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      08-21-2011, 09:53 PM   #155
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I'm done pointing out bias and arguing over it.

That is all.

I PM'd you my responses to that comment, as I clearly said I was not going to do this anymore.
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      08-21-2011, 10:51 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBK View Post
I'm done pointing out bias and arguing over it.

That is all.
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Originally Posted by BBK View Post
I PM'd you my responses to that comment, as I clearly said I was not going to do this anymore.
If you can keep to what you have said above, that would be great.
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      08-21-2011, 10:57 PM   #157
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I'm done pointing out bias and arguing over it.

That is all.

Nearly took your bait!

No comment...





So back on topic. Kenny, when are you going to get a 1/4 mile time?!

Last edited by BBK; 08-21-2011 at 11:03 PM..
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      08-21-2011, 11:38 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBK View Post
So back on topic. Kenny, when are you going to get a 1/4 mile time?!
I'm going next Wednesday so you should come along Kenny weather permitting.
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      08-22-2011, 03:37 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by BBK View Post
Nearly took your bait!

No comment...





So back on topic. Kenny, when are you going to get a 1/4 mile time?!
Saturday September 17.

I'm happy to go out with him any time sooner he wants to go out for some fun.
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      08-22-2011, 08:12 AM   #160
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Mate I hear you but for a DD you've got to draw the line somewhere! It all comes down to how much play money one has and which toy you want to direct the funds to. Some are lucky enough to have sufficient funds to do everything at once, not me!

Vinney the PWM system has totally different "nozzles". By that I mean it does not use the same type of nozzle hardware as Cooling Mist or Devil's Own etc nozzles.

Sorry I don't really know anything about JB4 and CoolingMist methanol setup so I can't comment.

Hope you get your meth kit issues sorted, it's very frustrating when your car isn't running to it's potential.
Agreed Kenny! Cars are never ending money pits! I'll keep checking in here to see the progress of your build though as there's always good information here

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu View Post
Just to infrom you guys of the Meth kit options. The unit Kenny has is quite different to any of the cooling mist options. Here are the options commonly used on the BMW platform:

* Basic kit with no integration to tune. This system is completely independant of the tune with no failsafe. Normally consists of a controller that ramps a pump up between low and highs speed between two configurable boost settings. Typically used with tunes that cannot support a failsafe (flash tunes or stock).

* Basic kit with failsafe. Similar to above but adds failsafe that is input into the tune. The failsafe is a signal used by the tune to make the tune more aggressive when meth is flowing, and to pull the tune back to safe if the meth stops flowing for any reason. This is the most common system currently in use and is representitive of the typical cooling mist/JB setup. It is also the system that was initially sold by Vishnu as the gen 1 system using Labonte meth parts.

* Flow controlled by tune. Similar to above, but instead of the controller having two boost settings for min and max flow, the tune outputs a signal that the controller uses to set the pump speed. This has a big advantage that when using big jets, as you can reduce the meth flow at low RPM and increase it at high RPM reducing the effects of meth quench/bog, and reducing meth usage. This is a fairly new thing from BMS. Not sure how many people are using a system like this. I do not believe many (if any) of the Aussies are using it.

* PWM. This is the system Kenny is running. This system is quite different in the hardware to any of above. The primary difference is the presence of a high speed solenoid that is pulsed like a fuel injector. The pump is run at full speed all the time in boost. The meth flow is controlled in the same way as a fuel injector controls flow. The tune sends a high frequency duty cycle waveform that completely turns the flow off when the solenoid is off and runs max flow when it is on. By tuning a map inside the tune you can set the duty cycle of the signal for any desired flow at any operating conditions. At 50% you get 50% flow even though the pump has full output pressure. As with fuel injection, the benefit of this system over above is that you get good atomisation of the meth as the pump is always running at full output pressure, but you can still reduce the meth flow at low RPM in a highly accurate and repeatable way to avoid meth quench/bog and reduce meth usage. This sytem is currently only available from Aquamist, and the Vishnu Meth uses this Aquamist system in there latest gen 2 meth system. In addition, the system also include a new type of flow sensor that is very compact and reliable with minimla moving parts, and can maintain reliability in 100% meth that is used for failsafe.

