stock air box over dual cone - high heat

[BahamaBart]

A larger IC will produce minimum benefit. I went threw 4 IC's on my previous car - some flowed better but this comes at a cost of thermal efficiency. Others were more thermal efficient but at the cost of pressure drop. The only time in my opinion that you swap out the IC is when you are running at much higher boost levels and you need more flow.

If you want that winter friskyness in the summer then water/meth is the solution. With water/meth you will drop your temps BELOW ambient which no IC can do.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by BahamaBart

A larger IC will produce minimum benefit.

I have done extensive datalogging of my stock versus aftermarket intercooler (with tune).

On a single 3rd gear only pull from 3K rpm to 6K rpm, stock intake temps rise about 25-30 degrees F.

Same pull on my VK intercooler and I see temps rise about 4-5 degrees F.

Can't see how that isn't beneficial.

But your point about ambient temps is very true.

No intercooler is ever going to drop intake temps below ambient.....only meth can do that.

But for those not willing to run Meth, an aftermarket intercooler is the next best choice in terms of dropping intake temps.

[ErvGotti]

Originally Posted by BahamaBart

A larger IC will produce minimum benefit. I went threw 4 IC's on my previous car - some flowed better but this comes at a cost of thermal efficiency. Others were more thermal efficient but at the cost of pressure drop. The only time in my opinion that you swap out the IC is when you are running at much higher boost levels and you need more flow.

If you want that winter friskyness in the summer then water/meth is the solution. With water/meth you will drop your temps BELOW ambient which no IC can do.

Yeah I agree, I probably wont be tracking the car much in the summer more like fall through spring. Heat's definitly is bad for the car wheather it's cooling the radiator,FMIC,or brakes. I still belive the car will benifit from a more efficient FMIC than stock.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by maxnix

Oh, I would say the larger and more efficient intercooler is the best choice. Remember, water and even methanol displace O2, so less is available for combustion.

Methanol and water are just band aids for mistunes. Why don't any OEM run such systems if they are beneficial? Because they don't mistune their cars! Doh!

Don't disagree ......but there is tons of data on these forums that suggests methanol increases the octane rating of regular pump gas and increases power.

Using your logic.....injecting nitrous would also displace O2 and not be beneficial, yet we all know that people who run the bottle make huge power gains (albeit not very safely).

As to why OEM's do not include such systems?.......a whole host of factors probably apply:

1) Inconvenience of a consumer having to purchase and fill two separate fuel sources.

2) The majority of automotive consumers just want a car to go from A to B. They could care less about how fast it does the quarter mile.

3) Higher power engines that run on methanol mean less reliability and higher warranty costs. Consumers expect cars to be reliable and not high maintenance.

I also think you need to consider that the air/fuel ratio is constantly monitored via O2 sensors and adjusted for the proper amount of fuel/oxygen. So introducing a richer fuel mix via methanol injection will be measured and adjusted for by the DME.

Those are just some of my thoughts on the matter.

I do not run methanol, but the concept has been around for many many years and is considered a cheap and effective way to add power by enhancing octane and lowering intake temps. That is probably why the Indy cars run methanol as their fuel source.

It's not for everyone, but if you are tuning for more power, it certainly adds a margin of safety in terms of suppressing engine knock when compared to regular pump gas.

If you are not concerned with adding power, then intercoolers and methanol are of no interest.

Tuning for more power only ends up being a "mis-tune" when you run beyond safe parameters in terms of ignition advance and combustion chamber temperatures.

Higher octane helps with this........you call it a band-aid approach and personally I tune pretty conservatively and don't need meth, but what alternative would you suggest to those attempting to push the envelope?

[bmw13]

Originally Posted by ErvGotti

That's why I said "traditional" CAI most rout to where the filter is at the bumper

http://www.burgertuning.com/dcintake.html

With BMS's some fresh air is still hitting the filters with the stock feed in place, granted probably not as much as the AFE's but without the bends

Again the topic here is Stock Box VS DCI's

The AFE's will have way less restriction than the stock box, but if you want to spend around double the price, go for it.

I am in no way knocking the AFE's but I'd rather put the money towards my FMIC and LSD fund.

btw while having my DCI, I did have the stock air feed, still not happy...

[BahamaBart]

Originally Posted by Ilma

I have done extensive datalogging of my stock versus aftermarket intercooler (with tune).

On a single 3rd gear only pull from 3K rpm to 6K rpm, stock intake temps rise about 25-30 degrees F.

Same pull on my VK intercooler and I see temps rise about 4-5 degrees F.

The VK might be worth looking at. But where were you measuring from "stock intake temps" ? Where was the temp probe located? Ideally, you should be measuring pre and post IC ? What were the ambient temps on those days?

This is the most data I have seen other than single statements from vendors.

