re: BMW memo regarding aftermarket tuning kits

[Xin1120]

Originally Posted by Zuzu

I had my update of the ECU performed and left the JB3 intact in valet mode..No probs..

TWICE actually...

You've got bigger balls than I do.

[MadMan77]

Originally Posted by Zuzu

I had my update of the ECU performed and left the JB3 intact in valet mode..No probs..

TWICE actually...

Man, you either have GIGANTIC HAIRY BALLS or you have a connection in the service department.

[Zuzu]

Originally Posted by Xin1120

You've got bigger balls than I do.

LOl...Na...just wanted to see if the JB3 stands by its claim..

[Zuzu]

Originally Posted by MadMan77

Man, you either have GIGANTIC HAIRY BALLS or you have a connection in the service department.

All of the above...Not so much in the service department, but I am "friendly" with the dealership's owner..

[M3R1]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

It seems to me that the tampering codes are being set by certain inputs being out of range for an engine making 300Hp (or more accurately a certain amount of torque for a given RPM). For example one of the tampering codes is mass air related, and that's an input that the piggybacks aren't altering. The ECU needs to know what it really is in order to control the fueling, so it's possible for that code to be set no matter what.

The question is, once it's been set and cleared by the BT tool, can the techs (or regional reps) still pull it from the ECU memory? There have been a few people who've been told they can, but I'm not sure we've seen that substantiated. I'm a programmer, and I know that if I were writing the code for something like this I'd have a non-erasable fault history, but it's hard to tell what kind of memory and hardware restrictions they're under with something like this.

It's also possilble that they can absolutely see everything that's been happening, and just aren't making in public so as not to "tip their hand". I've done that plenty of times on machines where my customers aren't telling me the whole truth about what's going on.

The bottom line is, it's totally possible from a technical point of view, but we may never know exactly what they can see.

I agree with you and believe that there is might be a non-erasable history that could be retrieved once a shadow tampering code is thrown. However, I wonder if a piggy user plays it safe and never throws a code (runs lower less agressive maps like JB3 maps 1-3), will this be detectable? I think this might be hard for BMW to identify. Again, it's all conjecture...

[HondaGoneRogue]

The manipulation codes have been discussed ad nauseum. For one, the JB tunes should be undetectable because it is a pass thru system when the car isn't running or it is in valet. (I am going from my understanding from reading buckoo's of posts.) Anyway, what these piggybacks do essentially is turn up the boost, blind the map and maf (probrably by clamping voltage) and upping fuel while adjusting timing. These processes are made simpler by the fact that the car came turboed from the factory. If these were 128i's with turbos on them then there would be more to manipulate. IIRC, these codes can be caused by a couple things. Mainly torque output, as well as manifold pressure and fuel pressure. I remember reading about finding a solution to upping the fuel pressure without triggering the codes. Again, I am certainly no expert on BMW DME's or even engine operation, but that is what I've gathered over the year of reading on here and Terry's site. His site is a plethera of knowledge and everyone tuning thier 1ers should frequent it. I go there to be technical, and come here to be cosmetic and social. Works out great. Like I said in a previous post, that letter shouldn't scare anyone that isn't scared already by the thought of tuning the car. The best advice is just to have the BT tool handy. And also remember that the service techs can't help you solve a problem very well if you aren't up front on what you have been doing with the car. That's another topic itself though. Hope I helped. Sorry if everyone knew this already.

[singular]

Originally Posted by M3R1

I agree with you and believe that there is might be a non-erasable history that could be retrieved once a shadow tampering code is thrown. However, I wonder if a piggy user plays it safe and never throws a code (runs lower less agressive maps like JB3 maps 1-3), will this be detectable? I think this might be hard for BMW to identify. Again, it's all conjecture...

I don't know anything about the specs involved, but I can imagine the signals coming into the JB3 might contain some checksum signatures that, if modified by the JB3, would give a clue to the ECU that a mod had taken place. Depending on the encryption used - it could be really hard to work around.

