E46 ZHP to 135i questions

[ziazhp]

Longtime BMW owner here, but have never owned a turbo BMW. I'm very interested in a 135i or 135is (if I can find one) but wanted to reach out to see if anyone here had gone from an E46 ZHP to a 1 series and what your thoughts were. Pros/Cons. I'm looking for a "pure" stripped down BMW experience that I think is becoming more and more difficult to have as we get into electric everything and cars just feeling synthetic. I love my ZHP but like always want something a bit more nimble and quicker and am thinking a 1 series fits the bill.
Thanks

[Playnice]

Hey Ziazhp, I came from an E46 as well. A 330ci, but not ZHP.

Pros of switching:
Forced Induction and Turbos!
Much quicker in a straight line
Tune-ability
More modern look
More "bite" on initial turn in (more about this later)
Easier to drift and burnout if you're into that
Better sound system
Prices of the 135i have "bottomed-out", less depreciation ahead
Lovely interior that ages well
Still has no electric steering

Cons:
Will feel less balanced around longer, sweeper corners
Understeer, especially mid corner when the weight has transferred
Problems with turbos or HPFP, etc.
Higher maintenance overall (potentially)
Weird wheel specifications
Some say it looks like a chicks car

That's all I can think of now. In regards to the cornering, you will find that the 135i will overall perform worse than the ZHP. The initial turn in and "bite" you get in the 135i is better than the ZHP, but longer corners or sweepers are not good for this car. The 135i can be extremely potent if the wheels/suspension are set up correctly to counter this, however.

Cheers and good luck on finding your new car! Overall, I would say that it is an excellent upgrade. It is still a very modern looking car (even the 2008's) and IMO have aged better than the 3 series in the same years. You will be much faster in this car, even though the ZHP is still plenty fast.

[Steven135i]

i came from a ZHP black e46 i got myself a 135i manuel black i love it so much alot faster then the zhp but it still fast compared to the standard e46

[tock172]

I've owned two E46 330i ZSP (sport as opposed to performance) sedans and two E82 135i M-Sport coupes, one 6MT and the other DCT.

To this day, I still miss my second 330i, a 2004 in Silver Grey Metallic that I had completely dialed in. The handling was incredible, and it made an excellent daily driver. It didn't matter if you were commuting or sitting at the governor flying across the desert, that car never missed a beat and never felt out of its league. I had it loaded to the gills on multiple occasions and it still achieved 29 MPG on the freeway.

Neither of my 1-series comes close in terms of handling, but the power of the N55 is intoxicating, and I love the DCT. Additionally, I like having a more modern, lower mileage BMW. My 2004 330i had just under 150k when I wrecked it and although I kept it immaculate, my 135i is another level. A couple other points: the E46 interior seems to be constructed of high quality, harder wearing materials. The E82 feels cheap and plasticky in certain areas. Utility wise, the E46 also wins as I believe it has a larger cargo capacity. When it comes to passengers, an E46 coupe can seat 5, while a 1-series coupe seats 4.

At the end of the day I don't think you'll regret upgrading to a 135i, but you may find yourself pining for that old school BMW feel which is why I also have an E30. It's still there in the 1-series as they have hydraulic steering, but I felt my 330i was just a bit more connected.

[ziazhp]

Thank you for all the replies, really appreciate it. I have an E30 325ix and an E24 M6 which keep me feeling the older, more analog BMW. A bit disappointing to hear about the interior materials because I think the E46 plastic is pretty crappy, peels easily. Is this the case with the 1series (easy scratching and peeling)?

[fast1eddy]

My previous car was a E36 M3 and my wife drove an E46 330i. Each generation is an improvement over the last. My initial intention was to replace the E36 M3 with an E46 M3. After driving a few examples I felt they didn't move the ball far enough ahead. A lot of the small annoying problems I had with the E36 seemed to still be present in the E46 especially interior build quality. After driving my cousins 128i convertible with automatic I knew I'd found the right car. At first I wanted a 128i sport package 6spd but they were really hard to find. I drove a couple and they were exactly what I was looking for. Then I made the mistake of driving a 135i. It had all the same things I liked about the 128 but dialled up two more notches. I knew I'd face a lot more maintenance with the 135 but since I DIY I wasn't too concerned. The car is really a great little package. The handling stock leaves a lot to be desired but is not difficult to remedy. I now have Mperformance suspension, Whiteline rear subframe bushes, Dinan rear shock mounts and an E92 M3 sway bar. The handling is almost to where I want it. The only thing left is to do the M3 suspension bits. The bushing on this car are way too soft especially as the car ages. Address these few short coming and it will make for a great replacement for your E46. You won't regret it.

