Please settle a clutch argument...

[mackeroni]

In 2004, I sold my 1992 Mazda MX-3 with over 205,000 miles on the original clutch and TO bearing.

1. I nearly always sit at lights in gear with the clutch disengaged.

2. I NEVER rock the car back and forth or hold the car in position by partially engaging the clutch. What kind of idiot would do this and not understand the damage it does? This should be completely intuitive.

By the way, last year I ran into the guy who bought my MX3 and he claimed he was over 260,000 on my original clutch and TO bearing.

[135iMike]

Originally Posted by mackeroni

In 2004, I sold my 1992 Mazda MX-3 with over 205,000 miles on the original clutch and TO bearing.

1. I nearly always sit at lights in gear with the clutch disengaged.

2. I NEVER rock the car back and forth or hold the car in position by partially engaging the clutch. What kind of idiot would do this and not understand the damage it does? This should be completely intuitive.

By the way, last year I ran into the guy who bought my MX3 and he claimed he was over 260,000 on my original clutch and TO bearing.

It's a light car.. if he/you did a lot of highway and was a good driver it's very possible.

[KingOfJericho]

The clutch on my father's 1998 4Runner lasted well into the 200ks.

[foghat]

Originally Posted by litebulb

I was always taught it was more a safety concern. If I was to get rear-ended and lost control having the transmission in 1st would present more issues.

Interesting. How so?

I was taught it was safer to have in gear if rear ended. Chances are after getting rear ended your foot comes off the clutch and prevents you from being pushed into the intersection or the guy in front of you (depending how close you are to him, of course).

[jkoral]

Originally Posted by foghat

Interesting. How so?

I was taught it was safer to have in gear if rear ended. Chances are after getting rear ended your foot comes off the clutch and prevents you from being pushed into the intersection or the guy in front of you (depending how close you are to him, of course).

I was wondering as well. I reasoned that sitting at a light with clutch in and first gear selected, you get rear ended, foot comes off clutch/brake and you could accidentally mash the accelerator in the commotion. You get hit and then rocket off when you hit the gas (hitting pedestrian for example).

I don't know how probable that is. It was the only scenario I could think of.

[foghat]

Originally Posted by jkoral

I was wondering as well. I reasoned that sitting at a light with clutch in and first gear selected, you get rear ended, foot comes off clutch/brake and you could accidentally mash the accelerator in the commotion. You get hit and then rocket off when you hit the gas (hitting pedestrian for example).

I don't know how probable that is. It was the only scenario I could think of.

Ya, that would have to be a perfect storm - it would have to be like planning on taking off normally. As if you stall things out first, doesn't matter if you hit the gas after. Since a hit from behind cause your body to move backward, not sure how likely it would be to hit the gas

[Indo Rider]

I had no idea anyone sits at a light in gear with clutch disengaged. Unless you're about to drag race on the green light it sounds absolutely ridiculous to me. Not trying to be a dick, but:

1) I don't put much stake in the "safer if you're rear ended" argument. I mean, maybe that could be what saves you, but the chance of that making the difference seems pretty remote to me.
2) You are definitely not appreciably reducing wear on the clutch friction surfaces. Wear mostly occurs with slippage associated with engagement and disengagement (shifting) and under higher loads. In neutral at low rpms the wear on the clutch friction surfaces is next to nil.
3) Sitting for minutes with the clutch disengaged, however, could very well cause excessive wear of the throwout bearing. With the clutch disengaged there's more force on the throwout bearing resulting in more friction and more heat, which could cause the grease in the bearing to boil and result in premature failure.
4) Doesn't your leg get tired?
5) What do you think neutral is for? I mean, sounds like you guys don't even need it if you keep the pedal pressed in all the time... lol.

Anyway, I know this come across like I'm a punk, but honestly all I can think is WTF... I'm all like, "Who is your daddy and what does he do"? to give you such advise...

[litebulb]

Just my opinion. When I'm in my car at a light if I know I'm going to be at a stop for more then 1 minutes, it's in neutral and foot is on the brake. This decision has nothing to do with wear and tear. I'm reasoning that if I was to be rear-ended, say my car is in gear, at least I won't have my clutch engaged in the confusion and my car going into the car in front of me or into a intersection cause more trouble. However on a bike and I ride as well at a stop I'm in gear ready to move out of the way or dump the bike and get out of the way or an accident. Difference is in a car your surrounded by metal and on a bike you surround the metal.

[mackeroni]

Originally Posted by Indo Rider

I had no idea anyone sits at a light in gear with clutch disengaged. Unless you're about to drag race on the green light it sounds absolutely ridiculous to me. Not trying to be a dick, but:

1) I don't put much stake in the "safer if you're rear ended" argument. I mean, maybe that could be what saves you, but the chance of that making the difference seems pretty remote to me.
2) You are definitely not appreciably reducing wear on the clutch friction surfaces. Wear mostly occurs with slippage associated with engagement and disengagement (shifting) and under higher loads. In neutral at low rpms the wear on the clutch friction surfaces is next to nil.
3) Sitting for minutes with the clutch disengaged, however, could very well cause excessive wear of the throwout bearing. With the clutch disengaged there's more force on the throwout bearing resulting in more friction and more heat, which could cause the grease in the bearing to boil and result in premature failure.
4) Doesn't your leg get tired?
5) What do you think neutral is for? I mean, sounds like you guys don't even need it if you keep the pedal pressed in all the time... lol.

Anyway, I know this come across like I'm a punk, but honestly all I can think is WTF... I'm all like, "Who is your daddy and what does he do"? to give you such advise...

