Small, Black, Strong - Interview with Albert Biermann on the 1M Coupé

[jbtco]

I suspect all to do with emissions and development budgets. Therefore need to use existing engine which reaches C02 targets . Plus chassis, suspension, brakes, steering all have to come from the parts bin. But it is coming from M division so still likely to be a great car.

[Jblack4083]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

Actually the short development time/budget really did not allow for the development of the DCT in this application- no marketing BS there just facts. People don't realize that code must be written for the motor, transmission and DSC in each application. If DCT was to be included it would have needed another 8-12 months to vet the software and all that. This is from engineers and NOT marketing. They can spin it anyway they want but the truth is that there was not enough time or enough funding to make things go faster (more engineers and testing).

They include a DCT in the 335is so that gap thing you talk about as a reason to omit it makes little sense.

Well taken into account the same situation with the 335is, the exclusion of DCT from the 1M once again makes an upselling point for the 335is. From a sales and marketing standpoint, you have to notice that the 335is DCT and the 1M M/T are both doing 0-60 in 5.0 seconds (according to the estimates from the reviews we've seen for the 1M and bmwusa.com for the 335is).

Inclusion of DCT in the 1M would cause the 1M DCT to be faster than the 335is which we would expect from an M car, however it would also end up being cheaper than the 335is DCT which comes in at 52,600. The 1M DCT would probably come in around 46,575.

Why would anyone buy a 335is? They wouldn't. With the exclusion of DCT in the 1M, the only reason to buy a 335is is if you want DCT, and thats the exact situation any marketing department would want to create because now you have a reason to go ahead and spend ~5,000 more on a 335is.

So even excluding the M3 from this discussion, it still makes sense from a marketing standpoint to exclude DCT. And wasn't there a DCT test mule 1M already? I'm not 100% sure about that but i think i read that somewhere.

[crackberry]

Originally Posted by Jblack4083

So many irrational statements in this post. Face it, DCT offers better performance which ultimately means better times. Not including DCT as an option seems mediocre. However it seems they didnt do it to cater to the dinosaur mentality of manual only but moreso not to step on the toes of the manual M3. With a DCT the 1M would probably do about 4.8 where the manual M3 does 4.7 . Including DCT as an option would create a situation where sales of the M3 would be cannibalized, ESPECIALLY enhanced by the fact that the 1M is turbocharged and would be able to be tuned to be faster than even the DCT M3. Why would people spend more on an M3 in that scenario? The exclusion of DCT allows them to create a bigger gap between the two cars and forces customers to really decide between the two cars instead of it being "a no-brainer." they need to maintain an up-selling point for the M3

In a nutshell if you think BMW decided to include only a M/T to "cater to true driving enthusiasts" you are simply a successful product of BMW's marketing department.

100% agree with you. im sure bmw created as much of a gap as they could so that the 1m will not cannibalize m3 sales.

[ARES45]

This DCT thing is getting silly. I can respect a persons decision to drive a 'stick' (notice I didn't say manual because a dct is a manual with an automatic mode), but in doing so you are knowingly accepting the now slowest shifting transmision available. And if you are honest with yourselves you probably aren't that good with the three pedal anyway. A dct is technologically superior.

[Kurt_OH]

Some have suggested DCT is not in this year's model due to insufficient time for software development . . .

BUT, let me ask this: if the motor really is just the 335iS motor, then why do they need a SECOND of development time? Just pull the entire 335iS drivetrain, and drop it in the 1M.

So, either that excuse is wrong, or we WILL have a tweaked motor in 1M.

[ARES45]

I thought the sane thing kurt.

With regard to my earlier post didn't mean to offend anyone, I am a to each his own kind of guy and to say that it is best or more pure of BMW to not offer their fastest transmision is annoying. Jus like the NA engine being a true M or, that's like saying if you want to be a true driver you need a model T. Technology changes and advances at faster and faster rates, enjoy it or keep your car forever.

[E82tt6]

Originally Posted by HERR FSTIR

1500 kg (3300 lbs) and 340 hp puts the power to weight ratio of the 1M in between e46 M3 and e86 Z4M. That is a little bit of a let down.

Nonetheless, the estimated 8:12 ring time is pretty impressive (especially the 27 sec delta from the stock 135).

If it's like other N54 based motors, it'll be tremendously under-rated.

8:12 would put it on par with the Z4 MC around the ring, and given the way the Z4 MC handles, I doubt a car with less straight line acceleration would be able to keep up.

That does make the car sound more promising. Like I said, if it's as much, or more, fun than my Z4 MC I'll buy one. Same or similar N-Ring laptimes is encouraging, and implies exceptional handling unless they were extremely conservative with the 340 number...

[Boosted_N54]

Originally Posted by ARES45

This DCT thing is getting silly. I can respect a persons decision to drive a 'stick' (notice I didn't say manual because a dct is a manual with an automatic mode), but in doing so you are knowingly accepting the now slowest shifting transmision available. And if you are honest with yourselves you probably aren't that good with the three pedal anyway. A dct is technologically superior.

