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      09-14-2010, 07:51 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I don't think there is any chance whatsoever for the F22 to be "much lighter" than the e82. It is possible it will be a little lighter, but even that much is a stretch, IMHO. I would look for the F2x and F3x families to be heavier than the E8x and E9x families respectively, and probably by about the same percentage that the F1x is heaver than the E6x. And thus there's simply no way the F22 1M will show up with less power than the E82 1M. The car is going to ring in at a higher MSRP than the E82 1M also, since the next M3 will move up in price as well and give the 1M more room to play with. It's going to be a more expensive, heavier car with enough of a power hike and enough chassis improvement to yield better performance than its predecessor. Just like the evolution of every M vehicle before it.

None of that means that the 6 cyl 1 series is necessarily going to remain, but I personally think that it will simply because they'd lose a ton of sales otherwise. That is, unless there's going to be a turbo4-powered 1 series beneath the 1M that still makes over 300hp. And I don't think there will be.
by "much lighter" i really only meant about 100lbs. which can be a lot or a little depending on how one looks at things. i'm figuring 150lbs. of savings from lighter materials and the smaller engine partially negated by increased dimensions of the car. i think then that the power to weight ratio could stay about the same with the overall package providing a better driving experience(more dynamic) as pointed out above by another poster. i think that the scenario that you describe flies in the face of the carbon obsession and efficient dynamics trend. you may of course be right but i sure hope not.
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      09-14-2010, 08:08 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by manuelf View Post
BUT ... in case BMW AG decides to bring a turbo 6cyl in the F20, it would be a bit tougher.... adhering to a 4cyl would be almost impossible for the F22 M! An M MUST have considerably more power than its regular sibling. And this will be hardly possible, since power above 340/350 PS for a 4 cyl. would mean power per liter about 180 PS. I think this will harm driveability of this engine a lot.
What I get from reading between the lines with respect to M Division's next generation of turbo charging is that they are really going to wow us. In fact if you compare the S63 V8 to the N63 V8 on which it is based you will see already that they have employed some pretty interesting technology (look at the intake system). And that is just the tip of the iceberg, IMHO. And it accounts in part for the gain of 150hp over the series motor without giving up driveability, and that gain will soon be close to 200hp if the current rumors of 580hp to 600hp for the M5 hold true. Here's what I think we could see:

M5: 580hp 4.4L S63 V8
M3: 480hp 3.0L S55 I6
1M: 380hp 2.?L S20 I4

Flame if you must, but I'll bet you I am not way into the weeds here. It's going to be around these figures, and people are going to be surprised.
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      09-14-2010, 08:18 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hector View Post
by "much lighter" i really only meant about 100lbs. which can be a lot or a little depending on how one looks at things. i'm figuring 150lbs. of savings from lighter materials and the smaller engine partially negated by increased dimensions of the car.
Increased dimensions are a small part, but increased chassis rigidity, increased safety equippment, and increased techno-gadgetry are probably the bigger offenders when it comes to weight. People want more, and governments mandate more. Lightweight materials can help offset all of these things, but short of radical departure from how chassis are currently built and conceived (like their new city car project) you are not going to see a lighter next generation car in my opinion.

Quote:
i think then that the power to weight ratio could stay about the same with the overall package providing a better driving experience(more dynamic) as pointed out above by another poster. i think that the scenario that you describe flies in the face of the carbon obsession and efficient dynamics trend. you may of course be right but i sure hope not.
We will see. Efficient Dynamics is just marketing. The current M3 employs "Efficient Dynamics" and is hardly a benchmark of efficiency by any measure. It's really about the emissions regulations, and I think they have figured out how to meet them while simultaneously piling on the boost. I am expecting ground breaking technology here. They are going to poor the same effort they have into producing high revving naturally aspirated motors in the past into making efficient high boost turbo-charged motors. Magic will result.
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      09-14-2010, 08:20 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
1M: 380hp 2.?L S20 I4

.

if the M gets more than 2ltrs. that would be great; i'd love to see 2.2-2.4.(hopefully the 0.5ltr/cyl. displacement will be excepted for the 1M).that certainly would allow for your output estimate and get torque north of 280ft-lbs(@2.2ltr). but i'm still hoping for lighter as well.
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      09-14-2010, 08:44 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Advevo View Post
A GT3 does not cost double of what a base carrera costs. What bmw has done with the M3 GTS is just plain crazy. And it s even more crazy. The car at that price should give the direct competition a hard time but that s not the case either.

Lets hope they have learn from their mistakes and give us this time the right car. 1///M which ticks all the boxes for a drivers car.

Thank G.. it s a manual.
Colours are OK
Looks are fantastic.
Lets hope for manual sporty seats like the M3 CSL had.
Alcantara steeringwheel.
350hp is enough for me.

I have only 2 concerns about the ///M1

Thats Weight and Throttle response / Lag.

Any Throttle lag will kill the fun in cornering and the same goes for weight.


i so Agree with you man . everything you just said I AGREE
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      09-14-2010, 03:00 PM   #50
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I have only one concern about the //1M:
Before the partial unveiling: "This will be the most pure guze-pimplezz inducing M car ever. We will rock ze wurld".

