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      06-15-2013, 03:23 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by vertebra View Post
Some people just don't like change. I remember when people were complaining about all the manufacturers moving away from carborated engines to fuel injection. All the manufacturers see the writing on the wall. Forced induction is the future. Smaller, lighter, more efficient, less emmissions and better performance per liter.
I agree that FI is the future. Just about every manufacturer is going to it, in some cases for every car that they sell.

I personally don't have anything against turbos in theory, although I do worry about reliability, extra complexity, and maintenance costs down the line (used to own a Corrado G60, and had to rebuild the supercharger - not apples to apples, to be sure, but has made me a bit leery of FI in general).

But to say that there is no perceivable difference between NA & FI? Well, that's just crazy.
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      06-15-2013, 03:36 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob View Post
I agree that FI is the future. Just about every manufacturer is going to it, in some cases for every car that they sell.

I personally don't have anything against turbos in theory, although I do worry about reliability, extra complexity, and maintenance costs down the line (used to own a Corrado G60, and had to rebuild the supercharger - not apples to apples, to be sure, but has made me a bit leery of FI in general).

But to say that there is no perceivable difference between NA & FI? Well, that's just crazy.
First, coming from a Scirocco...you cannot compare a 20 yo Corrado. VW was not exactly known for their reliability. Second, we are talking about forced induction from this decade. Lag is very limited compared to cars of yesteryear.
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      06-15-2013, 04:32 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by vertebra View Post
First, coming from a Scirocco...you cannot compare a 20 yo Corrado. VW was not exactly known for their reliability. Second, we are talking about forced induction from this decade. Lag is very limited compared to cars of yesteryear.
Sure, a VW supercharger circa 1991 is not comparable to BMW's present-day turbos. But there are enough examples on these forums alone of people having issues with their turbos to spook me a little. Admittedly, reliability issues get blown out of proportion on car forums, but it's a plain fact that more moving parts will require more upkeep in the long run.
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      06-15-2013, 05:24 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob
Quote:

Originally Posted by vertebra

First, coming from a Scirocco...you cannot compare a 20 yo Corrado. VW was not exactly known for their reliability. Second, we are talking about forced induction from this decade. Lag is very limited compared to cars of yesteryear.

Sure, a VW supercharger circa 1991 is not comparable to BMW's present-day turbos. But there are enough examples on these forums alone of people having issues with their turbos to spook me a little. Admittedly, reliability issues get blown out of proportion on car forums, but it's a plain fact that more moving parts will require more upkeep in the long run.
Right, but have you taken a look behind your dealerships service center? We didn't buy BMWs for reliability. We would all be owning Camrys if that were the case. I keep hearing 1 owners say that they want a mechanical LSD, one more part to break. I bet most owners who quote the "one more part to break" would be lining up to have one installed if it were more affordable and offered as an option from BMW.




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      06-15-2013, 06:59 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by vertebra View Post
Right, but have you taken a look behind your dealerships service center? We didn't buy BMWs for reliability. We would all be owning Camrys if that were the case. I keep hearing 1 owners say that they want a mechanical LSD, one more part to break. I bet most owners who quote the "one more part to break" would be lining up to have one installed if it were more affordable and offered as an option from BMW.
Which reminds me, i need to change the 'life time' fill in my differential.

Are you suggesting those of us who question the long term cost maintaining a forced induction system are being inconsistent if we wanted a mechanical LSD? Growing up, my dad was proud that our 81 chevy passenger van had a mechanical LSD which never broke in the 150k miles we had it.

It's really crime an mechanical LSD isn't a option for non-M 1,3 series cars.
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      06-15-2013, 07:36 PM   #182
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Which reminds me, i need to change the 'life time' fill in my differential.

Are you suggesting those of us who question the long term cost maintaining a forced induction system are being inconsistent if we wanted a mechanical LSD? Growing up, my dad was proud that our 81 chevy passenger van had a mechanical LSD which never broke in the 150k miles we had it.

It's really crime an mechanical LSD isn't a option for non-M 1,3 series cars.
Totally agree. That's one of the two gripes of mine (the other one is the price). Does not make any sense for a $30K - $40K plus car not to have an LSD at least as an option. Even torsen or viscous would do. I have stuck on a loose surface once in my M45 (another car surprisingly does not have an LSD). It was embarrassing
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      06-16-2013, 02:14 AM   #183
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Manbearpig seriously.. Ur a griefer if you think that someone driving the same engine as you, but with a turbo, is any moAr pure..!!