So that is a description of the differences in Kenny's meth upgrade. Of course all the meth systems are capable of similar power outputs as evidenced by Kenny's car making similar power to previous with the new system. The new system however will use less meth on average, and will benefit more from the meth in the light to medium loads for better drivability due to more accurate meth flow control and better meth atomisation.

Adrian
Thanks for the information Adrian. I've got the Coolingmist FSB meth kit but can't vouch for it yet as I haven't got it to work with my JB4. I can't seem to get any stable flow and flow is only half what is should be. My pump source is tapped into the windscreen washer line and I can only get full flow by purging the windscreen washers whilst going WOT. I can't understand why this is happening yet. From what I understand the FSB is very clever in providing adequate protection though. It seems like the new Aquamist kit is quite advanced, sounds very technical but I think I've got the jist of how it works. I'll keep checking in on this thread to see how this system holds up.

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Originally Posted by JB4135 View Post
I'm going next Wednesday so you should come along Kenny weather permitting.
I'm keen to see what times you're putting down Edwin. I'd like to hit the drags soon but I'm embarrassed to run my wipers whilst going WOT down the quarter lol.
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      08-22-2011, 06:16 PM   #161
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BMW86,

Your setup is the same as 90% of the setups out there. It is safe.. no problems there. The diffference with the new systems is in the way the meth flow is controlled... not in the safety. The new systems allow the flow of meth to be more accurately controlled and tuned to the engine requirements. The system you run will run the same meth at 3000RPM at full boost as at 6000RPM even though the engine is consuming almost double the air at 6000 then at 3000. This is not an issue with smaller jets which are not flowing that much meth anyway. It becomes an issue with bigger jets/larger turbos etc. when you have to set the meth flow up to max for high RPM, but you end up getting too much flow at low RPM which can cause drivability issues due to meth bog/quench. My experience is that this is much more of an issue on a manual transmission as the throttle closes for the gear change, but the meth keeps flowing and pools up behind the throttle and then dumps in when the throttle opens.

I am sure your setup will be perfectly fine for your application once you can sort out the flow issues you are having.
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      08-22-2011, 07:06 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu View Post
BMW86,

Your setup is the same as 90% of the setups out there. It is safe.. no problems there. The diffference with the new systems is in the way the meth flow is controlled... not in the safety. The new systems allow the flow of meth to be more accurately controlled and tuned to the engine requirements. The system you run will run the same meth at 3000RPM at full boost as at 6000RPM even though the engine is consuming almost double the air at 6000 then at 3000. This is not an issue with smaller jets which are not flowing that much meth anyway. It becomes an issue with bigger jets/larger turbos etc. when you have to set the meth flow up to max for high RPM, but you end up getting too much flow at low RPM which can cause drivability issues due to meth bog/quench. My experience is that this is much more of an issue on a manual transmission as the throttle closes for the gear change, but the meth keeps flowing and pools up behind the throttle and then dumps in when the throttle opens.

I am sure your setup will be perfectly fine for your application once you can sort out the flow issues you are having.
That makes a lot more sense. The adjustably of meth flow at different rpm's does sound very beneficial as it could save a lot of meth. Also makes sense to have it in manual transmissions. I'm not sure why I am consuming so much meth either so this would be very handy for me unless I can get to the bottom of it! How big are the jets on the new Vishnu kit? Are they equivalent to a CM10?

As for the safety, BMS is providing extra protection with the introduction of a new wire that connects from the FSB wire to the ground. This only came out today. It's not needed but it's a recommended and free upgrade. It does give me more piece of mind, especially since my kit is not fully functional just yet.
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      08-22-2011, 07:18 PM   #163
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The new Vishnu kit has twin jets. I believe they would be equivalent in size to CM7s. It sounds like you are consuming alot of meth as you are cleaning your windscreen when on meth!!