I found several driver training examples online. They all say something like this...

Slowing and stopping. Take the pressure off your right foot, which is on the accelerator, when you want to reduce speed and press down on the clutch to downshift into a lesser gear until you've reached the second gear. Then apply the foot brakes while slowly releasing the clutch pedal. When stopping, you should press down the clutch and move into first gear just before stopping fully.

Notice that it does not say move into neutral just before stopping fully.

And no, my leg does not get tired holding in the clutch. I have never given that a thought. Maybe you need to work on your legs a bit, mate.

Just a friendly retort. I guess we are all entitled to our opinions.

[Vigilante375]

Like I said, in WA it's a law that you must have your car in gear. Even though I've never heard of anyone getting a ticket for it but it's a safety thing.

Imagine this, 1st car at a red light waiting with your car in neutral and you're not paying attention to what's going on behind you. Then you glance in your side view mirror only to see a vehicle fast approaching so you go to put the car in 1st and soon as you start to move out of the way you're rear ended. But you had kept it in 1st all you who have needed to do was let out the clutch, apply some gas and move out of the way. Trust me, it can and will happen. It might not be a stop light but it could be while sitting in traffic or somewhere else.

My buddy told me a story about him getting his brand new '05 STi and after a few days of driving around he was stuck in traffic trying to merge off the Interstate onto another connecting highway. He always leave it in gear and it just so happen that day a car wasn't paying attention to the slowing down / stopped traffic. He saw this car coming and moved out of the way resulting in the car in front of him taking the collision from that idiot. If he had left it in neutral he would have maybe made but more than likely had his new vehicle totaled.

I do both but if I'm 1st at the light and the person behind me is stopped then I will put it in neutral. If I'm in traffic, I'll suck it up and leave the car in gear. Some thing's will happen to you but sometime's you can go your whole life and not be in an accident. I've been in 3 so far and don't want to be in anymore. As the last one could have been avoided if I had left the car in 1st because as soon as I released the clutch I was rear ended.

[JimD]

The safety argument is bogus. I can be in first gear plenty fast enough to move the car if I need to. I've had one wreck in the last 30 years and it was a young girl turning left in front of my SUV. I couldn't stop, it had rained, and her Volvo did not like the impact of my SUV - which I drove off.

The key to avoiding somebody hitting you when you're stopped is to see it coming and to have somewhere to go. It is not having your car in gear. That takes so little time it will make no difference.

If you want to sit at lights with the clutch depressed go ahead. I hope your throw-out bearing holds up but if it doesn't you will spend a pretty significant amount of money for the bad habit. Driving cars and avoiding accidents is mostly developing good habits. Testing the braking before you get to the stopping point, for instance. Adjusting your mirrors to eliminate blind spots. Using your mirrors, both of the, every time, before lane changing. Using neutral is just a good habit you should develop. Some cars may not care if you use neutral. But if you later find one that does, you will have an expensive repair bill for your bad habit.

Jim

[brusk]

arguments can be made for and against neutral vs gear for safety. And for the long term it is better to put it in neutral for the obvious reason stated of the trow out bearing but nobody is thinking about the pressure being put on the crank and thrust bearings. But in the big picture of things the throwout bearing is not something you typically need to worry about and unless your driving a 1st gen DSM 2.0 Turbo the bearings isn't something you typically worry about either. Enjoy driving the car in how you think is safe and comfortable for you and if you were going to be concerned with something I would be concerned more with should I downshift to slow down at a light and put excess wear on my synchros or should I put it in neutral.

[Lucky1]

If coming to a light at a good speed I gear down to 3rd and apply a little braking, as soon as I'm either close to the car in front of me or around 1,000rpm I clutch in and put it to neutral, clutch depressed, right foot holding the brake. If I'm going slower I might even gear down to 2nd as I approach the light. I want to be in gear at all times when the car is moving so I have completely control for safety issues or otherwise. This is true regardless of whether I'm slowing down for a light, a corner, an offramp. My opinion is if the car is in motion it should be in gear.

When you are stopped and are the first car at the lights (no cars between you and the intersection) I have always read that you should be in neutral, clutch out and foot on the brake. If you are in 1st gear and you are rear ended you might be launched further into the intersection and into the opposite oncoming traffic. If the car is in motion because of the collision and you are in first gear the clutch will engage and either buck forward and stall (NOT GOOD in an intersection!) or actually buck forward into the intersection and remain in gear (not much better really!!). I don't know for sure that holding the brakes by themselves in neutral will help cut the distance that you are thrown into the intersection but I'm willing to take that chance.

When you are stopped at a light and surrounded by cars and have no means of moving left or right or forward I don't see the benefit of being in gear clutch depressed (you have nowhere to go?).

All other times when stopped I still leave it in neutral and foot on the brake. By the time I realize someone's out of control there's probably nothing I can do. I *do* have a funny (maybe bad) habit of immediately but temporarily putting the car in 1st when I first stop at a light and checking around to see if there are other cars behind me that aren't going to stop. When I'm satisfied its safe and that I'm not moving for a while I take it out of gear and leave it in neutral, clutch depressed and right foot on the brake. This is true whether I'm on a flat road or on a hill for longer than 3-5 seconds anyway.

If you are trying to get away from the cops you want to be in gear all the time though and stopping at red lights is optional. Never put it in neutral in this case.

[coda72]

Well, I don't know what you're supposed to do, but at a light I generally have my foot off the clutch and the car in neutral. Always have the right foot on the brake of course. If I know it's a short light, I sometimes leave my car in gear.