During and after the partial unveiling:"Keep in mind that we had very little time and money to work with. Please bear with us for the next generation //1M. We hope that an N54is engine will still your passions for the moment, while our M-gineers work on the next generation's engine."
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      09-14-2010, 05:23 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hector View Post
if the M gets more than 2ltrs. that would be great; i'd love to see 2.2-2.4.(hopefully the 0.5ltr/cyl. displacement will be excepted for the 1M).that certainly would allow for your output estimate and get torque north of 280ft-lbs(@2.2ltr). but i'm still hoping for lighter as well.
hmm - the 4cyl turbo (S20 then ?) will be based on the upcoming N20 that will be presented with the upcoming F20.
I think BMW has something like a building block system for their upcoming engine generation (3cyl 1,5l; 4 cyl 2,0l; 6cyl 3,0l).... so I am a bit skeptical regarding 4 cyl with considerably more than 2,0l.... Keep in mind that the 1M shall stay an affordable car - that forbids too much expense for engine block adjustments....

According to mkoersel estimation:
1M: 380hp 2.?L S20 I4

Even if we have an 2,2l displacement that would mean 172 PS/l - that is still a lot... when you compare it to the also high expection of him regarding the M3 engine: 480hp 3.0L S55 I6 => 160.... all rumour I heared till now was 450PS for the S55 => 150 PS/l
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      09-14-2010, 06:03 PM   #52
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Quote:
We will see. Efficient Dynamics is just marketing.
Ooer.... Never let anyone at BMW AG hear you say that Because not only will you get the lecture of "Why It's not?" Your ability to smooze in the BMW bosom might be at risk.

In all honesty Efficient Dynamics is not marketing because it is actually a concept that works. I can understand if you are not familiar with European models but Efficient dynamics technology has brought BMW signifcant reductions in reducing fuel and C02 levels across it's range of models.
Each BMW model from the 1er right up to the 7er is more efficient than it's rivals.

BMW are not the highest ranking sustainable automobile company for nothing.

Where other manufacturers are going for reductions of 5-10% in fuel consumption, BMW are aiming for about 20% in reductions , BMW likes to push the envelope as far as it can.
The same goes for the M division which they are looking for greater fuel economy and lower emissions helped by a new lightweight philosophy without sacrificing performance and dynamics.
The M5 begins that new era. And it will rock the segment.
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      09-14-2010, 06:30 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
The same goes for the M division which they are looking for greater fuel economy and lower emissions helped by a new lightweight philosophy without sacrificing performance and dynamics.
The M5 begins that new era. And it will rock the segment.
This is good to hear... saddened it's not part of the program on the e82 1M, but I digress. I guess my kids will have great BMW's.
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      09-14-2010, 08:55 PM   #54
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I think BMW is trying to test the water by only producing 3000ish 1M to see what will happen if they cut the V8 M engines on future M cars.
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      09-15-2010, 04:54 AM   #55
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Efficient dynamics on the M5.

I get it v8 and turbo is less Co2

But

It would be awesome to see if the M5 was 200kg lighter. But i quess that s not the efficient dynamics what they have in mind.

Car is bigger and heavier again is my quess.
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      09-15-2010, 05:35 AM   #56
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Ok, well consider me a skeptical consumer who nevertheless has faith in BMW's ability to build better, cleaner, faster, more efficient cars.

I guess what I mean is, the phrase "Efficient Dynamics" is merely a marketers (or rather marketing team's or PR firm's) branding of a set of philosophies and technologies that BMW has developed or is developing. As such, there is implied a range of efficiency and a range of dynamicity (is that a word? ). So, just because something gets that brand doesn't mean it's automatically better (by whatever measure we choose) than something else that doesn't, or as good as something else that does. Like I said, the M3, even with Efficient Dynamics label sprinkled about its PR material is not a fuel efficient car. Sure its a very dynamic car, and maybe its so dynamic that the fuel efficiency doesn't matter (thats kind of how I feel ), but really putting that label on that car does favors for neither that label nor that car.

(How was that reply? Sufficiently policitcally correct and wordy? )

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Ooer.... Never let anyone at BMW AG hear you say that Because not only will you get the lecture of "Why It's not?" Your ability to smooze in the BMW bosom might be at risk.

In all honesty Efficient Dynamics is not marketing because it is actually a concept that works. I can understand if you are not familiar with European models but Efficient dynamics technology has brought BMW signifcant reductions in reducing fuel and C02 levels across it's range of models.
Each BMW model from the 1er right up to the 7er is more efficient than it's rivals.

BMW are not the highest ranking sustainable automobile company for nothing.