DCT is not a manual. once you have some kind of automatic HELPING you change gears its called AUTO. a manual is a manual meaning you do everything your self. who cares if it only comes in stick cant anybody just drive stick? and stop crying about it. back in the old days m3 were only stick porsches were only stick. and only those who knew how to drive stick would be able to buy 1 NOW every body could buy 1 these cars do to there DCT and technology. and on top of it they say " i drive stick" lol.


DCT= Women
Manual= Men

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Da _Grk_Tuner

DCT is not a manual. once you have some kind of automatic HELPING you change gears its called AUTO. a manual is a manual meaning you do everything your self. who cares if it only comes in stick cant anybody just drive stick? and stop crying about it. back in the old days m3 were only stick porsches were only stick. and only those who knew how to drive stick would be able to buy 1 NOW every body could buy 1 these cars do to there DCT and technology. and on top of it they say " i drive stick" lol.


DCT= Women
Manual= Men

Re: manual vs auto. The issue for me is the lack of a torque converter. Once it has a clutch and a DIRECT connection from engine to wheels, THAT is the quintessential difference between performance of an auto vs manual.

The fact that a computer assists in shifts/clutch is VERY handy in DD mode, faster in track mode, and less involving on the track.

If I was going to buy a 1M, and DCT was available, I'd consider it. It's a great, high tech gizmo that also makes the car faster. I like high tech, and I like faster.

[Boosted_N54]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

Re: manual vs auto. The issue for me is the lack of a torque converter. Once it has a clutch and a DIRECT connection from engine to wheels, THAT is the quintessential difference between performance of an auto vs manual.

The fact that a computer assists in shifts/clutch is VERY handy in DD mode, faster in track mode, and less involving on the track.

If I was going to buy a 1M, and DCT was available, I'd consider it. It's a great, high tech gizmo that also makes the car faster. I like high tech, and I like faster.

its not all about being faster its the FEELING

short sifter and a sport clutch and i will be ok

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by ARES45

This DCT thing is getting silly. I can respect a persons decision to drive a 'stick' (notice I didn't say manual because a dct is a manual with an automatic mode), but in doing so you are knowingly accepting the now slowest shifting transmision available. And if you are honest with yourselves you probably aren't that good with the three pedal anyway. A dct is technologically superior.

The DCT is truly a fast shifting trans that delivers many benefits to any driver.

That said, you're really generalizing with that "...honest with yourselves..." comment. Even BMW rates the DCT as only .1 seconds faster to 60mph. Frankly, I very surprised at that. Given how quick the DCT is, I would have expected at least .2 quicker.
It's only a 1 shift test to 60mph. Given the milliseconds speed, it's odd that it's only 1/10th faster. The better accel test to show the DCT's speed would be the 1/4 mile and/or the run to 100 and 120mph that require more shifts.
So, the actual speed difference is not that insurmountable for a good MT driver going against a DCT.

There very well may be quite a few MT drivers that are not that good at shifting, and judging from some of the threads on here, there are a lot of mediocre MT drivers. But, if some of us are being honest with ourselves, were are pretty darn good with the 3 pedal arrangement, and I know there are a lot of us out there.

The comment that buyers are accepting the slowest shifting trans sounds like trolling.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Da _Grk_Tuner

DCT= Women
Manual= Men

This is nonsense.

The DCT is an "automated manual" type transmission.
It gets a different category due to being completely different from a torque converter automatic. Yes, both of those types do and can operate automatically.

[Jack28]

Originally Posted by Park2670

This is going to be so great. Way to go BMW!

[sparoz]

Originally Posted by kmarei

BMW 1M=135is
Talk about disappointment
I know this will piss off a lot of people
But it seems to me the 1M is a tester for the next, new shape, 1M which will be a proper M
Shame cuz I was seriously considering selling my M3 to get this
But not with 340hp, or basically a rehashed 335is engine

I don't agree that it is an 'is' simply because it has a N54 engine. If the stories are true with the upgraded turbos and not letting out steam towards the 7k rpm, it would be a M engine IMO. The rest of the car alone is worthy of a ///M alone. Even if they used a straight transplant from an 'is' N54, with everything that they have done to the car, it would be at least a 135M.

Originally Posted by jraymond

I would gamble on no fix given limited production run. They will be pissing off people that will buy a bmw no matter what IMO.

+1, and I think the 2700 figure is how many they think they will sell or how many they can make for the time frame. I am sure if there are buyers, they will continue production until the new 1M (F22) arrives.

[Jblack4083]

Originally Posted by Da _Grk_Tuner

DCT is not a manual. once you have some kind of automatic HELPING you change gears its called AUTO. a manual is a manual meaning you do everything your self. who cares if it only comes in stick cant anybody just drive stick? and stop crying about it. back in the old days m3 were only stick porsches were only stick. and only those who knew how to drive stick would be able to buy 1 NOW every body could buy 1 these cars do to there DCT and technology. and on top of it they say " i drive stick" lol.


