RB Turbos & Vargas Turbos

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by KD135

anyone keen to maybe sort a groupbuy ?

Hey KD,

I could certainly sort a GB on Rob Beck turbos, as I email Rob on a regular basis and speak on the phone from time to time, I would say I've developed a good rapport with the guy.

But as I said earlier I do not think we have enough guys within Aus, that are ready to purchase RBs at this point in time.

To make the exercise worthwhile and provide a discount that is noteworthy, I would assume Rob would need an order for at least 5 sets of RHD turbochargers, yeah?

If anyone else other than KD is semi interested in a group buy, please PM me and if I receive a number of inquiries I'll speak to Rob and see what we can sort out.

Cheers,

JD.

[yawn]

Guess it comes down to the dollar

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by sharkatron

Guess it comes down to the dollar

Well that took all of 30 minutes...

Anyway I have a bunch of PMs and email inquiries to respond to.

Thanks for the positive comment, have a nice day.

[yawn]

Wasn't trying to be smart at all - just have to weigh it up against the cost of oem that's all. As in how much more performance for the dollars?

Edit: actually what is the cost of getting new oem turbos?

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by sharkatron

Wasn't trying to be smart at all - just have to weigh it up against the cost of oem that's all. As in how much more performance for the dollars?

Edit: actually what is the cost of getting new oem turbos?

Ok no problem, my bad!

I had not received my morning caffeine fix when I replied earlier, perhaps I was feeling a bit testy, apologies.

I am not too familiar with the price of new OEM turbos, perhaps someone else can chime in with some recent figures.

[yawn]

No worries - looking back at my comment I can see how that could have been misconstrued

Yeah, if anyone could chime in for cost of oem that would be helpful - and from where apart from the stealership!

[JB4-335]

New OEM turbos cost anywhere between $1200-$1500.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by JB4135

New OEM turbos cost anywhere between $1200-$1500.

Which is the price of vargas stage 1's ish which make a TINY bit more than stock haha

[froop]

Originally Posted by Justin@ADVAN Performance

Hey flinchy,

yeah there is not a lot of solid info out there on the VTT "Stage 2's" which is a bit surprising, as these were initially released to customers as beta sets, for the purposes of testing and evaluation.

I have not read anything about the turbo "options" you refer to, but if Vargas swap out their TF035HL "fullback" wheel for an "actual" TD04L wheel, the cost of the Vargas turbochargers will go up quite a bit. They will have to machine the exhaust housings for readaptation of the larger TD04 centresection, which is a MUST if they go to TD04L wheel.

Right now the original OEM TD03 centresections are being used with the 035... exhaust wheel, at a considerable saving of machining time over the use of a true TD04 centresection.

As it stands right now Rob's turbochargers are only $300 more when compared to the VTT S2's with the upgraded thrust component option, assuming equivalent shipping charges, core charges and import duties/taxes (which they all should be).

Prior to VTT/Tony coming onto the scene, RBs cost quite a bit more to purchase. Competition has forced Rob to revise his prices downwards, which is good news indeed for the N54 enthusiast.

It is great to have options when upgrading the turbochargers on your vehicle and major props go to Tony for his advancement of the N54 platform and the achievements made in such a very short space of time. However for the sake of a $300 difference between Rob Beck Turbochargers and VTT "Stage 2's", I know where my money would be going.

Yes,

thanks Adrian.

"DynaNewtons" is a relative measure of the tractive effort or force applied to the rollers on a "Dyno Dynamics" dyno.

The figure is dependant upon gear selection and final drive ratio and perhaps tyre size too, ummm Adrian?

Hi Justin,

In lieu of the new upgrades on the VTT Stage 2s with the 9 blade custom TD04L exhaust wheel and optional billet Aluminium compressor wheels, what would be your thoughts now?

Alex

[adrian@vishnu]

Is there any results for them? With turbos, all the technology in the world will not make up for poorly matched components. Often something may look good on paper and not work as expected.

[Tab135]

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

Is there any results for them? With turbos, all the technology in the world will not make up for poorly matched components. Often something may look good on paper and not work as expected.

exactly my thoughts, maybe they sound better than they really are ?

[adrian@vishnu]

With turbos, old technology can work great if well matched, and new technology can work badly if badly matched. Have seen this many times in other markets. I suspect the real bottle neck in this application is the exhaust housing. Selection of a turbine to match the exhaust housing/machining would be critical to minimise back pressure whilst still providing good spool/lag. The comp wheel is probably not as critical, but would need to be matched to the max expected flow with good efficiency in that area. I don't even think latest comp wheel technology would make that much difference, as the turbo is small for the application, so the spool/lag is not that much of an issue.

I find the latest technology in turbos has great range, and is good for extending max power without compromising lag/spool... or for improving lag/spool while making the same max power. In this case the exhaust housing is the limitation, so new tech would be best to improve lag/spool which is not really an issue on this engine.