Not hating, just curios how much you driven them before being serious?



Edit:
I have said nothing about perception, or inability to decipher the difference & nuances/attinuations.. only that they make no difference.

Most cling to "NA" for the sake of Nostalgia... thus my comments in Post #176
Wow. This post is completely incoherent. Are you drunk right now?
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      06-16-2013, 02:30 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formula M View Post
Ur a griefer if you think that someone driving the same engine as you, but with a turbo, is any moAr pure..!!

Not hating, just curios how much you driven them before being serious?
Quote:
Originally Posted by formula M View Post
Why even make the designation between the two (turbo, or NA). They both have a smooth inline-6.
And you're ignorant to think the N52 is an N54 without turbos. We actually have a more advanced engine.

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      06-16-2013, 03:26 PM   #185
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Ever hear of an N55 ..?
Not sure what you're implying because my statement continues to stand.

"And you're ignorant to think the N52 is an N54 or N55 without turbos. We actually have a more advanced engine."
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      06-16-2013, 05:26 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vertebra View Post
All the manufacturers see the writing on the wall. Forced induction is the future. Smaller, lighter, more efficient, less emmissions and better performance per liter. I for one am very happy that the manufacurers have the technology to make these new engines. .
So why is it again that you are 200lbs(or in your case 500lbs) heavier?
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      06-16-2013, 06:01 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by TheSt|G
Quote:

Originally Posted by vertebra

All the manufacturers see the writing on the wall. Forced induction is the future. Smaller, lighter, more efficient, less emmissions and better performance per liter. I for one am very happy that the manufacurers have the technology to make these new engines. .

So why is it again that you are 200lbs(or in your case 500lbs) heavier?
Let me explain since you like trying to start a argument and then play dumb..at least I think your playing... the turbo engines are smaller and lighter than a NA engine produced with equivalent HP. The last time I checked the N52 does not have the same HP as the N54 or N55, hence the weight difference.




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      06-16-2013, 08:41 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vertebra View Post
Let me explain since you like trying to start a argument and then play dumb..at least I think your playing... the turbo engines are smaller and lighter than a NA engine produced with equivalent HP. The last time I checked the N52 does not have the same HP as the N54 or N55, hence the weight difference.




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I don't think your statement is entirely accurate about engine weight. Turbo engines generally weigh more than NA engines. Now turbo engines mainly give you more HP per liter. So you can decrease displacement and keep the HP the same, and they will give decent MPG when off-boost. But adding the turbo will add weight and complexity to any engine and the equivalent displacement NA should weigh less.
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      06-16-2013, 09:55 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Iron Man
Quote:

Originally Posted by vertebra

Let me explain since you like trying to start a argument and then play dumb..at least I think your playing... the turbo engines are smaller and lighter than a NA engine produced with equivalent HP. The last time I checked the N52 does not have the same HP as the N54 or N55, hence the weight difference.




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I don't think your statement is entirely accurate about engine weight. Turbo engines generally weigh more than NA engines. Now turbo engines mainly give you more HP per liter. So you can decrease displacement and keep the HP the same, and they will give decent MPG when off-boost. But adding the turbo will add weight and complexity to any engine and the equivalent displacement NA should weigh less.
So what your saying is a naturally aspirated engine with 300 hp will weigh less than a turbo engine with 300 hp?




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      06-16-2013, 10:09 PM   #190
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Turbo vs NA engine weight benefits

http://www.ehow.com/list_6020106_benefits-turbo-engines_.html?dmsp=manual

http://www.turbodriven.com/en/turbofacts/advantages.aspx

http://wikicars.org/en/Turbo_Engine
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      06-16-2013, 10:23 PM   #191
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This is ridiculous...I bought a 135, instead of a 128, because I like the extra power. There are many reasons why people by the cars they buy. 128, 135 there both great cars. I get the NA vs FI argument to a point, but to claim one is better than the other seems pointless. Anyone can make a solid argument for either one, but in the end, it comes down to a personally choice based on many different factors. This is what makes blogs so annoying to me...I bet that most people here would not berate each other if it was in person. Chances are, we would be a lot more civil and would respect each others choices, especially since we all drive such similar cars in the end.

