Nasty experiences with the twin-turbo...

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by Garrett

Secondly, a lead engineer from BMW has said the N54 runs hotter than most engines, he stressed this was somehow related to BMWefficiencydynamics.

I have asked you four times to post the link and you still havent done it. Not anywhere I have read has anything remotely close to this been seen. Until you post the link, your claim that the engine is designed to run at 280 degrees will be just that, an unproven claim.

[Brownergy]

Originally Posted by Garrett

Thirdly, I have not heard of a 335i/535i WITH an oil cooler overheating. Have you..?

First off, I could care less. Second, it doesn't matter. The better question is, how many 335i's with oil coolers have over heated during a 30min. lapping session? See the difference? If I buy the 135i, it will see as much track time as I can afford. A regularly overheating engine is unacceptable, especially by the "Ultimate Driver" BMW. It's bad enough I gotta keep an eye on the rear brake wear because of Elec. LSD when I'm trying to ACCELERATE!!! Many members boast about the huge brakes and how it's track ready, but as I dig deeper into BMW's car, they are no where as efficient as my S2000, more like a Lexus as far as performance and track behavior.

[exokikwear]

Originally Posted by Brownergy

but as I dig deeper into BMW's car, they are no where as efficient as my S2000, more like a Lexus as far as performance and track behavior.

you'll have a hard time making a 135 feel like an S2000 on the track. i've been thinking about them recently.

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by zba857

If you search you will find plenty...
That is no cause for confidence... That should tell you that it is a quality control issue. Some people get great cars and some don't. However these flukes are only manual cars. The steptronic cars are not nearly as track friendly(even some w/oil cooler). For clarity i will state that i am talking about tracked cars; i'm not talking about drivin Ms. Daisy here
Once again if you search you will find that not everyone gets an oil cooler when they ask for it.
Where did you get this information? IMO you are making too many assumptions about this issue. I suggest you read up on it.
Who said it was our problem? We are just having intelligent convo. :iono:

Blah... line item veto..?

Ok, first.. some cars are not netter than others. The ones that overheat are usually driven hard, or are in places like Nevada. Yes, there is the occasional Main car that overheats....

...but this is all without an oil cooler. I am active on many BMW boards, I have not run across a thread thats mentions the n54 going into limp mode beacuse of getting too hot AND having an Oil Cooler.

If that was the case it's an anomoli. Track car or not!

It also quite remarkable that people are tracign this car and not installing proper cooling themselves. FMIC, richer burn...etc.


Secondly, BMW released a notice, that if your DME logs a limp mode due to overheating, that car is to receive an Oil Cooler. Many, many people hav gotten and Oil Cooler just by demanding/asking the dealer.

Your beating a dead horse here.... BMW puts this engine in the 5 series aswell. Has known about the "limp mode" due to no Oil Cooler. Mostly track junkies.

Sounds like you just trying to stir stuff up. Yes, if its a problem, then a trip to the dealer will resolve your issue. Dumb as it is.. wish BMW just would've put an Oil Cooler on all their n54's.

[ttdmac]

Setrab oil coolers and fan pack would be a great 135i upgrade. As long as the car is plumbed for it I'll more than likely replace any stock oil coolers.

If the oil temp is more than 2 oil coolers can handle, then in-line heat exchangers should do the trick.

[Imprezin]

ADD NITROUS :headbang::thumbup: lolololol cool that engine right down... :wink: haha

[Ryephile]

This sounds exactly like what some people are saying about the new turbo Cooper S. That new engine runs warmer than most people are used to; and that's to reduce emissions [as someone said; efficient/dynamics]. There are people on the R56 Cooper S forum that are practically screaming bloody murder regarding the engine temps; but in reality the engine runs about 230F and DOESN'T overheat, even on the racetrack.

Are there any actual cases of the N54 melting down, or is this more screaming bloody murder with no evidence?

[bradford]

Originally Posted by Garrett

Listen,

All turbocharged engines run hot without the use of an oil cooler. How many turbo charged engines don't have an oil cooler..?

Audi 1.8t.

[Robert]

And then there is the issue of FAILING FUEL PUMP. e90post has someone who went through 3 fuel pump replacement before finally lemoning the car.

[ttdmac]

I find it funny how many people rag on BMW for being negligent in their design and leaving out oil coolers on N54 equipped cars.

Overheating on cars that are being tracked happens on a regular basis, which is why many track enthusiasts will rest their cars between sessions.

You can't expect to take a road car and track it consistently without experiencing some issues during the life of the car.

