I've been getting paid to do it since I was 19

Originally Posted by AlienDNA

If NASCAR is good for anything, the Sears Point (I refuse to call it Infineon) race is great for showing the difference that heel & toe can make, especially going into Turn 11. This is a great clip of Boris Said going around Sears Point. The three camera shot shows the feet, the windscreen view and the car on the track so you can understand how it all comes together.

I didn't look for a clip that shows what happens when you don't heel & toe, but I'm pretty sure a search of "Infineon" and "Jimmy Spencer" or "Sterling Marlin" will find one.

As axoid said way back on page one, though, it's not a technique you'll use much in autocross.

LOL. Good post.

[AlienDNA]

Originally Posted by J Tyler

The Skippy book is great, especially for a beginner. However, I disagree with the chapter on Shifting in that book. Skip used to teach double-clutch downshifting at their schools, which is what the book teaches. That technique is more complicated than regular heel-toe downshifting, and it's unnecessary. The instructors realized that they were wasting time with confused students, and recently they decided to only teach regular heel-toe ("single-clutch") downshifting.

- So keep that in mind when reading that book. Otherwise it's all pretty solid info.

You must have the original ('97?) edition. I dug up my copy the other day getting the baby's room ready and just took a look. I've got the '01 edition, and they break out the chapter into heel & toe (for synchronized transmissions) and double-clutch (for crash boxes). It seems like they spend twice as much time on the double-clutch, but (correct me if I'm wrong) isn't that because when it was originally written, Barber schools were Formula cars only, and all they had was non-synchro education?

Anyhow, good advice - ignore the double-clutch instructions, and the theory at the beginning of the chapter is a good explanation about why you want to match revs under braking.

[fourtailpipes]

i see plenty of replies addressing the "smoothness" advantage of heel-toe (not disrupting the car with erratic fluctuations in the rear axle speed... this is the advantage of rev-matching), but the major purpose of heel-toe in a racetrack scenario is to save time before entering a corner by multitasking.

working in REVERSE chronological order from turn-in back to the initial braking point, if you don't heel-toe, you have to downshift before you turn in, but after you brake. during the time you spend performing the downshift, you are neither accelerating nor braking. you must therefore leave yourself some "coasting room" between finishing your braking and your turn-in point. this is wasteful.

by using heel-toe, you perform the downshift while you're braking. this means that you are able to turn in as you have completed your braking, which means that you can brake later, and therefore stay on the gas longer. this paves the way for trail braking, since you're just coming off the brakes as you're turning in, but that's a different discussion.

simply put, approaching any given turn, if you cover 15 feet performing your downshift between braking and turning in, you could brake 15 feet later and accomplish the same braking and downshift by the time you get to the turn-in point if using heel-toe.

[akak1997]

I'm a noob and still learning how to heel-toe. I found it very difficult to keep a constant pressure on the brake while bliping the throttle. the Stock gas pedal is a tad too far for me to do "ball-toe" and it's even more difficult to do heal-toe, coz the pivot point of the gas pedal is at the bottom, so you've to really raise the heel higher up to effectively blip the throttle. This is even harder when you are not braking Hard (i.e. on service streets), coz w/o fully depressing the brake, the distance to blip the throttle is even further.

Then, I decided to get some performance pedals that has an extension at the top of the gas pedal. This makes it so much easier to keep a constant pressure on the brake while hitting the gas. But then, I've to be more careful when braking and not hit the gas at the same time.

[fourtailpipes]

i've been fine with all the OEM pedals in all the BMW's i've had (e36 325, e46 328, e46 m3, now 135i), but needed aftermarket pedals in the audi s4. for the bimmers, i leave my heel on the floor half overlapping the gas pedal. i use the ball of my foot just under my big toe for the brake pedal, which leaves the right side of my right foot covering the left side of the gas pedal. i dont move my heel at all, just "roll the ball" of my foot to the right to get the gas.

[penny]

Cholewski -- To make you feel any better... after reading this post last night I went out for a ride. I sucked ass with the heel-toe. As stated above, the gap between the pedals are too wide for me.

[fourtailpipes]

i was originally told to start with the ball of my foot on the brake pedal with my heel straight below, then to pick up my heel and pivot my heel to the right to get the lower part of the gas pedal with my heel. this is mechanically bass-ackwards when the gas pedal hinges at the bottom.

try starting with your heel planted more in front of the gas pedal, tilting leftward to get the brake pedal with the left side of the ball of your foot. now roll the ball of your foot to the right. this way part of your foot is already overlapping the gas at all times, and is avalable for a blip. this way, the entire right side of your right foot is over the gas at all times to blip.