[HondaGoneRogue]

Also a note about the JB3 is that Terry designed it to also have failsafes (something a lot of products don't have). Boost retard is one great example. Temps get hot, boost goes down. And other functions as well. Just want to throw that in there since my above post made the tune sound really basic. It's actually very complex and well engineered. I think a lot of us take for granted the work and ingenuity of these tuners.

[kingnonis]

Eh...IMO I don't really see any new info in that bulletin or reasons for surprise. Its been common knowledge around these parts for a while now, every single sentence of what was posted is (or should be by now) common knowledge to anyone running, or considering, a tune ever since the post-29.2 "era" began....Those two manipulation codes are why we primarily buy the BT tool. Nada nuevo

[M3R1]

Originally Posted by singular

I don't know anything about the specs involved, but I can imagine the signals coming into the JB3 might contain some checksum signatures that, if modified by the JB3, would give a clue to the ECU that a mod had taken place. Depending on the encryption used - it could be really hard to work around.

If this is true i'm sure someone will find out the hard way.

[Mad Dragon]

Originally Posted by HondaGoneRogue

Anyway, what these piggybacks do essentially is turn up the boost, blind the map and maf (probrably by clamping voltage) and upping fuel while adjusting timing.

The fault that is stored is called "MAP manipulation" and it is designed to detect piggybacks that -get this- manipulate the MAP sensor signal.

N54s have no physical mass-air sensor.

[HondaGoneRogue]

Thanks. Yeah, I was reffering to tunes in general.

[HondaGoneRogue]

Originally Posted by HondaGoneRogue

IIRC, these codes can be caused by a couple things. Mainly torque output, as well as manifold pressure and fuel pressure.

Sorry if I confused anyone.

[kc_skyrider]

I have a two month old 135i. I took it in with a DCI, Mason engineering strut tower bar, Blistein PSS10 Coilovers, JB3, Cooling mist CMGS Methanol injection system with the gauges and everything. Needless to say they were a little shocked. Basically they started the trouble shooting for my headlights. The orginal problem... and within 30 min they were frantically putting my car back together and insisting I leave immediatly. I'm pretty sure I don't have a warrenty anymore but I do have a very fun car. Sorry BMW but as great a car as you can make, it's not the "ultimate driving machine" till the aftermarket cannot improve upon it

[SJ]

I suspect that the cost to BMW of maintaining their warranties on the 1s and 3s has shot up over the past 2 years because of all the HPFP related problems and service, carbon buildup, on top of all the regular screw ups you get with a BMW. They probably gotta tighten up that cost. They may have had a more laise-faire attitude and will start cracking down. Who knows? Maybe the software will be updated in the 2010 N54s to be smarter about decting tunes. Pretty small cost probably to makes those software updates compared to the cost of maintenance.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by SJ

I suspect that the cost to BMW of maintaining their warranties on the 1s and 3s has shot up over the past 2 years because of all the HPFP related problems and service, carbon buildup, on top of all the regular screw ups you get with a BMW. They probably gotta tighten up that cost. They may have had a more laise-faire attitude and will start cracking down. Who knows? Maybe the software will be updated in the 2010 N54s to be smarter about decting tunes. Pretty small cost probably to makes those software updates compared to the cost of maintenance.

I'm sure much of what you say is true.

But this brings up an interesting aspect to the tuner software/boxes etc...
These guys need to read this as well and then FIX the code problems.
Ok, maybe a regular BMW tech can't simply spot a former tune, but according to what is being said in that memo, it seems nearly all of the tuner software is leaving out tracking of the mentioned trackable parameters, namely the evap system. The memo advises tech's to look in those areas where the tuners didn't put in code for it, and it probably should.

Here:
As a result, various DME OBD II-relevant diagnostic functions are inoperative, or their functionalities are limited. Examples include diagnostic of the purge system; map-cooling thermostat; engine temperature sensor; oxygen sensors; and the functionality of the evaporation system and exhaust flaps.