I've had cars that I tracked that overheated and these were cars with high capacity oil coolers. It required a flush of the cooling system, upgrade of the radiator, sonic cleaning of the oil coolers and various other changes to get the car to perform on the track within the desired parameters, which was 95C.

My point is that too many potential owners are complaining without experiencing the car or knowledge of what issues such as overheating are caused by.

[ttdmac]

Originally Posted by robert

And then there is the issue of FAILING FUEL PUMP. e90post has someone who went through 3 fuel pump replacement before finally lemoning the car.

Right because that is related to overheating of the N54. Granted there had been issues with the fuel pump, however it is widely known that BMW is now sourcing those fuel pumps from a different OEM now and have fixed that issue.

[Dunbar]

I thought BMW was including an oil cooler on manual transmission, sport package equipped cars. Is that not the case with the 135i? The Germans are usually pretty conservative when it comes to this sort of thing. I guess they figured only 6-sp/SP drivers will drive the car hard enough to overheat it. If simply driving the car briskly down a twisty road is enough to overheat it, it doesn't give me a lot of confidence in driving from LA to Las Vegas in the 115 degree heat (through the mountains and all).

[Crowley]

I'll have to do more research on my current cars engne .. I know it has direct injection as well but only a single turbo .. I'll have to see what my dashhawk can read .. are we talking Engine (coolant) temps here?

[Ryephile]

Here's food for thought: The R56 Cooper S has an all aluminum engine with a Borg Warner K03 [bigger than the Mitsubishi 10g's on the N54] running 16psig with a 10.5:1 static compression ratio. Straight off the showroom floor it puts 202wLb-Ft to Dynajet rollers SAE corrected. This is on a 1.6L engine that BMW designed. I see NO reason why upping the displacement to 3.0L, lowering the static CR a whiff, running two smaller turbos at almost half the boost would merit any sort of overheating issues. The MINI's engine runs a pathetically microscopic oil cooler that is behind the engine and out of any sort of airflow; the fact that the 135i has an oil cooler in the front bumper is surely going to freeze the oil in comparison!

[investor27]

Didn't they say the 135i was tested heavily in all climate and altitude all over the world?

[S62PWR]

Originally Posted by zba857

Very true! Many people try to brush this off as a fix all end all. Or say that it is fine w/ synthetic. Some say its because of cylinders 2 and 6 (or whatever). Regardless of what it is, the fact of the matter is that they have had ample time to rectify the problem and they haven't yet. This is their first turbocharged motor in a long time... I figured it would take them a few tries to iron it out, but there are not that many issues that can cause a motor to overheat.

Now it seems to be more prevalent with auto cars and the oil cooler(normally std on turbo platforms and im suprized it didn't come w/ one to begin with) obviously lowers temps. But there are cars w/ the retrofit that still limp home.

There are ways of 'fixing' an overheating motor.

1. Lower the T-stat operating temp
2. Increase coolant flow/pressure
3. Use more water than coolant
4. Larger radiator
5. re-torque the heads
6. Increase airflow
7. Introduce a wetting agent to the coolant, ie: "water wetter" (Imo the greatest benefit of these products is that they raise the boiling temp of the water, reducing the possibility of hot spots)
8. etc.

However this should not be necessary for a properly designed motor. I think it is worth mentioning that not all n54's 'overheat'(to me this says 'quality control') and the ecu doesn't let it actually overheat.

.02
Zak

Zak, all good points. Technically, Water Wetter DOES NOT raise the boiling point, but lowers the surface tension of water, meaning smaller bubbles and increased surface area covered by the cooling solution in direct contact with the hot metal surfaces of the motor. See Redline's web site. Another technique is lighter weight oil. On the M5 board, simply changing from Castrol TWS 10W-60 to Mobil 1 0W-40 eliminated over heating in some tracked M5's. I'm sure there will be lots of aftermarket solutions to this problem. Last, just shift at 6K RPM instead of Redline, that's what Sabine does in the Ring Taxi M5 when it overheats...loads of power down lower anyway.

[321]

Originally Posted by S62PWR

Zak, all good points. Technically, Water Wetter DOES NOT raise the boiling point, but lowers the surface tension of water, meaning smaller bubbles and increased surface area covered by the cooling solution in direct contact with the hot metal surfaces of the motor. See Redline's web site.

Thx for the correction. :smile:

Another technique is lighter weight oil. On the M5 board, simply changing from Castrol TWS 10W-60 to Mobil 1 0W-40 eliminated over heating in some tracked M5's.

