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      06-17-2013, 12:11 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by TheSt|G
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There is a reason NA engines are found in all the great driver's cars like the M3, GT3, S2000, NSX, and so on.
All old cars, stop living in the past.




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      06-17-2013, 02:15 PM   #200
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Right, but have you taken a look behind your dealerships service center? We didn't buy BMWs for reliability. We would all be owning Camrys if that were the case.
I think if you go to any dealer's service department you will find vehicles being serviced. No surprise there.

And I don't think it's unreasonable to have an expectation of reliability when spending this much on an automobile. If I spent $50k on a 135i, I'd be pretty upset if it had powertrain issues within the first couple of years of ownership.

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Originally Posted by vertebra View Post
I keep hearing 1 owners say that they want a mechanical LSD, one more part to break. I bet most owners who quote the "one more part to break" would be lining up to have one installed if it were more affordable and offered as an option from BMW.
A mechanical LSD would require periodic maintenance, so there's a bit of extra cost there, but it would be unlikely to fail, I think. A turbo, on the other hand, is practically guaranteed to fail during the vehicle's useful service life. And they're not cheap to replace. I'm not sure why you seem to regard this as some sort of judgemental 135i bashing. It's just the simple truth. I have never made any statement about one car or engine being "better" than the other, just that they are "different."
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      06-17-2013, 02:25 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob View Post
I think if you go to any dealer's service department you will find vehicles being serviced. No surprise there.

And I don't think it's unreasonable to have an expectation of reliability when spending this much on an automobile. If I spent $50k on a 135i, I'd be pretty upset if it had powertrain issues within the first couple of years of ownership.



A mechanical LSD would require periodic maintenance, so there's a bit of extra cost there, but it would be unlikely to fail, I think. A turbo, on the other hand, is practically guaranteed to fail during the vehicle's useful service life. And they're not cheap to replace. I'm not sure why you seem to regard this as some sort of judgemental 135i bashing. It's just the simple truth. I have never made any statement about one car or engine being "better" than the other, just that they are "different."
Having had 3 Audi and 1 VW turbos I am happy to report zero failures. I have heard of wastegate problems for the 1 and since it is attached to the turbo it is associated with it.
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      06-17-2013, 03:22 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by vertebra View Post
Having had 3 Audi and 1 VW turbos I am happy to report zero failures. I have heard of wastegate problems for the 1 and since it is attached to the turbo it is associated with it.
Are you the type to keep a car for 10-ish years or not? Because a lot of the fretting about reliability is really mostly applicable to long-term owners.

Incidentally, I seem to recall several threads with turbos being replaced (the entire unit) around 80k miles. Could be a fluke, or could be a developing pattern.
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      06-17-2013, 04:09 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob View Post
Are you the type to keep a car for 10-ish years or not? Because a lot of the fretting about reliability is really mostly applicable to long-term owners.

Incidentally, I seem to recall several threads with turbos being replaced (the entire unit) around 80k miles. Could be a fluke, or could be a developing pattern.
You aren't off base. I've posted it before but my friend's wife's 335i has had nearly every component of the N54 replaced at least once, and in the case of the HPFP and injectors, many more times. I can repost the service history if needed.
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      06-17-2013, 04:20 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSt|G
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob

Are you the type to keep a car for 10-ish years or not? Because a lot of the fretting about reliability is really mostly applicable to long-term owners.

Incidentally, I seem to recall several threads with turbos being replaced (the entire unit) around 80k miles. Could be a fluke, or could be a developing pattern.

You aren't off base. I've posted it before but my friend's wife's 335i has had nearly every component of the N54 replaced at least once, and in the case of the HPFP and injectors, many more times. I can repost the service history if needed.
No need to repost the same service history from your friend's wife's car yet again. It sounds like it was a lemon. 1 car does not represent the reliability of a whole series of cars.




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      06-17-2013, 04:24 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vertebra View Post
All old cars, stop living in the past.
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Originally Posted by vertebra View Post
Having had 3 Audi and 1 VW turbos I am happy to report zero failures. I have heard of wastegate problems for the 1 and since it is attached to the turbo it is associated with it.
Agree to disagree? Turning into Hatfields and McCoys out here.

I suppose you could call me 'old fashioned' at the age of 25, but my side of the coin tells a different story.

I've had 3 Audi's too. Sister currently drives a GTi and my mom bumbles around town in an e93 335i. You're actually talking to someone who used to idolize turbo engines. Believe me, I get it. Easy tune-ability, addicting amounts of torque, and a technology right for tomorrow. I just never had your luck, and neither has the rest of my family.

Power loss, heat soak, stuttering, surging, ticking noises, bad injectors, oil/carbon build up, and a blown turbo to name a few.
Understand that, in my personal experience, the only cars we've ever had major problems with were turbocharged. If it were a comparison of my driving style and maintenance upkeep, I also have an e46 with 171k miles that won't even hiccup. I just stick to what I know, guys.

And I can't help but argue the more I drive N/A the more I enjoy it. I'm not apologetic about that too.

I suppose just got tired of turbocharged cars.
...hence why I bought a 128i (yay this thread is back on topic!).

To the trolls, enjoy.
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      06-18-2013, 09:07 AM   #206
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135:
More power/torque

128:
more linear power delivery
no lag
more reliable
significantly lighter (better handling)

It's not even close-- I have exactly zero desire for a 135i, but the 128i is an awesome little car.

Sadly, the 128i is the last car BMW makes that I would enjoy owning. Sad transition from 11 years ago, when I wanted one of everything they made.
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      06-18-2013, 09:30 AM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vertebra View Post
No need to repost the same service history from your friend's wife's car yet again. It sounds like it was a lemon. 1 car does not represent the reliability of a whole series of cars.
No but the multiple lawsuits/class action lawsuits against BMW for that engine do. Or it's ability to make a number of 10 worst engine lists.