[BahamaBart]

Originally Posted by ErvGotti

I still belive the car will benifit from a more efficient FMIC than stock.

This was mindset as well - until I went threw 4 IC's on a previous car (Mini Cooper S). We installed temp probes pre and post as well as a single pressure gauge which measured pre & post. What we found was that BMW makes a dam good IC. No aftermarket could beat the stock'er from a thermal efficiency AND pressure drop. Some where more thermal efficient but with greater pressure drop. Some with less pressure drop but at a cost of thermal efficiency.

Sorry if I come across cynical but I would need to see real data and comparison stock'er before I spend $ money on an IC again.

[ErvGotti]

Originally Posted by bmw13

btw while having my DCI, I did have the stock air feed, still not happy...

To each his own, Unfortunatly for me I installed the JB+ and DCI's around june and 85 degree temp. I felt a big diff, but this also can be attributed to the JB+. I might have put the stock box back on, but so far I love the pull above 5000 RPM and I think the DCI's play a role (as far as pressure drops) to help with that. Though I dont really redline it, usually shifting at 6500-6700

Originally Posted by BahamaBart

This was mindset as well - until I went threw 4 IC's on a previous car (Mini Cooper S). We installed temp probes pre and post as well as a single pressure gauge which measured pre & post. What we found was that BMW makes a dam good IC. No aftermarket could beat the stock'er from a thermal efficiency AND pressure drop. Some where more thermal efficient but with greater pressure drop. Some with less pressure drop but at a cost of thermal efficiency.

Sorry if I come across cynical but I would need to see real data and comparison stock'er before I spend $ money on an IC again.

I know how you feel, with a good amount of FMIC's out there it's tricky to pick the right one. I'll probably end up spending countless hours researching before I pick one.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by BahamaBart

The VK might be worth looking at. But where were you measuring from "stock intake temps" ? Where was the temp probe located? Ideally, you should be measuring pre and post IC ? What were the ambient temps on those days?

This is the most data I have seen other than single statements from vendors.

Intake temp data was taken from the TMAP sensor located just before the intake manifold......therefore temperature of the air just before it enters the engine which is all that really counts in the end.

Ambients were around 60-70F.

You guys really need to do some independent searching, especially over on E90post if you want data and charts. There is tons of it over there on meth and intercoolers.

In any case, the VK intercooler is good, but not the top dog. It holds it's own against brands such as Helix but you can get a few more degrees of temp drop with some of the others. For me it was the appeal of maintaining the stock intercooler coupling connectors.

I watched my shop install it in about 10 minutes once they had the belly pan off the car. So swapping it back for dealer visits is very easy and invisible.

Anyways, everyone has an opinion.

I base mine on my actual experiences and datalogs.

If you start tuning you are adding more power - but also more heat.

Take my advice.....you should be addressing the heat issue since the stock systems were not designed for it. You can get away with a stock car with tune only........if you aren't constantly heavy on the throttle and pick a lower power map, but why not make life easier for your engine and turbos by getting rid of some of the additional heat?

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by BahamaBart

This was mindset as well - until I went threw 4 IC's on a previous car (Mini Cooper S). We installed temp probes pre and post as well as a single pressure gauge which measured pre & post. What we found was that BMW makes a dam good IC. No aftermarket could beat the stock'er from a thermal efficiency AND pressure drop. Some where more thermal efficient but with greater pressure drop. Some with less pressure drop but at a cost of thermal efficiency.

Sorry if I come across cynical but I would need to see real data and comparison stock'er before I spend $ money on an IC again.

With less pressure drop from the intercooler, your turbos will have to spin less to achieve the boost target.

In my case, I am seeing about 30F drop in intake temps to the engine, and still hitting the same boost targets.

On my former GTI I installed a neuspeed intercooler and took it off after one day because the car felt crappy with it.

On the BMW platform, the car pulled much longer into the powerband with the intercooler and since some tunes let you adjust your boost targets, I can dial in whatever boost I desire and it works great.


Here are some links for you:

Of particular interest in the first link is the OP's measurements of a 37-40F drop in intake temps over stock intercooler

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243939

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...former_boosted

[BahamaBart]

Originally Posted by Ilma

With less pressure drop from the intercooler, your turbos will have to spin less to achieve the boost target.

In my case, I am seeing about 30F drop in intake temps to the engine, and still hitting the same boost targets.

On my former GTI I installed a neuspeed intercooler and took it off after one day because the car felt crappy with it.

On the BMW platform, the car pulled much longer into the powerband with the intercooler and since some tunes let you adjust your boost targets, I can dial in whatever boost I desire and it works great.


Here are some links for you:

Of particular interest in the first link is the OP's measurements of a 37-40F drop in intake temps over stock intercooler

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243939

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...former_boosted

Thanks - I'm not adverse to adding a larger IC because I am running a JB+ at 100 % (13lbs of Boost) but I need data because there's a lot of stuff that falls short. AND I'm never doing 4 IC's again, even though I learned a lot.

