What is the perfect negative camber?

[aritala]

So I just purchased a set of M3 Front Control Arms, Rear Guide Rods, M3 Sway Bar, Dinan Rear Shock Mount Kit, Bilstein B12 Suspension Kit and Dinan Camber Plates for my 135i. My question is whether the Dinan plates will be over-kill as far as negative camber in light of all the other suspension upgrades. The plates give an additional -0.7 camber and I know the other improvements add their own varying degrees of negative camber.

In light of all the other upgrades, will the plates: 1) cause the car to have that dreaded "stanced nation" look (i am opposed to any noticeable/visible stancing) and 2) will the plates cause the tires to go bad prematurely and result in even tire wear? If so, how much sooner than normal under the same driving conditions?

I am not planning to seriously track the car at this time, I just want a firmer, planted and more responsive ride as a daily driver. I also have JB4, Catless Dp's and BMS DCI as well.

[Ski Killset]

I have the Dinan plates, M3 arms and Cobb springs on koni yellows (switching to Moron Club Sports tomorrow), I run -2.5 front with zero toe. No unusual wear. On a modern tire your wear comes from too much toe. Not camber.

[Ski Killset]

And no, -2.5.is not stance.

[The Wind Breezes]

Since it sounds like you're probably not maxing out your cornering, perfect camber for you is stock camber or less for better tire wear. Seriously, why buy all those mods when you don't even plan to track the car?

[aritala]

Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes

Since it sounds like you're probably not maxing out your cornering, perfect camber for you is stock camber or less for better tire wear. Seriously, why buy all those mods when you don't even plan to track the car?

With the added power of the JB4 and catless DP's (and even without) there's a lot more power going to the wheels than than the stock suspension can optimally handle and when you get rid of the runflats like I did the suspension is just way too soft. Even for joyrides and street use. There's too much understeer. Down the line I'd like to do some tracking too so part of it is that I want to slowly get the car up to shape as well.

[fcman]

If you're mainly looking for a more connected feel, seems like M3 rsf bushings would be far more effective. Camber plates are completely unnecessary unless you are hitting the track IMO.

On another note, you shouldn't be doing all these mods without also doing the M3 bushings

[aritala]

Originally Posted by fcman

If you're mainly looking for a more connected feel, seems like M3 rsf bushings would be far more effective. Camber plates are completely unnecessary unless you are hitting the track IMO.

On another note, you shouldn't be doing all these mods without also doing the M3 bushings

I forgot to mention that I did purchase the M3 rear subframe bushings at well. Yeah the consensus I'm getting it that unless you're really pushing it at the corners you won't won't be able to offset the wear caused by negative camber, I think I might just leave the plates off at this point.

[dtla1]

Originally Posted by aritala

I forgot to mention that I did purchase the M3 rear subframe bushings at well. Yeah the consensus I'm getting it that unless you're really pushing it at the corners you won't won't be able to offset the wear caused by negative camber, I think I might just leave the plates off at this point.

CAMBER IS NOT THE #1 CAUSE FOR UNEVEN TIRE WEAR. TOE WILL CAUSE UNEVEN WEAR.

Yes I wrote that in all capitals because you seemed to have missed someone else that mentioned this earlier.

[aritala]

Originally Posted by dtla1

CAMBER IS NOT THE #1 CAUSE FOR UNEVEN TIRE WEAR. TOE WILL CAUSE UNEVEN WEAR.

Yes I wrote that in all capitals because you seemed to have missed someone else that mentioned this earlier.

My toe is set to zero right now so assuming toe is kept at zero how much affect would the plates affect wear?

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by dtla1

CAMBER IS NOT THE #1 CAUSE FOR UNEVEN TIRE WEAR. TOE WILL CAUSE UNEVEN WEAR.

Yes I wrote that in all capitals because you seemed to have missed someone else that mentioned this earlier.

Thank you!

Camber does not wear out tires compared to toe.

[MightyMouseTech]

I run M3 arms and Dinan plates. Camber is -2.7.

My tires are wearing perfectly, and that is, so far, 100% street driving.

[MightyMouseTech]

I run M3 arms and Dinan plates. Camber is -2.7.

My tires are wearing perfectly, and that is, so far, 100% street driving.

[aritala]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

I run M3 arms and Dinan plates. Camber is -2.7.