Sounds like BMS have found a grounding issue with the FSB. With analogue signals such as the failsafe uses, you need to have a common reference signal ground at the source of the signal and the destination for the signal. Sounds like they are fixing that up.
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      08-22-2011, 07:53 PM   #164
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I am having similar issues to Vinney, hopefully we can get it sorted sooner rather then later.
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      08-22-2011, 07:54 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu View Post
The new Vishnu kit has twin jets. I believe they would be equivalent in size to CM7s. It sounds like you are consuming alot of meth as you are cleaning your windscreen when on meth!!

Sounds like BMS have found a grounding issue with the FSB. With analogue signals such as the failsafe uses, you need to have a common reference signal ground at the source of the signal and the destination for the signal. Sounds like they are fixing that up.
I have an extra bung in my charge pipe so could go down a similar path in the future. I'm not sure why I'm consuming extra meth but meth doesn't spray onto the windscreen, I have tapped the line but I have to run the wipers whilst going WOT to purge the system and this creates more meth flow. I think the added pressure from the windscreen washer motor helps the flow rate.

BMS said there is no grounding issue but the additional wire to the FSB installation to increase the voltage surge protection to the FSB unit. A few faulty FSB have showed up so I understand it's extra protection.

Anyways, will read up more on this new meth kit, does sound very interesting
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      08-22-2011, 08:27 PM   #166
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The BMS kit and the Vishnu kit are different in the way the meth is metered. There has been no cases of bogging in the midrange with MT. One important thing to remember is any reduction in methanol usage will be met with an equal increase in gasoline usage.
The fueling system is closed loop. If you inject more meth you simply
use less gas and vice versa.
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      08-22-2011, 08:30 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB4135 View Post
The BMS kit and the Vishnu kit are different in the way the meth is metered. There has been no cases of bogging in the midrange with MT. One important thing to remember is any reduction in methanol usage will be met with an equal increase in gasoline usage.
The fueling system is closed loop. If you inject more meth you simply
use less gas and vice versa.
Edwin, without sounding like a pain. Did you get my email?
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      08-22-2011, 08:36 PM   #168
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Edwin, without sounding like a pain. Did you get my email?
Sorry Matt. just replyed.
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      08-22-2011, 08:45 PM   #169
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JB4135,

I have actually never had a meth bog quench issue with any Vishnu meth system. This is because I have never used a Vishnu setup with large jets. The car I am running into issues with is a cooling mist setup with large jets. It would probably be fine with normal size jets. I am not knocking this system, as I am sure the gen 1 Vishnu system with the same jets would have the same problem as it works in the same way. It is a limitation of first gen type systems that run full meth flow at low RPM. If you hold it under load on the dyno at 2000 for more than a second or so in the preramp before a dyno run starts to ramp to get to full boost, it will completely break down and fall over and you have to pull out of the dyno run. This is at 12+ psi at 2000RPM with recommended min/max setting of 8/12psi. To be clear: I am not saying the cooling mist is any better/worse than any other system that works in the same way. It is just a problem with large jets running full flow and low RPM, and there is evidence of many others having similar issues if you search the forums.... some with smaller jets. So please note that I am saying that I have only experienced this with large jet setups, and have never experienced this with the typical sized setup that most people run, so most people are fine with this system.

You are completely correct that the fuel system is closed loop. This means that regardless of the presence of meth, the DME will attempt to get to the same AFRs. The issue is that it is is possible to put in so much meth that the DME has pulled all the fuel it can, and the mixtures are still too rich. Further to this, meth is harder to burn than petrol, and therefore it will cause a missfire more easily than petrol at the same AFR. This missfire is the cause of the bog/quench. Even further to that, the DME has long and short term fuel corrections. If you squirt alot of meth so that the DME pulls petrol to get AFR targets, the trims will be effected by this, and it will take some time for them to recover which can give some drivability issues. Techically you are correct that the meth you are using is saving you petrol, but I have not met anyone that would rather fill their 5L meth tank than their 50L fuel tank. Especially considering that you will not use the meth system unless in boost, so it will have negligable effect on petrol usage, but may mean you have to fill up the meth twice as often.