[BahamaBart]

Originally Posted by ErvGotti

I'll probably end up spending countless hours researching before I pick one.

Take a look at AA - there's requires the most adaptation but offers the most frontal area and should out perform the shoe boxes. That's assuming all cores are created equal which they are not. The VF also should be looked at because here's some one who has measured it. The info posted indicates that it is more thermal efficient.

[PKumarM3]

i ran a DIY dual cone intake on my 335i and also noticed the car would be a monster during the winter time, but a joke in the hot pollution car exhaust heat soaked summers of NJ.

I put the stock airbox on and the car pulls like a rocket 365 days of the year.

i bet a stock airbox and an aftermarket fmic would make for a fantastic combination. i would go with the HPF one. it looks like it was designed meticulously - it has the quick releases, polished all around, nice bead welding, it has supports to maintain a air tight lock between the fmic and the radiator, and its competitively priced ~900 from sponsors on the forum. the only downside is cutting is involved

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by PKumarM3

i ran a DIY dual cone intake on my 335i and also noticed the car would be a monster during the winter time, but a joke in the hot pollution car exhaust heat soaked summers of NJ.

I put the stock airbox on and the car pulls like a rocket 365 days of the year.

i bet a stock airbox and an aftermarket fmic would make for a fantastic combination. i would go with the HPF one. it looks like it was designed meticulously - it has the quick releases, polished all around, nice bead welding, it has supports to maintain a air tight lock between the fmic and the radiator, and its competitively priced ~900 from sponsors on the forum. the only downside is cutting is involved

Best advice so far on this thread.

Agree 100%......

The small restriction to airflow in the stock airbox would probably be offset by the better flow of an aftermarket intercooler - but your intake temps would be 30-40 degrees cooler in the end due to the superior heat transfer of the aftermarket intercooler.

The stock one is a joke - seriously.

My VK intercooler weighs at least twice as much as stock, which is indicative of it's ability to absorb more heat with all the extra mass.

I too like the looks and hardware of the HPF, but Helix seems to the most popular and numerous members swear by them.

It's a tough choice

[jojo135]

Originally Posted by Ilma

I have done extensive datalogging of my stock versus aftermarket intercooler (with tune).

On a single 3rd gear only pull from 3K rpm to 6K rpm, stock intake temps rise about 25-30 degrees F.

Same pull on my VK intercooler and I see temps rise about 4-5 degrees F.

Can't see how that isn't beneficial.

But your point about ambient temps is very true.

No intercooler is ever going to drop intake temps below ambient.....only meth can do that.

But for those not willing to run Meth, an aftermarket intercooler is the next best choice in terms of dropping intake temps.

Hey, how much did you pay for your vk and where did you buy it from if you don't mind me asking? I want a good one that requires no cutting and that I can replace with stock for dealer visits and resale

[PKumarM3]

Originally Posted by Ilma

Best advice so far on this thread.

Agree 100%......

I too like the looks and hardware of the HPF, but Helix seems to the most popular and numerous members swear by them.

It's a tough choice

Thanks! I agree with your agreement

I like the helix, but I don't like that silicone connectors. The HPF is great because everything is already ON the FMIC. No need to clamp arms on that will get loose over time. Just snap right onto the oem hook ups and your done!

i want to put something in and not fear that cheap clamps are the only thing keeping it attached to the charge pipes

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by jojo135

Hey, how much did you pay for your vk and where did you buy it from if you don't mind me asking? I want a good one that requires no cutting and that I can replace with stock for dealer visits and resale

I got mine over a year ago when Vince first produced them.

Since then I think he has changed cores.....

I think I saw a group buy a while ago for downpipes and the new intercooler, but last I heard, Vince was having business issues with his partner so I am not sure whether he is back in business or not.

Like I said previously, for me the stock coupler integration was important because I am still under warranty.

There were no modifications required at all......it was literally a plug and play unit.

Downside is that his core is smaller than the others, so heat transfer is not quite as good. But when I researched it against the Helix, I concluded there was only about a 5 degree difference between the two.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by PKumarM3

Thanks! I agree with your agreement

I like the helix, but I don't like that silicone connectors. The HPF is great because everything is already ON the FMIC. No need to clamp arms on that will get loose over time. Just snap right onto the oem hook ups and your done!

i want to put something in and not fear that cheap clamps are the only thing keeping it attached to the charge pipes

+1

I really like the design and engineering of the HPF unit too.

I love being able to mate up to the stock couplers.

[BahamaBart]

Originally Posted by Ilma

Here are some links for you:

Of particular interest in the first link is the OP's measurements of a 37-40F drop in intake temps over stock intercooler

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243939

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...former_boosted

Thanks again the threads have merit.