Where other manufacturers are going for reductions of 5-10% in fuel consumption, BMW are aiming for about 20% in reductions , BMW likes to push the envelope as far as it can.
The same goes for the M division which they are looking for greater fuel economy and lower emissions helped by a new lightweight philosophy without sacrificing performance and dynamics.
The M5 begins that new era. And it will rock the segment.
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      09-15-2010, 08:13 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
...dynamicity (is that a word? )...
well, i guess it is now; per Merriam-Webster; neologism: a meaningless word coined by a psychotic.

sorry, couldn't resist.
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      09-15-2010, 09:09 AM   #58
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Unfortunately, I can't take credit for the phrase - google turns up many hits. But I won't let that stop me from being psychotic though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hector View Post
well, i guess it is now; per Merriam-Webster; neologism: a meaningless word coined by a psychotic.

sorry, couldn't resist.
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      09-15-2010, 09:14 AM   #59
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.... But I won't let that stop me from being psychotic though.
as i always say: i'm not paranoid, they really are out to get me!:
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      09-15-2010, 01:58 PM   #60
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Unfortunately, I agree with this comment.

It's not terribly difficult for the end consumer to buy a 2 year old car and yank the heavy front seats, pull out the a/c system, sound deadening material, rear seats, etc, to make a lightweight car.

Lotus has offered us a car like this in the Elise/Exige. Sold OK, but not such a success that I see them around much... and Lotus USA is headquartered just a few miles from my home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Such a car is no longer attainable...Call it progress.
What can be done is attempt replicate the driving style which is what the 1M sets out to do.

Even if such a car exists the US Market would not want a stripped out back to basics car nor would they sacrifice luxuries and comfort.
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      09-15-2010, 02:39 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
As of now it is limited but it will be watched closely especially in relation to demand , right now the greatest amount of interest is Germany , followed by the USA and China.
I would venture to say that the person who orders 1M #2701 probably will not be turned away. It sounds like a fairly realistic sales target, which is being marketed as "limited production for now". Of course, we could debate the wisdom of marketing that way.

I'm definitely still interested... my 135i will turn 4 in the spring of 2012, which is the earliest I'd consider buying a 1M. I'll be watching closely to see how it shakes out.
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      09-15-2010, 04:02 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by JBurer View Post
Unfortunately, I agree with this comment.

It's not terribly difficult for the end consumer to buy a 2 year old car and yank the heavy front seats, pull out the a/c system, sound deadening material, rear seats, etc, to make a lightweight car.

Lotus has offered us a car like this in the Elise/Exige. Sold OK, but not such a success that I see them around much... and Lotus USA is headquartered just a few miles from my home.
To be honest, it's not the sparseness of this car (which I actually like), it's the unbelievable smallness of it, coupled with a rather absurd price, considering how bare bones the car is, that turns folks away from it.

I'd love to see someone over 6'0 try to get in one.
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      09-15-2010, 04:29 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
To be honest, it's not the sparseness of this car (which I actually like), it's the unbelievable smallness of it, coupled with a rather absurd price, considering how bare bones the car is, that turns folks away from it.

I'd love to see someone over 6'0 try to get in one.
I'm 6'2" and actually fit quite comfortably in my buddy's Exige and don't notice that the Elise is any worse. Sure, it's hell on ingress/egress, but once I'm in, it's actually just as comfortable as my M Coupe. I don't mind the value proposition, but the dodgy crash safety has prevented me from considering one.

I personally don't care for the mid engined driving dynamic and really hope that Mazda gets the next Miata/RX7 correct, meaning very light weight, not too much power assist on steering, brakes, etc and at least something near to what the FD RX7 offered in terms of power to weight. I'd be happy with something under 2,400 pounds and something near 200 hp.
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      09-15-2010, 11:05 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Such a car is no longer attainable...Call it progress.
What can be done is attempt replicate the driving style which is what the 1M sets out to do.

Even if such a car exists the US Market would not want a stripped out back to basics car nor would they sacrifice luxuries and comfort.
I don't know whether that's true or not, but I will say that there have been a number of cars that the "experts" said could not succeed in the US market that seemed to do just fine once a single decent car of its variety was offered for sale. Typically that single car is followed by multiple cars from other manufacturers. For example, it was thought that the US market had no interest in a small 2-seat convertible of the old British style until the Mazda folks took a chance. That was followed by the Honda S2000 and a hastily put together car from an unmentioned German manufacturer that mated engines from current cars with a chassis from one that wasn't so current ***cough*** Z3. Another example was the thinking that the US had no interst in small AWD turbo sedans, Then Subaru decided to finally import their WRX and they couldn't keep them in the showrooms. Soon, we had the STI version, Mitsubishi was importing EVO's, and Dodge was selling SRT-4's (though admittedly without the AWD). None of these cars were supposed to sell in the US. What generation of the Z3/4 is BMW on again?
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      10-07-2010, 08:11 AM   #65
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I'd expect they limited availability of 1M mainly to protect 335iS coupe. I think it'll be tough to sell one with a 1M availlable.

I HOPE it's also because they "took some chances" with high boost and other compromises and they're limiting the scale of any problems.
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      10-07-2010, 09:25 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt_OH View Post
I'd expect they limited availability of 1M mainly to protect 335iS coupe. I think it'll be tough to sell one with a 1M availlable.

I HOPE it's also because they "took some chances" with high boost and other compromises and they're limiting the scale of any problems.
Also keep in mind that the 335iS is only available in the US market.
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