But if they can provide results and they work well.... then go for it!!

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by KD135

exactly my thoughts, maybe they sound better than they really are ?

We will know soon enough. So much speculation and outside factors going into comparing the turbo systems out there.

I am getting the new Vargas stage 2+ which will be installed by Vargas. Shortly after Cobb (SoCal) will be protuning my car for e30, 91, and 93.

My deposit was placed 3 weeks ago so they should begin building them soon.

I only want the car to put down around 480-515ish HP.

[froop]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

We will know soon enough. So much speculation and outside factors going into comparing the turbo systems out there.

I am getting the new Vargas stage 2+ which will be installed by Vargas. Shortly after Cobb (SoCal) will be protuning my car for e30, 91, and 93.

My deposit was placed 3 weeks ago so they should begin building them soon.

I only want the car to put down around 480-515ish HP.

"only"

Definitely keep us updated once you get them. I'm quite interested in getting some upgraded turbos eventually but still not sure who to go with. The new updates for the Stage 2's look promising though. Will you be getting the optional billet aluminium wheel?

I do find it strange that the VTT Stage 2's have been around for about 6 months now yet I struggle to find any dyno results of them except for one guy with a low boost conservative tune making only in the low to mid 400s HP. Maybe I just don't know where to look...

[DR-JEKL]

Originally Posted by froop

I do find it strange that the VTT Stage 2's have been around for about 6 months now yet I struggle to find any dyno results of them except for one guy with a low boost conservative tune making only in the low to mid 400s HP. Maybe I just don't know where to look...

Yeah I have continually seen a user state that he will be chucking it on the dyno 'next week' for a few months now...

Like any new product I'm guessing they have had a few issues...

[froop]

Originally Posted by DR-JEKL

Yeah I have continually seen a user state that he will be chucking it on the dyno 'next week' for a few months now...

Like any new product I'm guessing they have had a few issues...

I read in Tony@Vargas' thread that beta testers were sending through their dyno's and results straight through to him and they 'looked good' but I guess weren't ever released to the general public which is a bit disappointing. I'm hoping that since these are 100% production products that someone will actually post up some proper dyno results using an appropriate (hopefully aggressive) tune so we can see what these turbos can actually do.

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by froop

"only"

Definitely keep us updated once you get them. I'm quite interested in getting some upgraded turbos eventually but still not sure who to go with. The new updates for the Stage 2's look promising though. Will you be getting the optional billet aluminium wheel?

I do find it strange that the VTT Stage 2's have been around for about 6 months now yet I struggle to find any dyno results of them except for one guy with a low boost conservative tune making only in the low to mid 400s HP. Maybe I just don't know where to look...

I will make a lengthy write up and be posting continual updates.

I am doing full maxed out stage 2's with all upgrade options.

They were experimenting with a lot of different tuning options with the stage 2's. my car see's the track and is hardly a dyno queen / drag car so I opted for the stage 2 over the stage 3. Our car's with a mild tune have much more obvious weaknesses than power when driving on a road course.

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by froop

Hi Justin,

In lieu of the new upgrades on the VTT Stage 2s with the 9 blade custom TD04L exhaust wheel and optional billet Aluminium compressor wheels, what would be your thoughts now?


Alex

Once again I will be awaiting proper dyno results and logs that show boost response throughout the entire rev range. Contrary to what some have said, the dyno results and logs from the "Stage 2" Beta testers suggested the turbocharges were slow to spool in comparison to RBs, by as much as 750 rpm.

However a custom exhaust turbine that has the same inducer diameter as the RB TD04L exhaust wheel, should level the playing field with regards spool up, as it will be a much better match for the MHI TD04-15T comp' wheel than that of the TF035HL "fullback" wheel, implemented in the VTT Beta sets.

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

Is there any results for them? With turbos, all the technology in the world will not make up for poorly matched components. Often something may look good on paper and not work as expected.

Yes, my thoughts exactly but all the same I am keen to see the results.

Originally Posted by KD135

exactly my thoughts, maybe they sound better than they really are ?

Well the option of using the billet GTX compressor wheel does sound nice on paper and whilst it may not have a super significant effect on spool speed (as Adrian discusses below) is should at the very least allow for the same airflow as the old tech MHI 15T compressor wheel at less shaft speed, which is a good thing indeed. This reduction in shaft speed at a given boost level, has the potential to increase the service life and reliability of the turbochargers.

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

With turbos, old technology can work great if well matched, and new technology can work badly if badly matched. Have seen this many times in other markets. I suspect the real bottle neck in this application is the exhaust housing. Selection of a turbine to match the exhaust housing/machining would be critical to minimise back pressure whilst still providing good spool/lag. The comp wheel is probably not as critical, but would need to be matched to the max expected flow with good efficiency in that area. I don't even think latest comp wheel technology would make that much difference, as the turbo is small for the application, so the spool/lag is not that much of an issue.