This shows that some tuner software is not catching this potential.
If the tuner software is ignoring those functions, then this is where the BMW techs can look for evidence of software.
Sure, it's not direct evidence of software, but it's like matching a bullet to the gun. The cops didn't see the gun being fired, but they have evidence that a particular gun was used. They may not see a person putting poison into a drink, but during the autopsy they find residual evidence of the poisoning.

So when tuners say their software is not detectable, yeah, that may be the case that they won't find any software, but it seems they are getting smarter in being able to find residual evidence that it was there.
Tuners need to be accountable for this because they can't now say their software is not detectable, when in effect their former presence CAN now be detected. So either stop advertising that it can't be detected, or fix the code areas where the evidence can reside.

Seems in other turbo cars like the EVO or STI or whatever the manufacturers either couldn't find it or their software isn't that sophisticated. We're dealing with BMW here, a company known for a higher level of engineering and obviously a higher level of sophistication in their software and what to look for. Build a better mouse trap and then you need to build a better mouse. The trap being BMW and the mouse being the tuners.
I'd say they need to step it up.

Here's another area they/BMW can search, and tuners need to address it:
Aftermarket N54 DME software modifications usually do not change either programmed or basic DME part numbers, so it is not possible to identify this alteration via DME identification pages. In certain cases, the MSD80 DME software modifications can be detected by executing test module "S1214 NG6OBDII/Read codes" (reading of the OBD readiness codes). If the readiness code for the "Fuel Tank Ventilation" shows "XXX" (instead of "yes" or "no"), this is an indication that evaporation system function is not supported by the DME and the original BMW software was altered. (In this situation, when using the aftermarket scanning tool for checking readiness monitors, the Evaporation System status would be displayed as "Not Supported".) In such a case, the vehicle is not compliant with the federal (EPA) and

Seems clear there that the tuner software needs to give a "yes" or "no" and not just a "XXX". Yes, the software tuners write is complex, but it isn't as thorough as BMW is being, or so it seems.

[adrean8j]

Originally Posted by Mad Dragon

The fault that is stored is called "MAP manipulation" and it is designed to detect piggybacks that -get this- manipulate the MAP sensor signal.

N54s have no physical mass-air sensor.

Does not the SSTT connect directly to the "TMAP" sensor???

[sbefar01]

Confusing, can someone break this down more simply . . . . is the BT scan clearing and solving all issues or just most of them?

[S54dan]

I posted this bulletin in June of last year. To sum up, any aftermarket tunes found while working on the vehicle will void powertrain warranty. Any signs of tunes found when turning a car in will void CPO coverage (crimped wires, thrown codes, etc).

[kirby135i]

Originally Posted by Dan@UnitedBMW

I posted this bulletin in June of last year. To sum up, any aftermarket tunes found while working on the vehicle will void powertrain warranty. Any signs of tunes found when turning a car in will void CPO coverage (crimped wires, thrown codes, etc).

can only void if they prove it was the cause correct?

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by kirby135i

can only void if they prove it was the cause correct?

They'll deny claims and then you'll have to fight them to get coverage. The consumer really isn't in a good position in this situation.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

What you guys will find is that this is an attention to detail business, and many don't really understand the details.

Here are your options for avoiding detection with a piggyback system:

1) Select a piggyback and use mapping that will not trigger detection codes
2) Use any mapping you want, but get a BT cable to read/delete/clear the ECU

In addition to 1) or 2) be sure to remove any and all modifications before service or warranty claims

None of the piggyback systems avaialble require cutting or crimping of wires, or anything that would leave a trace. Also keep in mind the dealer routinely removes the cowl, etc, so scratches or marks left behind are not signs of tuning. If you search there are many cases of CPO cars being sold with tunes installed, so one wonders how much BMW really checks in to these things.

Now here are your options for avoiding detection with a flash tune:

1) Unload and remove flash software before service and use a BT cable to read/delete/clear the ECU
2) If you have a Dinan flash, they have reported your VIN to BMW already so no need to remove tune. Dinan covers your warranty.

Mike