How does the 135 really pull?

[ADA///M]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Balls, the reason no one wants to "learn" from you, is because your conclusions just don't make sense.

You go on and on about how the gearing is more important than torque, but you can't explain why the heavier 135i with taller gearing is exactly as fast as your car. Just give it up.

I gave up on him already....lets drop it.

Every car has its hard-core fan boys who wont accept anything less than hearing their car is the best(exactly what he said about "us")....yet he's the exact same way about his car.

Kind of amusing yet hypocritical.

Who cares in the end as long as we enjoy driving our cars?

[Red Bread]

The funny thing here is that neither car is really all that fast in a straight line. BMW makes a number of faster cars if we just want to keep it in the family. Of course a little tunning and the 135i will be much faster in a straight line than an M Coupe with tons of tuning, but neither will ever handle that well, so who cares? It is funny to watch both sides defend their cars though, carry on.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

The funny thing here is that neither car is really all that fast in a straight line. BMW makes a number of faster cars if we just want to keep it in the family. Of course a little tunning and the 135i will be much faster in a straight line than an M Coupe with tons of tuning, but neither will ever handle that well, so who cares? It is funny to watch both sides defend their cars though, carry on.

It's not really about defending the car, it's about the ideas behind what makes a car fast. He keeps trying to say the 135i is peaky, but the torque curve is as flat as a park bench from just above idle to over 5k RPMs. It's the exact opposite of peaky.

[ADA///M]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

The funny thing here is that neither car is really all that fast in a straight line. BMW makes a number of faster cars if we just want to keep it in the family. Of course a little tunning and the 135i will be much faster in a straight line than an M Coupe with tons of tuning, but neither will ever handle that well, so who cares? It is funny to watch both sides defend their cars though, carry on.

The MCoupe handles pretty damn well

[HondaGoneRogue]

I enjoy a spirited debate, or conversation, and I enjoy learning from knowledgeable people. But its hard to ignore the fact that EVERY thread with Balls in it turns into 135i vs z4m debate. Enough already. No one can relate to your torque calc #'s and get a sense of "feel" from it. We use the analogies we use because its common gearhead slang. It seems to me that you are a bit older and maybe in with the wrong audience here. But if you must continue to crusade, then I would like to invite you to a friendly lap around the ring. Let me know whens good for you and I'll be there, with a cameraman. And then we can see all these calculations work out in your favor!

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by HondaGoneRogue

I enjoy a spirited debate, or conversation, and I enjoy learning from knowledgeable people. But its hard to ignore the fact that EVERY thread with Balls in it turns into 135i vs z4m debate. Enough already. No one can relate to your torque calc #'s and get a sense of "feel" from it. We use the analogies we use because its common gearhead slang. It seems to me that you are a bit older and maybe in with the wrong audience here. But if you must continue to crusade, then I would like to invite you to a friendly lap around the ring. Let me know whens good for you and I'll be there, with a cameraman. And then we can see all these calculations work out in your favor!

Right on!

Balls...hey Balls! Balls where are you? BAAALLLSSS where are you hiding? Balls...Balls! It's just "a friendly lap around the ring." There's no reason to be .

[TagMan]

Originally Posted by Balls

This is the kind of senseless response I try so hard to avoid. I'm not putting the 135i down (for the 1000th time). I'm just a gearhead that likes technical talk and doesn't like senseless hype. But if you prefer the "pulls like a freight train" then enjoy. ............

If "pulls like a freight train" is a problem for you, why did you post that you like "an upper end rush".

To be fair, they are both descriptive of a different engine dynamic, the former referring to the levels of low-end torque, and the latter referring to a higher rpm torque curve.

There is no right or wrong here.

I recall the Lotus Elise I owned three years ago. The car was quick, but required so many rpm's from the engine to deliver its power... generally starting above 6K!!!... leaving a small window of ideal upper rpm's. Some would find that ridiculous.

The problem I have with the "upper end rush" is that it is all too easy to hit the engine rpm "limiter", and the engine cuts out to protect itself from over-revving. This results in a more elusive peak shift point, and requires faster shifting at that peak upper rpm. That's fine and dandy, but the lower end torque is much more forgiving, as you can feel the drop off before hitting the engine's "limiter", and you can make the next shift based on the feel of the engine. It's also more intuitive.

Given the two scenarios, which are both legitimate and fun to drive, I have to weigh in on preferring as much low-end torque as I can get, for the reasons I have explained... and the 135i delivers in spades.