[swagon]

Originally Posted by ziazhp

Thank you for all the replies, really appreciate it. I have an E30 325ix and an E24 M6 which keep me feeling the older, more analog BMW. A bit disappointing to hear about the interior materials because I think the E46 plastic is pretty crappy, peels easily. Is this the case with the 1series (easy scratching and peeling)?

To a certain extent, yes. Early models (including E9x) had problems with peeling on the door window switches and steering wheel trims. Later on they changed the parts / materials. Earlier this year, I changed the M Sport steering wheel trim on the E91 and the new part had a different finish.

It's been a decade since I've been in an E46 (M Sport with grey leather), but I remember it being quite nice inside, better than the 1er for sure. Not only it's got cheap plastics, it creaks and rattles all the time. YMMV, though.

[bm996tt]

My car has 35k and the interior is like new, I realize that's not many miles but have seen much worse in Porsche-BMW with less= how the car is used and maintained means a lot. I do not eat or drink in my cars and never use them to pick up large boxes etc that can mar interior. I use my truck or SUV etc for that= and yes I do eat/drink in them lol. I love the e46 but they are known for interior defects, I keep looking for a nice local M3 but most are trashed or have support damage.

[The Wind Breezes]

The car might not be a lot nimbler but it will be quicker, possibly a lot quicker if you do some very simple mods. That's not to say the handling is any worse than your ZHP, just that the car is heavy even though it's small.

[tock172]

Originally Posted by ziazhp

Thank you for all the replies, really appreciate it. I have an E30 325ix and an E24 M6 which keep me feeling the older, more analog BMW. A bit disappointing to hear about the interior materials because I think the E46 plastic is pretty crappy, peels easily. Is this the case with the 1series (easy scratching and peeling)?

First off, I'd like to recognize that you've got an awesome garage and great taste. What colors are the E30 and E24, and what year is the E24? I'm a big fan of the first generation 6 series and it's one of the few period BMWs I've yet to own. My goal is an early E12-based E24 with a smaller displacement M30 running triple Webers. Someday

Digression aside, both of my E46s suffered from the easily scratched center console. Most of the damage was already there thanks to the previous owner of my second one and I didn't add much. The issue is the soft-touch coating. 997.1 generation 911s suffer from the same thing, as did Audis from the early to mid 2000s.

The 1-series has improved on this, only by way of replacing the coating with harder, cheaper feeling plastics. Squeaks and rattles are also common, but my E46s had plenty of those too. My biggest complain is the plastic. There's more of it, and it's only getting more and more brittle over time.

Originally Posted by fast1eddy

My previous car was a E36 M3 and my wife drove an E46 330i. Each generation is an improvement over the last. My initial intention was to replace the E36 M3 with an E46 M3. After driving a few examples I felt they didn't move the ball far enough ahead. A lot of the small annoying problems I had with the E36 seemed to still be present in the E46 especially interior build quality. After driving my cousins 128i convertible with automatic I knew I'd found the right car. At first I wanted a 128i sport package 6spd but they were really hard to find. I drove a couple and they were exactly what I was looking for. Then I made the mistake of driving a 135i. It had all the same things I liked about the 128 but dialled up two more notches. I knew I'd face a lot more maintenance with the 135 but since I DIY I wasn't too concerned. The car is really a great little package. The handling stock leaves a lot to be desired but is not difficult to remedy. I now have Mperformance suspension, Whiteline rear subframe bushes, Dinan rear shock mounts and an E92 M3 sway bar. The handling is almost to where I want it. The only thing left is to do the M3 suspension bits. The bushing on this car are way too soft especially as the car ages. Address these few short coming and it will make for a great replacement for your E46. You won't regret it.