I find the latest technology in turbos has great range, and is good for extending max power without compromising lag/spool... or for improving lag/spool while making the same max power. In this case the exhaust housing is the limitation, so new tech would be best to improve lag/spool which is not really an issue on this engine.

But if they can provide results and they work well.... then go for it!!

Once again thanks for your input Adrian.

You are always "Johnny on the spot" when it comes time to sorting out fact from fanfare and your ongoing contribution to the N54/N55 community is very much appreciated.

Cheers,

JD.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

Is there any results for them? With turbos, all the technology in the world will not make up for poorly matched components. Often something may look good on paper and not work as expected.

yes, there is/was 1 or 2 guys running them

i think there may have been posts on bimmerpost, and definitely on BB

same sized exh wheels as RB now at least, with a different fin design

should HOPEFULLY at least level the playing field totally, assuming the original stage 2's weren't quite up to scratch

Originally Posted by froop

I read in Tony@Vargas' thread that beta testers were sending through their dyno's and results straight through to him and they 'looked good' but I guess weren't ever released to the general public which is a bit disappointing. I'm hoping that since these are 100% production products that someone will actually post up some proper dyno results using an appropriate (hopefully aggressive) tune so we can see what these turbos can actually do.

they still sold a full batch of the original stage 2's, and are offering an upgrade swap option to the newer design for cheap

so it's not like they went 'well these are terrible' at least?

though yes, in for tons of dyno results

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by flinchy

yes, there is/was 1 or 2 guys running them

i think there may have been posts on bimmerpost, and definitely on BB

same sized comp wheels as RB now at least, with a different fin design

should HOPEFULLY at least level the playing field totally, assuming the original stage 2's weren't quite up to scratch

Hey flinchy,

the original VTT "Stage 2's" always used the exact same TD04-15T compressor wheel as RB turbos. It was the exhaust wheel that was undersized in comparison to the RB TD04L turbine.

Now it would appear (at least visually) the revised Vargas turbos use an exhaust wheel with the same inducer diameter as RBs, but the wheel is of a 9 blade design with a more aggressive profile.

Here are some comparative specs, the Vargas turbos listed here were the original "Stage 2's".

RB: TD04L- well matched to 13G thru 16T compressors
Inducer 1.850”/Exducer 1.620”/Tip 0.320”

Vargas: TF035HL- well matched to 10T thru 14G compressors
Inducer 1.700”/Exducer 1.484”/Tip 0.272”

OEM: TD03L- well matched to 7T to 10T compressors
Inducer 1.550”/Exducer 1.365”/Tip 0.260”

Cheers,

JD.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by Justin@ADVAN Performance

Hey flinchy,

the original VTT "Stage 2's" always used the exact same TD04-15T compressor wheel as RB turbos. It was the exhaust wheel that was undersized in comparison to the RB TD04L turbine.

Now it would appear (at least visually) the revised Vargas turbos use an exhaust wheel with the same inducer diameter as RBs, but the wheel is of a 9 blade design with a more aggressive profile.

Here are some comparative specs, the Vargas turbos listed here were the original "Stage 2's".

RB: TD04L- well matched to 13G thru 16T compressors
Inducer 1.850”/Exducer 1.620”/Tip 0.320”

Vargas: TF035HL- well matched to 10T thru 14G compressors
Inducer 1.700”/Exducer 1.484”/Tip 0.272”

OEM: TD03L- well matched to 7T to 10T compressors
Inducer 1.550”/Exducer 1.365”/Tip 0.260”

Cheers,

JD.

sorry, i meant exhaust wheel not comp, got it mixed around

[Kiwi Peter]

All this talk about turbos, as far as i am concerned the RB turbos are the best bolt ons at this stage until proven wrong.

We have had two cars with RB systems on the Dyno so we have some good bench mark power curves, boost plots and torque numbers.

I would be keen to dyno a Vargas stage 2 setup and do some real back to back testing, only then will we know how good or bad the Vargas turbos are.

No matter how you look at the factory turbo system, mods or not its crap.
The whole system is to small and makes to much heat best place for it is in the bin.

But we have to make the most of what we have even if we know its not great, so here we have it the bolt on turbo race RB or Vargas

When i tune an old Skyline with a 20 year old RB26 engine that makes 400 or 500KW atw i have a smile from ear to ear i know that one day soon we will have the N54 making that sort of power with the same boost, whats holding us back is time and a few $$$.

there is a lot of work to do its not just about the turbos we have to keep the whole thing cool, there is still a lot of work to do with the management system and fuel system, the list is long and will cost heaps but as the value of these cars go down more and more people will spend on real mods, not just the simple bolt on stuff that most are doing at the moment.