My tires are wearing perfectly, and that is, so far, 100% street driving.

Do you feel like the plates give you extra noticeable feel in addition to the arms?

Also, do you tires have any visual stancing or they look completely straight?

[The Wind Breezes]

Originally Posted by aritala

With the added power of the JB4 and catless DP's (and even without) there's a lot more power going to the wheels than than the stock suspension can optimally handle and when you get rid of the runflats like I did the suspension is just way too soft. Even for joyrides and street use. There's too much understeer. Down the line I'd like to do some tracking too so part of it is that I want to slowly get the car up to shape as well.

Thanks for proving you have absolutely no idea what you're doing. A stock car will easily go fast enough to max out any turn you want, and you control your own pace in the turns. Braking is certainly important when you add power, because you never get a choice in stopping once you accelerate...and guess what decreases braking performance: camber!

If you think the understeer of a stock suspension setup is "holding you back" on the street...just lol.

For the rear you obviously want zero camber for max acceleration. If you're concerned about the car's roadholding now that it has added power, why not just give yourself 0 camber in the rear for more longitudinal grip? That will help your car oversteer too. Note, don't actually do this, you want negative camber in the rear or the car will be a handful at the wrong times.

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by aritala

Do you feel like the plates give you extra noticeable feel in addition to the arms?

Also, do you tires have any visual stancing or they look completely straight?

Steering feels much better, at all speeds. You don't need to be on a track to notice the difference.

Does not looked "stanced" at all. I really hate that shit.

[MightyMouseTech]

I run M3 arms and Dinan plates. Camber is -2.7.

My tires are wearing perfectly, and that is, so far, 100% street driving.

Edit: Weird, this was a reply I made last night, for some reason did not show up till today.

[MightyMouseTech]

Sorry, this is the only pic I have of the car after the install.

[aritala]

Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes

Thanks for proving you have absolutely no idea what you're doing. A stock car will easily go fast enough to max out any turn you want, and you control your own pace in the turns. Braking is certainly important when you add power, because you never get a choice in stopping once you accelerate...and guess what decreases braking performance: camber!

If you think the understeer of a stock suspension setup is "holding you back" on the street...just lol.

For the rear you obviously want zero camber for max acceleration. If you're concerned about the car's roadholding now that it has added power, why not just give yourself 0 camber in the rear for more longitudinal grip? That will help your car oversteer too. Note, don't actually do this, you want negative camber in the rear or the car will be a handful at the wrong times.

If you read what I wrote I said I wanted to get the car ready for track use "down the line," not at this exact moment. So the understeer issue is something I want to address proactively while I'm doing all this other suspension work so that I can save on labor time. Otherwise I'm gonna have to go back in later and that doesn't make financial sense. I appreciate constructive feedback but there's no need to be a dick about it. Also, a lot of people are saying that toe affects tire wear a lot more than camber. These are specs I'm at right now with a totally stock suspension.

[MightyMouseTech]

Hopefully after the updates they do a better alignment than that one, or was that the before specs?

[dtla1]

Originally Posted by aritala

My toe is set to zero right now so assuming toe is kept at zero how much affect would the plates affect wear?

The plates will add negative camber, which, because of suspension geometry will affect toe. Changing one thing without touching the other does have an effect. This might not be an issue if it was a minor adjustment, but adding 3/4* of camber will have a significant affect on toe, until of course you get an alignment done and you dial the toe back out.

[aritala]

Originally Posted by dtla1

The plates will add negative camber, which, because of suspension geometry will affect toe. Changing one thing without touching the other does have an effect. This might not be an issue if it was a minor adjustment, but adding 3/4* of camber will have a significant affect on toe, until of course you get an alignment done and you dial the toe back out.

So if my camber is set to -2.5 and I get it aligned after to set the toe to zero will I have marginal/negligible tire wear compared with stock camber? Also, will the negative camber continue to affect toe after the alignment so much that I will need to get frequent alignments? Since it seems like -2.5 doesnt look stanced my main concern now is tire wear.

[aritala]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

I run M3 arms and Dinan plates. Camber is -2.7.

My tires are wearing perfectly, and that is, so far, 100% street driving.

Edit: Weird, this was a reply I made last night, for some reason did not show up till today.

That's awesome. Car looks real clean btw. What is your toe set at?

That was my after. These were my before settings I think.