TM

[AlienDNA]

Originally Posted by Surname

Alright, don't laugh, I have a 71' Buick Skylark, 350 V-8, 4-barrel, the thing pulls really hard, it's a muscle car. The 135, however, can outrun the Skylark, plus, the 135 scares me half-to-death every weekend when sorties through local mountain twisties beckon. Early-on, reviews frequently characterized the 135i as a 'muscle car'. Apt.

Throttle response from the N54 reminds me of the V-8 in the Buick, with the V-8 there is the slightest, fleeting hesitation prior to the secondaries in the 4-barrel coming on-line, snap your neck against the headrest, kick yer' butt. At that point, hang on, you are now going fast. To borrow a phrase, the 135 pulls like a frickin' freight train. Many have boosted their cars, I'm just fine with the thing staying stock. Scares me enough as it is.:wink:

Hey, no laughing from me. I used to have a '68 Skylark with a 396, as well as a Hemi Dart and a 454 GMC. Your description is exactly right - the 135i reminds me so much of a big-block muscle car, especially the way the front end gets light when you give it the spurs, and the torque is always RIGHT THERE.

On the other hand the braking, handling, comfort, luxury, build quality, reliability, customer service and even fuel economy are the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you get in a '72 Dart. :wink:

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

It's not really about defending the car, it's about the ideas behind what makes a car fast. He keeps trying to say the 135i is peaky, but the torque curve is as flat as a park bench from just above idle to over 5k RPMs. It's the exact opposite of peaky.

I never said it was peaky in stock form. I've seen some dynos from modified N54s that made it more peaky and less smooth, moved the peak torque to the left, and caused the torque falloff to begin a bit sooner. My point there is mods (like software) may increase peak numbers but may not make as much of a change in acceleration as you may try to correlate. Simple as that.

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by TagMan

The problem I have with the "upper end rush" is that it is all too easy to hit the engine rpm "limiter", and the engine cuts out to protect itself from over-revving. This results in a more elusive peak shift point, and requires faster shifting at that peak upper rpm. That's fine and dandy, but the lower end torque is much more forgiving, as you can feel the drop off before hitting the engine's "limiter", and you can make the next shift based on the feel of the engine. It's also more intuitive.

Given the two scenarios, which are both legitimate and fun to drive, I have to weigh in on preferring as much low-end torque as I can get, for the reasons I have explained... and the 135i delivers in spades.

TM

Interesting, mature, and civil input Tag Man, as normal. I would say sound (and feel) alone are enough to let you know where you are in the rev range, if you're in tune to these things. Not sure why bouncing off the rev limiter is a bad thing? It doesn't thwart momentum to a measureable point. I agree it's easy to feel when the torque drops on the N54. However, I already showed the 135i's optimum gear shift point varies by gear despite the constant engine torque curve. Optimum shift points aren't based solely on the perceived torque dip/fall off. Rather, they are based on the point the multiplied torque value drops below the point in which more multiplied torque is available in the next gear. For example. The 135i is producing 990 lb-ft of torque at 7000 rpms in 3rd gear. 4th gear has as much as 1,039 lb-ft of torque available. So revving to 7000 in 3rd is just lost momentum. Better to shift at 6520 when there's still 1,062 lb-ft of torque being delivered to the pavement. Based on your input I assume you would shift at 5600~6000 as at this point you should really feel the torque fall off. Not ideal. Although you can feel the rate of acceleration mimic the torque curve, you can't feel the threshold where the multiplied torque falls short of available multiplied torque in the next gear. So instead of reacting to a rev limiter, you're watching for a fixed point on the rev counter, which varies by gear. I won't pass judgement on that one.

My '79 RX-7 I had way back had a buzzer that sounded when you were at 500 rpms from redline. I thought that was cool and functional. The 135i is the only car I've ever owned where the proper shift points are not redline in all gears.

[m7ammed]

Originally Posted by Balls

Interesting, mature, and civil input Tag Man, as normal. I would say sound (and feel) alone are enough to let you know where you are in the rev range, if you're in tune to these things. Not sure why bouncing off the rev limiter is a bad thing? It doesn't thwart momentum to a measureable point. I agree it's easy to feel when the torque drops on the N54. However, I already showed the 135i's optimum gear shift point varies by gear despite the constant engine torque curve. Optimum shift points aren't based solely on the perceived torque dip/fall off. Rather, they are based on the point the multiplied torque value drops below the point in which more multiplied torque is available in the next gear. For example. The 135i is producing 990 lb-ft of torque at 7000 rpms in 3rd gear. 4th gear has as much as 1,039 lb-ft of torque available. So revving to 7000 in 3rd is just lost momentum. Better to shift at 6520 when there's still 1,062 lb-ft of torque being delivered to the pavement. Based on your input I assume you would shift at 5600~6000 as at this point you should really feel the torque fall off. Not ideal. Although you can feel the rate of acceleration mimic the torque curve, you can't feel the threshold where the multiplied torque falls short of available multiplied torque in the next gear. So instead of reacting to a rev limiter, you're watching for a fixed point on the rev counter, which varies by gear. I won't pass judgement on that one.