I had a Techno Violet on Mulberry 1999 E36 M3 and I loved it. Easily one of the best driving cars BMW ever made. They nailed it with that chassis. I still love the look and feel of the E46 M3, but the S54 was the real improvement in my mind.

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by ziazhp

Thank you for all the replies, really appreciate it. I have an E30 325ix and an E24 M6 which keep me feeling the older, more analog BMW. A bit disappointing to hear about the interior materials because I think the E46 plastic is pretty crappy, peels easily. Is this the case with the 1series (easy scratching and peeling)?

I think the interior of the 1 series is fine. Materials and layout are basic and simple. Everything you need and nothing you don't. I am the only owner of my car and picked it up in Oct 2010 and it still feels like new. 33K miles on my car with no squeaks or rattles to speak of. As someone mentioned above, I think it depends on how the car has been used and maintained. I think that means a lot. Just be smart and thorough and choose wisely.

[tock172]

Originally Posted by Esteban

I think the interior of the 1 series is fine. Materials and layout are basic and simple. Everything you need and nothing you don't. I am the only owner of my car and picked it up in Oct 2010 and it still feels like new. 33K miles on my car with no squeaks or rattles to speak of. As someone mentioned above, I think it depends on how the car has been used and maintained. I think that means a lot. Just be smart and thorough and choose wisely.

But how many other BMWs have you owned? Not meant to be a dig or jab by any means, but it's interesting and important to see how the quality and designs have changed over the years. There is no question that for a while, costs were eating in to quality. I think the high point for build quality, durability, longevity and material choice is something like the E34. The cabin isn't flashy, but it is constructed of hard wearing materials (like a vintage Mercedes) that can stand up to decades of use without failing, needing replacement or becoming an eyesore. Door panel delimitation, worn upholstery and seat twisting are the worst issues I've seen on the E34, and the 1-series still suffers from the first two.

I think history will show us that the E36 and E90 (that means the 1-series as well) represent low points as far as BMW interiors are concerned. The newer F-chassis BMWs seem to use better materials with an improved tactile feel over the plastics in the 1-series and E90, but we've yet to see how they really age and of course, a lot of that depends on how the owner cares for it. There is something about the E46/E39 generation BMW interiors that just feels solid, even though you still have issues with A & C pillar fabric separation, broken cupholders, etc.

Of several BMWs, I've owned, if I had to rank them by their interior material construction, it would be as follows:

1. E46
2. E30
3. E28
4. E82
5. E36

My Audi B6 S4 would easily top the list, but I hated that car with a passion. The interior, as is the case with most VAG vehicles, was excellent and had none of the usual soft-touch button coating peeling, sans the driver's side window switches.

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by tock172

But how many other BMWs have you owned? Not meant to be a dig or jab by any means, but it's interesting and important to see how the quality and designs have changed over the years. There is no question that for a while, costs were eating in to quality. I think the high point for build quality, durability, longevity and material choice is something like the E34. The cabin isn't flashy, but it is constructed of hard wearing materials (like a vintage Mercedes) that can stand up to decades of use without failing, needing replacement or becoming an eyesore. Door panel delimitation, worn upholstery and seat twisting are the worst issues I've seen on the E34, and the 1-series still suffers from the first two.

I think history will show us that the E36 and E90 (that means the 1-series as well) represent low points as far as BMW interiors are concerned. The newer F-chassis BMWs seem to use better materials with an improved tactile feel over the plastics in the 1-series and E90, but we've yet to see how they really age and of course, a lot of that depends on how the owner cares for it. There is something about the E46/E39 generation BMW interiors that just feels solid, even though you still have issues with A & C pillar fabric separation, broken cupholders, etc.

Of several BMWs, I've owned, if I had to rank them by their interior material construction, it would be as follows:

1. E46
2. E30
3. E28
4. E82
5. E36

My Audi B6 S4 would easily top the list, but I hated that car with a passion. The interior, as is the case with most VAG vehicles, was excellent and had none of the usual soft-touch button coating peeling, sans the driver's side window switches.