DCT= Women
Manual= Men

Ignorance at its finest.

So the car being slower and not having the latest technology is justified if it makes the driver looks like more of a man than he really is? DCT is faster, and i'm not sure about you but my manhood has already been confirmed... These are performance cars. They should be offered as fast as possible

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Jblack4083

Ignorance at its finest.

So the car being slower and not having the latest technology is justified if it makes the driver looks like more of a man than he really is? DCT is faster, and i'm not sure about you but my manhood has already been confirmed... These are performance cars. They should be offered as fast as possible

It would certainly be chuckle-inducing if it came out ONLY DCT.



Wouldn't affect my purchase decision though. If I can get one, Euro Del, for around $50k, I'm doing it.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

It would certainly be chuckle-inducing if it came out ONLY DCT.



Wouldn't affect my purchase decision though. If I can get one, Euro Del, for around $50k, I'm doing it.

Unlikely. M cars come out of a dealer's allocation during their initial run, and dealer's don't like to lose that profit by letting the car go through European Delivery. That logic will be especially true if the car is limited to 2700 worldwide and 500 in the US as has been reported.

Otherwise I think we'd all be doing a European Delivery 1M

- esquire

[jbtco]

Manufacturers like DCT or similar type boxes (twin clutch or hydraulic manuals) because they can use the auto mode (setting to change up at relatively low revs) to look good in emissions tests particularly important with European car taxation regimes.

Having had M3s and audis with manual, SMG and DCT I would say that the SMG / DCT has advantages on the track but I personally prefer manual on the road (I live in a rural area so don't do much city traffic or motorway driving).

I suspect that the Z4 DCT won't physically fit in the S1MC and there is not the time or budget to do anything about that. With a short production run the emissions will not have a significant impact on the company's need to bring down overall average emissions.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by esquire

Unlikely. M cars come out of a dealer's allocation during their initial run, and dealer's don't like to lose that profit by letting the car go through European Delivery. That logic will be especially true if the car is limited to 2700 worldwide and 500 in the US as has been reported.

Otherwise I think we'd all be doing a European Delivery 1M

- esquire

Both dealers I've spoken to did mention the car coming out of their allocation, but said that didn't matter for DOING ED, just that price wouldn't be as close to invoice.

Not sure why you'd suggest that it would cause the dealer to "lose all that profit"?

[Future M1 owner]

We here on the forum are never too mature to restart the whole dct/mt argument, for the 78th time, and with EXACTLY the same arguments as in the previous 77 discussions. Like a goldfish in bowl......

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by ARES45

A dct is technologically superior.

Yes, but that will also make it more complicated and expensive to maintain in the long run. However, that won't be a concern to those who replace their cars every few years though.

[ARES45]

Originally Posted by RPM90

The DCT is truly a fast shifting trans that delivers many benefits to any driver.

That said, you're really generalizing with that "...honest with yourselves..." comment. Even BMW rates the DCT as only .1 seconds faster to 60mph. Frankly, I very surprised at that. Given how quick the DCT is, I would have expected at least .2 quicker.
It's only a 1 shift test to 60mph. Given the milliseconds speed, it's odd that it's only 1/10th faster. The better accel test to show the DCT's speed would be the 1/4 mile and/or the run to 100 and 120mph that require more shifts.
So, the actual speed difference is not that insurmountable for a good MT driver going against a DCT.

There very well may be quite a few MT drivers that are not that good at shifting, and judging from some of the threads on here, there are a lot of mediocre MT drivers. But, if some of us are being honest with ourselves, were are pretty darn good with the 3 pedal arrangement, and I know there are a lot of us out there.

The comment that buyers are accepting the slowest shifting trans sounds like trolling.

So a guy can make a comment about how men drive manuals, and women drive dct, which is extremely offensive and sexist not to mention irrational, but I am the troll for stating a simple fact.

A three pedal is the slowest shifting and will produce a slower vehicle than a DCT, that is a fact. I truly do get the 'feel' argument, but I don't like that BMW is further watering down the performance of the 1M by going stick only. I am not trying to insult those who choose to have a gated gearbox, I am just saying I want the fastest 1M BMW can realistically build and i think they could have put a DCT on realistically. Maybe they will change there mind and add DCT, at which point I will consider it.

The difference in speed is this, a DCT driver will shift perfectly more often than a manual driver and the shift when chosen will ocur faster. Also the numbers BMW posts mean absolutely nothing to me because in countless tests the 08 135i auto has had faster 0-60 times than the manual by .1-.3 seconds and it was listed on the BMW website as .2 seconds slower. BMW lies to you people about times to suit there marketing objectives. This time differential may not mean anything to some, but when you start getting to the sub 5 sec 0-60 times tenths matter.

P.S. There is a great difference between a crappy auto, a great auto, and a DCT. If the CTS-V came with a DCT or even a decent auto I would be on there boards right now.