My '79 RX-7 I had way back had a buzzer that sounded when you were at 500 rpms from redline. I thought that was cool and functional. The 135i is the only car I've ever owned where the proper shift points are not redline in all gears.

So does that mean that BMW has programmed the auto in DS mode to shift points you are talking about? because I would think that if they were the best points to shift at BMW would have done programmed the auto to do so to get the maximum performance out of the car .

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by adood84

So does that mean that BMW has programmed the auto in DS mode to shift points you are talking about? because I would think that if they were the best points to shift at BMW would have done programmed the auto to do so to get the maximum performance out of the car .

Doubt that. BMW doesn't care if they optimize acceleration for you. They care more about fuel economy. The primarly purpose of this car and most is merely transportation.

Besides, BMW doesn't want to give consumers too much to think about. Same for tuners. Give 'em peak engine numbers and they're happy. Happiness equals spending money. If BMW made the auto shift points at optimum for you, people would think the gearbox is defective. The buying public is in a word...ignorant.

[ADA///M]

Originally Posted by Balls

Doubt that. BMW doesn't care if they optimize acceleration for you. They care more about fuel economy. The primarly purpose of this car and most is merely transportation.

Besides, BMW doesn't want to give consumers too much to think about. Same for tuners. Give 'em peak engine numbers and they're happy. Happiness equals spending money. If BMW made the auto shift points at optimum for you, people would think the gearbox is defective. The buying public is in a word...ignorant.

Sir, I'm not exactly sure what world you live in.

Many many cars have optimum shift points below redline. Especially in the upper gears. This is not uncommon at all.

If youre worried about 10/10ths performance from your vehicle, you should not be buying a 135. You should be looking at a Lotus or a GT3 or a Ferrari...etc....

These cars are transportation, with the added bonus of being "sporty". They are not even true sports cars let alone race cars.

BMW is not out to make an AUTO transmission with ULTIMATE performance. Thats just makes no sense in itself. They make an auto transmission that will be the most reliable for daily driving and the most economical....AS THAT IS WHAT AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSIONS ARE FOR. If someone wants better shift points in an auto....install a Dinan transmission ECU upgrade(if they even have one for this car yet) or sellt he car and buy a manual one.

Let it go my man...let it go. Go drive your MShoe somewhere and admire yourself for having a car with optimum shift points. I'm sure all the girlies will be lined up to hang out with such a cool guy with such amazing shift points.

[lambammm]

it's pretty clear that balls is simply one of those individuals with an M car that is pissed off that a 135i can keep up with no problems. there are a lot of these. M car owners and people who say NA is the only way to go. yadda yadda yadda regardless of what balls wants to say, the 135i goes 0-60 in under 5 seconds stock. we win.

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by ADA///M

Sir, I'm not exactly sure what world you live in.

Many many cars have optimum shift points below redline. Especially in the upper gears. This is not uncommon at all.

If youre worried about 10/10ths performance from your vehicle, you should not be buying a 135. You should be looking at a Lotus or a GT3 or a Ferrari...etc....

These cars are transportation, with the added bonus of being "sporty". They are not even true sports cars let alone race cars.

BMW is not out to make an AUTO transmission with ULTIMATE performance. Thats just makes no sense in itself. They make an auto transmission that will be the most reliable for daily driving and the most economical....AS THAT IS WHAT AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSIONS ARE FOR. If someone wants better shift points in an auto....install a Dinan transmission ECU upgrade(if they even have one for this car yet) or sellt he car and buy a manual one.

Let it go my man...let it go. Go drive your MShoe somewhere and admire yourself for having a car with optimum shift points. I'm sure all the girlies will be lined up to hang out with such a cool guy with such amazing shift points.

You're funny. MShoe. LOL. When I want 10/10s I just hop on my MV. It traps at over 150 mph in the 1/4 mile. For sure I've experienced speed and the rush of accleration on pavement you can't comprehend. But it's just another toy. Nonetheless, you're lying to yourself if you actually believe you wouldn't rather have my car sitting in your garage. Please tell I full of it so I can laugh at you some more. Please, please...