My buddy is hardly alone.
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      06-18-2013, 12:34 PM   #208
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Sadly, the 128i is the last car BMW makes that I would enjoy owning. Sad transition from 11 years ago, when I wanted one of everything they made.
I would reluctantly agree.
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      06-18-2013, 12:59 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
135:
More power/torque

128:
more linear power delivery
no lag
more reliable
significantly lighter (better handling)

It's not even close-- I have exactly zero desire for a 135i, but the 128i is an awesome little car.

Sadly, the 128i is the last car BMW makes that I would enjoy owning. Sad transition from 11 years ago, when I wanted one of everything they made.
Different strokes for different folks. I finally got a chance to drive a 128i with manual last week. Driving up to my buddies practice in Cartersville for lunch I hit no traffic like I had anticipated. I had 30 minutes to kill so I was driving around looking for some pawn shops and saw a 128i on the lot of a used car dealership. Manual and M-Sport. Took it for a test drive. No thank you. That is all I have to say about that.
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      06-18-2013, 01:03 PM   #210
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      06-18-2013, 02:06 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSt|G View Post
So that's why the N54 weighs more than the S54, but has less power?
Thats not true at all.

S54 217 kg

N54 195 kg

N52 161 kg

S65 202 kg

Last edited by BrokenVert; 06-18-2013 at 02:42 PM.. Reason: added S65
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      06-18-2013, 02:45 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by BrokenVert View Post
Thats not true at all.

S54 217 kg

N54 195 kg

N52 161 kg

S65 202 kg
That's the engine, but not counting the turbo plumbing/turbos. Seeing as the N54 wouldn't make its power without, it is a bit disingenuous to the discussion.
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      06-18-2013, 03:09 PM   #213
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Per BMW, 6spd 128i is 3208lbs with a 50.5/49.5 % weight distribution
And a 6spd 135i is 3373lbs distributed 51.6/48.4%

5.2% weight difference, shifted 1.1% further forward. Yes it's different, but is it really a leading reason to choose one car over the other? Perhaps it is. Perhaps it's not nearly as much as some people think.
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      06-18-2013, 03:43 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSt|G View Post
That's the engine, but not counting the turbo plumbing/turbos. Seeing as the N54 wouldn't make its power without, it is a bit disingenuous to the discussion.
Do you have real numbers on the TD-3's weight or are you guessing? Because without real numbers, I cant take you seriously.


Also, lets be genuine. The N54 is factory tuned to make 330ish bhp. The S54 in its most powerful street application was 340ish hp. Thats a wash in terms of power and it makes no difference.


So for all intents and purposes they make the same power.



I also recall Scott saying that BMW toyed with the idea of putting an S54 in the 1M, but decided that the S54 was too heavy for the car, and disrupted the weight distribution, in turn messing with handling.
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      06-18-2013, 04:09 PM   #215
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The N52 actually weights 148 kg* = 326 lb,

If the N54 weights complete at 195 kg = 430 lb,

That's close to a 100 lb difference over the front axel alone - are we really being that naive about that?
That's a lot of weight taken off a pivotal point in the car.
I could never imagine opening my engine bay, and squeezing the weight of half a full sized adult in there.


*I'll source Ward's over your wikipedia entries any day:
"The all-aluminum N20 I-4 is about 22 lbs. (10 kg) lighter than the N52. Overall, the engine weighs 304 lbs." (138 kg).

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      06-18-2013, 04:11 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenVert View Post
Do you have real numbers on the TD-3's weight or are you guessing? Because without real numbers, I cant take you seriously.
Not guessing, seen it around before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenVert View Post
Also, lets be genuine. The N54 is factory tuned to make 330ish bhp. The S54 in its most powerful street application was 340ish hp. Thats a wash in terms of power and it makes no difference.

So for all intents and purposes they make the same power.
Highest spec listed N54 power is 300hp. Highest spec listed S54 power is 355-360hp. 355 is often times greater than 300.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenVert View Post
I also recall Scott saying that BMW toyed with the idea of putting an S54 in the 1M, but decided that the S54 was too heavy for the car, and disrupted the weight distribution, in turn messing with handling.
S54 was tabled because it no longer meets emissions. There was a decent sourced Bimmer Mag article on it. I definitely would have snagged one if it had been the case.

Or they could have used the S65, but then there would be no reason to buy the E92 M3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daft Auto View Post
The N52 actually weights 148 kg = 326 lb,

If the N54 weights complete at 195 kg = 430 lb,

That's close to a 100 lb difference over the front axel alone - are we really being that naive about it? That's a lot of weight taken off a pivotal point in the car.

I could never imagine opening my engine bay, and squeezing the weight of half a full sized adult in there.
Spot on.
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      06-19-2013, 09:19 AM   #217
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The 128i is clearly the better BMW. I don't know what all the fuss is about.
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      06-19-2013, 11:36 AM   #218
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Man, these 135i guys really can't stand it when the help gets all uppity and starts appreciating their little old 128i's.
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      06-19-2013, 11:47 AM   #219
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Man, these 135i guys really can't stand it when the help gets all uppity and starts appreciating their little old 128i's.
Bob, don't genericize them, that's going too far. I only count two, one of which, I am not sure if is an owner of either car.
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      06-19-2013, 12:15 PM   #220
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You guys are unreal. The last 5 posts are from 128i owners. I think you guys shoud start a thread "Why I Chose a 128i vs a 1M". You can tell them how much more reliable your car is. How you can feel the difference in engine weight. How you a more linear throttle. How your car is better balanced. That would be just a little more funny than this comparison.
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