In all honesty I have NOT owned another BMW (other than my first 1er, which was a first year model and admittedly made some noises) so I really can't compare it to other BMWs, other than what I've seen or read about. Was not trying to compare it, but was merely commenting on the quality of the one I own. As I said, I think the 1 series is very basic and simple. The materials are not luxurious, like some other models of the brand, but mine have stood up for several years and are not deteriorating or making any noises. I don't think of the 1 series as a luxury car at all, but just a decently made sporty coupe that is fun to drive.

[bm996tt]

I have owned many BMWs still have some. The interiors in my cars rarely suffer the usual problems as I do not leave them in the sun- they are stored inside and am easy on them. Agree the 1 series is not a luxury car, just a very nice entry level sports car that is a blast to drive. The fact is that German interiors as a whole do not hold up overly well compared to others= mainly Japanese. I really do not care personally as I will repair anything that doesn't suit me. More concerned with serious problems like the e46 structural issues. I wouldn't own a car if I felt that it was cheaply made-rattles-squeaks etc = I would buy something else.

[Gangplank]

The 1 series is a great entry level German sports coupe. In stock form the handling is a bit floaty but a few simple upgrades tightens things up and it is then a quick nimble and fun to drive car.

2011+ got different springs

The Rear Subframe Bushings (RSFB) are soft. You can get the M3 version as a direct swap or the whiteline 2 piece Bushings or Whiteline 2 pice insets which settles the rear end handling on long sweepers and corner exit. First mod anyone with a 1 should do! Not expensive if you go w/ the 2 piece or inserts.

Differential lockdown bracket helps to further lock down the rear end and keep things planted.

M3 front control arms + an alignment. Settles the front end nicely and improves handling.

Those simple mods worked great for me. At some point w/ enough mileage I'll need new shocks/struts but for now now it's a fantastic daily driver with just a few mods.

Oh and the PPK (BMW performance power kit) puts the "is" as in 135is. Or there are other more aggressive tunes out there as well from MHD/Cobb or JB4 if you want more...

Early n54 had more reliability issues than n55 (2011+) but at this point those issues have mostly been worked out.

If you are looking for a fun to drive, good little sports coupe, it's a great car.

[malicem3]

I've owned the following cars prior to my 135i M Sport 6 speed.

E46 328Ci
E36 M3
E46 ZHP
E90 335i

The E82 feels much more maneuverable than the E90. It doesn't feel as connected as the ZHP. I will say, of that bunch, the ZHP handled the best. However, outside of the 335i, the engine and braking more than make up for it. It's just a matter of trade-offs but, like someone else said, the E82 is the closest to the ZHP of the newer BMW's.

I seriously considered E9X M3's, E46 M3's, etc. If I was tracking, I would have went with one of those. Since this won't even be an Auto-X car, I went with the 135i because it's fun.

[doublevanosrc]

I had a 2004 ZHP sedan even though in my opinion it has the best steering and riding/handling combination ever, I still prefer the 135i. First and foremost is the power then the handling and the braking. All these are superior with an exception to the handling, you can add micheln SS tires to make it closer. The car is much faster and a bit heavier as others stated but overall better. I personally think the car is built to a higher level along with the interior. Everything from the HVAC system to the seats are much much better. It's also quieter and in my opinion more reliable than any of my E46s.(others might disagree).

[bagekko]

Its been almost a year since I traded my Z3 2.8 MSport for the 135 MSport cabrio, recently put on PSS tires and while happy with the car its still not close to my Z3 on cornering. I've thought how best to describe it and your 2 points below are spot on. While I can turn it into the corner like the Z3 it then suffers from those symptoms.

I didnt think I would mod the 135 like I have other cars, my Z3 was a mostly stock garage queen. But lately I have been thinking about upgrading the bushings to try and get closer to my old Z3 feel in the corners.