I like the AA design the best. The frontal exposure should make it have excellent heat transference capabilities. Clearly, do to size pressure drop should not be an issue. For my set-up the concern would be that its too big for the boost level I am running and therefore would not get the maximum thermal transference. I know there are formula's for this, I just have to go look for them.

The VK your running tested well. I have to go threw the threads again for I don't recall how much bigger it is over stock but it might be the right size for the boost I am running (if you know how much bigger it is pls share). I do notice a bit more lag going from 50% JB+ to 100% and have dismissed this to Florida summer heat but now your making me think it might be the stock'ers in ability to handle 13lbs of boost (i.e. pressure drop).

Its interesting how poorly the stock'er did when on the Mini the stock'er proved to be excellent overall (balance between pressure drop and thermal efficiency).

Anyway, I will be reading these threads again to learn more.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by BahamaBart

Thanks again the threads have merit.

I like the AA design the best. The frontal exposure should make it have excellent heat transference capabilities. Clearly, do to size pressure drop should not be an issue. For my set-up the concern would be that its too big for the boost level I am running and therefore would not get the maximum thermal transference. I know there are formula's for this, I just have to go look for them.

The VK your running tested well. I have to go threw the threads again for I don't recall how much bigger it is over stock but it might be the right size for the boost I am running (if you know how much bigger it is pls share). I do notice a bit more lag going from 50% JB+ to 100% and have dismissed this to Florida summer heat but now your making me think it might be the stock'ers in ability to handle 13lbs of boost (i.e. pressure drop).

Its interesting how poorly the stock'er did when on the Mini the stock'er proved to be excellent overall (balance between pressure drop and thermal efficiency).

Anyway, I will be reading these threads again to learn more.

IIRC the VK had 40 to 50% more surface area than stock......not huge, but you can't go too big and have a fitment with no cutting or modification, so that was the appeal to me. If you are going to the dealer they may notice any cutting you have done to the front bumper to get your intercooler to fit.

I don't think the AA unit scored the best either plus the fact that it blocks a good portion of the radiator concerns some. But our water lpumps are electric, so it may not be a factor.....but still, these engines run hot

Most of the BMW aftermarket intercoolers reduce pressure drop by 1/2 to 1 psi of boost or so.

So if your tune can't compensate, then you might end up with a bit lower boost pressure due to cooler intake temperatures since the stock boost control system alters boost pressure according to IAT.

I actually saw this in winter on my boost gauge. It would drop a couple of psi in 1st and 2nd gears, until the intake temps had time to increase by 3rd gear - then it went back to normal boost.

Remember that colder air is more dense, so you don't need as much boost to produce the same amount of power as when the air is hot. That's called intake air temperature compensation and the stock system uses this method.

[BahamaBart]

Originally Posted by Ilma

IIRC the VK had 40 to 50% more surface area than stock......not huge, but you can't go too big and have a fitment with no cutting or modification, so that was the appeal to me. If you are going to the dealer they may notice any cutting you have done to the front bumper to get your intercooler to fit.

I don't think the AA unit scored the best either plus the fact that it blocks a good portion of the radiator concerns some. But our water lpumps are electric, so it may not be a factor.....but still, these engines run hot

Most of the BMW aftermarket intercoolers reduce pressure drop by 1/2 to 1 psi of boost or so.

So if your tune can't compensate, then you might end up with a bit lower boost pressure due to cooler intake temperatures since the stock boost control system alters boost pressure according to IAT.

I actually saw this in winter on my boost gauge. It would drop a couple of psi in 1st and 2nd gears, until the intake temps had time to increase by 3rd gear - then it went back to normal boost.

Remember that colder air is more dense, so you don't need as much boost to produce the same amount of power as when the air is hot. That's called intake air temperature compensation and the stock system uses this method.

Living in Florida I would lean more towards thermal efficiency than pressure drop. As you point out colder air = denser air = more power. There is also a greater daily driver advantage when it comes to dumping heat soak.

How muck bigger is the VK core over stock? The VK might be the right size for the boost I am running and I don't plan on swapping turbos. Like you the VK is appealing from an install perspective as well. Even though I have been known to do crazy as cutting in the past.

[ErvGotti]

Originally Posted by Ilma

With less pressure drop from the intercooler, your turbos will have to spin less to achieve the boost target.

In my case, I am seeing about 30F drop in intake temps to the engine, and still hitting the same boost targets.

On my former GTI I installed a neuspeed intercooler and took it off after one day because the car felt crappy with it.

On the BMW platform, the car pulled much longer into the powerband with the intercooler and since some tunes let you adjust your boost targets, I can dial in whatever boost I desire and it works great.


Here are some links for you:

Of particular interest in the first link is the OP's measurements of a 37-40F drop in intake temps over stock intercooler

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243939

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...former_boosted

Great links I cant wait to upgrade