Adrian
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      08-22-2011, 09:11 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu View Post
JB4135,

I have actually never had a meth bog quench issue with any Vishnu meth system. This is because I have never used a Vishnu setup with large jets. The car I am running into issues with is a cooling mist setup with large jets. It would probably be fine with normal size jets. I am not knocking this system, as I am sure the gen 1 Vishnu system with the same jets would have the same problem as it works in the same way. It is a limitation of first gen type systems that run full meth flow at low RPM. If you hold it under load on the dyno at 2000 for more than a second or so in the preramp before a dyno run starts to ramp to get to full boost, it will completely break down and fall over and you have to pull out of the dyno run. This is at 12+ psi at 2000RPM with recommended min/max setting of 8/12psi. To be clear: I am not saying the cooling mist is any better/worse than any other system that works in the same way. It is just a problem with large jets running full flow and low RPM, and there is evidence of many others having similar issues if you search the forums.... some with smaller jets. So please note that I am saying that I have only experienced this with large jet setups, and have never experienced this with the typical sized setup that most people run, so most people are fine with this system.

You are completely correct that the fuel system is closed loop. This means that regardless of the presence of meth, the DME will attempt to get to the same AFRs. The issue is that it is is possible to put in so much meth that the DME has pulled all the fuel it can, and the mixtures are still too rich. Further to this, meth is harder to burn than petrol, and therefore it will cause a missfire more easily than petrol at the same AFR. This missfire is the cause of the bog/quench. Even further to that, the DME has long and short term fuel corrections. If you squirt alot of meth so that the DME pulls petrol to get AFR targets, the trims will be effected by this, and it will take some time for them to recover which can give some drivability issues. Techically you are correct that the meth you are using is saving you petrol, but I have not met anyone that would rather fill their 5L meth tank than their 50L fuel tank. Especially considering that you will not use the meth system unless in boost, so it will have negligable effect on petrol usage, but may mean you have to fill up the meth twice as often.

Adrian

Legit question here...

What size nozzles are you talking about where it starts to bog?
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      08-24-2011, 03:09 AM   #171
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Legit question here...

What size nozzles are you talking about where it starts to bog?
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      08-24-2011, 04:55 AM   #172
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Forgive me if I am not jumping at the bit to answer you. You take every opportunity to make life hard for me, and now you want to be involved in a discussion with me. I am concerned that anything I say may be used against me.

The car has twin CM10s. As I previously stated, it is more than most people use, so not a concern for most people. But I can assure you that when running 18-20psi with big power, the engine loves that extra meth flow up top, but hates it down low. I highly recommend a system that can control meth flow with RPM if going for big nozzles/power. The Vishnu PWM Meth is the best on the market for doing this.
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      08-24-2011, 05:38 PM   #173
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Forgive me if I am not jumping at the bit to answer you. You take every opportunity to make life hard for me, and now you want to be involved in a discussion with me. I am concerned that anything I say may be used against me.
Again, I said I will not enter into anything like that with you again. Members can make their own judgements. Call it a ceasefire if you will.


Quote:
The car has twin CM10s. As I previously stated, it is more than most people use, so not a concern for most people. But I can assure you that when running 18-20psi with big power, the engine loves that extra meth flow up top, but hates it down low. I highly recommend a system that can control meth flow with RPM if going for big nozzles/power. The Vishnu PWM Meth is the best on the market for doing this.
Thanks for that, definitely something that most of us will never be doing...

But I only asked for what kinds of nozzles are causing the bog down low, I never asked which system is best... I am not getting into these arguments again, but just to point it out, that is why I continued to 'pick' on you because of unnecessary sprukes like this...
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      08-24-2011, 05:48 PM   #174
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Do you think I would have added on that last sentence to anyone but you... lets just say I am testing the water. Part of the reason I am here is to spruke, and I don't have to answer to you to do that. Aside from that, what I said is true. The Aquamist/Vishnu high speed pulsed PWM meth injection system is unquestionably better than anything else available, and anyone who knows about this sort of thing and does not have a bias would agree. I am trying to inform the market of the benefits. The market does not learn about the product telepathically.
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      08-24-2011, 06:06 PM   #175
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I'm putting it out there that it's really hard for me to not get into this!

I wrote out three comments before deciding to suck it up and let it go... wow... feels good!
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      08-24-2011, 06:08 PM   #176
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See I am helping your inner well being... you should be thanking me.
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