Great point! I forgot about that one. (i would never use mobil 1 on a tracked car but thats too far OT)

Last, just shift at 6K RPM instead of Redline, that's what Sabine does in the Ring Taxi M5 when it overheats...loads of power down lower anyway.

Doesn't the m5 redline at 8250? Who wants to short shift when the bulk of the power is closer to redline? So he still drives it around the track when its overheating? Sorry for the questions but i don't know who Sabine is and have no knowledge about Ring Taxi M5..

[Race 1]

people are bugging out about things too much. Years ago before forums no one would even think of these things and now they are the biggest of concern. I garentee half the people crying about it wont even take the 1 to a track once.

You have a 4 year 50,000 mile warranty and options to add more to that. Relax people, there are problems with every car

[Noize]

I think some people in this thread are getting uber paranoid for no reason and speculation is running out of control. I drive a modded N54 powered 335i every day, and I have actual experience on the matter.

I have a sport manual car, and all of them have the oil cooler.

If your intention of buying this car is to use it as a track slut, this is the wrong one to do it with. Get an M3, S2000, Elise, 350Z, Evo, or Corvette instead.

The car does not have a true limited slip. But neither does a Porsche Cayman S. However, this engine actually generates torque, so that can be an issue. I think using the brakes to minic an LSD is lame. I know the 135i will have better programming than the 335i in this regard, but I run my traction and stab control in full defeat mode anyway. The lack of the diff just means you'll have to be a lot more prudent with throttle modulation.

I've not tracked the car, but I've given it a thorough 45 minute workout on the street testing maps, and whipped it into shape on the dyno. I've never seen a limp mode because of heat issues.

Those of you fussing about brakes, relax- pads and rotors are covered for the first 4 years and 50k under BMW service. Free.

[S62PWR]

Sorry,

I'm a member on a few boards and I forget where I am/who the participants are :frown: Sorry about that.

Sabine is a German woman who grew up next to and raced at the Nurburgring, the most challenging race track in the world. She is now employed by BMW M AND owns her own bar (why can't I find a girl like that :iono. There are a few "Ring Taxis" that BMW uses for marketing that you can hire to get the wee scared out of you. The most exciting 9 minutes of your life. Sabine is sort of a legend on the M5board because, well, they use M5's for the Ring Taxi and Sabine is the coolest Ring Taxi driver. And guess what? The M5's over heat in the Summer, someone interviewed Sabine and asked, what do you do when it overheats and she said "short shift". For your own virtual ride on the "Ring", check out in car vids of the Nurburgring, search Youtube for M5 + Sabine + M5board ... cool stuff.
*** SABINE ***

Here is a good one: Sabine M5 and Porsche 996 GT3

My M5 (E39) this past Summer at Pueblo Motor Sports park did exactly that, overheated about 15 minutes into my afternoon session, so I shifted at 6K and it steadied out. Went around the track nearly as fast as the motor has so much torque/power at the lower RPM's as well. M5 is not really a track car. I have a deposit on a 1 because I'm thinking it will be a lot more fun at the track and be a cool daily driver.

[S62PWR]

Just a couple of comments related to what Noize said.

I think everyone is over reacting too. 99% of the people on this board will never overheat their cars. If you want to track, I think he has good suggestions. Aftermarket LSD's exist for the Cayman (which is a hoot on the track) as they will for the 3 and 135i's. Koala Motorsports has already said they will build one for it. I would think the e-diff electronics are going to take some fiddling with to figure out how to defeat to make compatible with a mechanical LSD. Someone will figure it out.

My opinion (as though anyone gives a rat's *ss) of the cars suggested as a track slut ( I like that term )

1. M3 (great, especially the E36)
2. S2000 (also great, similar match to above)
3. 350Z (sorry, too heavy)
4. Mitsu Evo (they break)
5. Elise (purpose built track rat, not so cool on the street though, way fun, $$$$)
6. Corvette Z06 (kicks everyone's ass, consistently)

I wanna find a track slut :biggrin:

Hey Noize, what mods on your 335i????

[bradford]

The oil temp sender is not at the turbo. It's at the factory "oil cooler" location.

The 1.8t uses an "oil cooler" that is really simply an area where the coolant circulates around the oil line just above the oil filter. It's relatively useless. That's why I added an aftermarket Mocal setup on my old A4.

Worthy of note that Audi has learned that oil coolers are a wise investment. I decided not to get a 135i after all, and got a 2004 S4 instead. I've been doing some mods to it and I noticed that it has TWO oil coolers - one set in each front fender being fed by air scoops next to the fog lights. Remember, this is not even a turbo engine!