Originally Posted by Playnice

Cons:
Will feel less balanced around longer, sweeper corners
Understeer, especially mid corner when the weight has transferred

[nachob]

Originally Posted by ziazhp

Longtime BMW owner here, but have never owned a turbo BMW. I'm very interested in a 135i or 135is (if I can find one) but wanted to reach out to see if anyone here had gone from an E46 ZHP to a 1 series and what your thoughts were. Pros/Cons. I'm looking for a "pure" stripped down BMW experience that I think is becoming more and more difficult to have as we get into electric everything and cars just feeling synthetic. I love my ZHP but like always want something a bit more nimble and quicker and am thinking a 1 series fits the bill.
Thanks

I have. 2003 ZHP manual and a 1M coupe. I switch regularly. The 135i and N54 stuff is unreliable. I would personally find an M sport no option 128i or at least a N55 135i. I have spent a lot of money fixing my Zhp. Everything from new headlights, Alcántara wheel to entire suspension. The turbo cars are nice on boost but they don't have the amazing throttle response of the zhp when it's in the band. I also find the zhp to have better steering feedback than even 1M which has a better rack than 135i and 128i. I find the zhp easy to drive fast and forgiving. I love my zhp despite costing a lot to upkeep and I don't feel I am missing anything when I jump from 1M to ZHP. I would not sell your Zhp. It is the best of breed. It is the best non M 3 series ever made. I also love the 1M but they are different cars. The zhp represents the pinnacle of BMWs ultimate driving machine. It is fun to drive Day and night in any weather carrying family or alone.

So date another car, get something else but if you have a good condition zhp manual transmission don't sell it right away. Live with the other car first. I am lucky I can own both but if my situation changes and I could only keep one the zhp would be it. It gets great mileage, drives great, looks beautiful and is the perfect all around sedan. I hope that helps a bit.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by doublevanosrc

I had a 2004 ZHP sedan even though in my opinion it has the best steering and riding/handling combination ever, I still prefer the 135i. First and foremost is the power then the handling and the braking. All these are superior with an exception to the handling, you can add micheln SS tires to make it closer. The car is much faster and a bit heavier as others stated but overall better. I personally think the car is built to a higher level along with the interior. Everything from the HVAC system to the seats are much much better. It's also quieter and in my opinion more reliable than any of my E46s.(others might disagree).

Totally agree, the ZHP is well rounded machine and the power and braking makes up for a lot on the 1 series so I have both and jump in each one depending on how I feel. They are both super cars so how deciding which one is better depends on what attributes mean more to you. For example acceleration and braking are great but there SUVs that accelerate fast and stop fast. So while we all love that aspect, the ZHP rewards with something that you cannot get anymore. The steering feedback is superb. The brake modulation is superb, the throttle response after 2500 rpm is lovely. Those are things that are now lost in modern BMWs. I have 128K miles on my ZHP and 20k on my 1M. The 1M does everything faster than the ZHP which makes it exciting but the ZHP is eager to go. It's like a happy golden retriever just begging to fetch the ball.....just point and it goes in that direction without complaining. The 1 series turbo cars, especially the N54 go faster but they take some prodding. They go faster but they feel like you are annoying them and waking them from slumber whereas the ZHP is eager.

The normally aspirated sound, the great BMW steering feedback, instant throttle response and lovely understated lines have gone away from BMWs playbook so that makes them more special which is why I apply more weight to those attributes that are harder to find and the ZHP edges the 1 series for me.

So as I said before, I really love both and they are both landmark cars for BMW so all I am saying is if you have a nice MT ZHP, I recommend you buy your new car first and see for yourself because you would be giving up one of the truly special BMWs ever made.

[sprp85]

Well I know its off topic but...

I have a 2011 128i with 6MT, sport pkg, slicktop, yadayada, as bare as it gets with only essential options.

Its always fun to drive, loves to get revved, typical I6 engine from BMW.

But I have always wondered how a ZHP drives. And of course, I have a soft spot for E46 sedans!

ZHP is basically raved by everyone, except for maybe M3 owners Lol!

If anyone could chime in with comparison between 128i and ZHP, it would be awesome!!

[tock172]

Originally Posted by sprp85

ZHP is basically raved by everyone, except for maybe M3 owners Lol!

That's because they find it difficult to admit that a car with roughly 100 less HP and much more pedestrian engine ends up being a better use of the platform and all around improved package when it comes to real world usability.

That said, I actually knew of a few guys that had both an E46 M3 coupe and an a ZHP sedan. One guy had them both in Imola red.