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      06-16-2013, 11:03 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Jewbacca View Post
This is ridiculous...I bought a 135, instead of a 128, because I like the extra power. There are many reasons why people by the cars they buy. 128, 135 there both great cars. I get the NA vs FI argument to a point, but to claim one is better than the other seems pointless. Anyone can make a solid argument for either one, but in the end, it comes down to a personally choice based on many different factors. This is what makes blogs so annoying to me...I bet that most people here would not berate each other if it was in person. Chances are, we would be a lot more civil and would respect each others choices, especially since we all drive such similar cars in the end.

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      06-17-2013, 01:42 AM   #193
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This is a thread that is overdue to end....
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      06-17-2013, 04:40 AM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formula M View Post
What nuances have you determined, are different when you drive each... that you prefer & idolize N52, over N54, or N55..?

Can you tell the difference between M54 & N52..?
My other car has an M54. So yes, besides owning both, yes I can tell the difference.

I do not idolize the N52.

Nuances; noun. A subtle difference in or shade of meaning, expression, or sound. There's a lot more than some nuances between the N52 and N54. That was the only point I was trying to make, and unfortunately continue to. And for others reading, making a comparison between the two is only natural given the similarity of the rest of the car. I'm pretty sure this is what this thread is about.

As a reminder:
Quote:
Originally Posted by formula M View Post
Edit:
I have said nothing about perception, or inability to decipher the difference & nuances/attinuations.. only that they make no difference.

Most cling to "NA" for the sake of Nostalgia... thus my comments in Post #176
Yeah, they make no difference. Turbocharged cars and naturally aspirated cars make no difference. Heck they're just appliances if you think about it.

I only stated the N52 is more advanced, and stand by it. I also get that's not the full discussion here. I don't understand why I have to explain that the N52 has an entirely different character from the N54, from power delivery to sound. But those traits are worlds apart and - of course, to each their own.

I've own a few turbocharged cars; B5 S4 stage 3+KO4's, B6 A4, and finally traded in my B7 A4 for my 128i that I continue to find a breath of fresh air. That is why I can tell the difference.

Might I also remind everyone here,
Telsa is laughing at all of us.
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      06-17-2013, 06:59 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by formula M View Post
LOL..

Your are ignorant to think I've made that^ statement... so I continue to laugh at your attempts to put word in my mouth.


What nuances have you determined, are different when you drive each... that you prefer & idolize N52, over N54, or N55..?

Can you tell the difference between M54 & N52..?
I can see where hes coming from with this. The N52 has both double VANOS and Valvetronic, something thing the N54 doesnt but the N55 does.

But the real difference comes in materials. The reason an N52 is so much lighter is because the block is made out different metals than the N54/55. The N52 makes extensive use of magnesium in its design. The entire crankcase is actually made of it.

A lot of engineering effort went I to it. They needed different construction techniques newer designs in order to accommodate the limitations of it.
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      06-17-2013, 09:54 AM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vertebra View Post
Let me explain since you like trying to start a argument and then play dumb..at least I think your playing... the turbo engines are smaller and lighter than a NA engine produced with equivalent HP. The last time I checked the N52 does not have the same HP as the N54 or N55, hence the weight difference.
So that's why the N54 weighs more than the S54, but has less power?
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      06-17-2013, 11:23 AM   #197
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Quote:
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:
I don't care about your opinion, never have. But remember, it is you that clings to, & defends NA...
It's not a purity or "clinging" opinion.

It is voice of someone who prefers a linear powerband, the ability to drive hard without worries of overheating, values a predictable car, enjoys the very sound and essence of a NA engine, and wants something they can enjoy without troubles.

There is a reason NA engines are found in all the great driver's cars like the M3, GT3, S2000, NSX, and so on.
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      06-17-2013, 12:07 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSt|G
Quote:

Originally Posted by vertebra

Let me explain since you like trying to start a argument and then play dumb..at least I think your playing... the turbo engines are smaller and lighter than a NA engine produced with equivalent HP. The last time I checked the N52 does not have the same HP as the N54 or N55, hence the weight difference.

So that's why the N54 weighs more than the S54, but has less power?
The S54 is a 3.2 liter, has 333 hp it weighs 478 lbs and was tuned for the M3.

The N54 is a 3.0 liter, has 335 hp(1M) it weighs 430 lbs and was detuned so it wouldn't compete with the M3's performance.

The S65 would have been a better choice but it still weighs more than the N54.

Do you have a better example? That one didn't work.




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