Mishimoto Intercooler?

[Turbmando]

I have been looking for an intercooler that utilizes the stock hoses, which led me to Wagner's stepped intercooler. After doing some research I found the link below that shows a large pressure drop in the Wagner intercooler. Yes, I know it is competitor data...but it is still data.

Intercooler Comparison Test:
http://mosselmanturbo.com/uploads/me..._Mosselman.pdf

Then today I found Mishimoto's intercooler, but it is too new to have any quality reviews or long term use data. They also have some suspicious development graphs, where their inlet temps are much lower than the stock intercooler. This makes their reduced outlet temps seem underwhelming. Mosselman's comparison seems to have an explanation for inlet temp differences, but it doesn't seem to relate to the Mishimoto since it's pressure drop is very similar to stock.

Mishimoto Intercooler Product Info:
http://www.mishimoto.com/bmw-335i-07...tercooler.html

Development Data:
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-...ringreport.pdf

What does everyone think? Does anyone have any past experience with Mishimoto and their quality?

[GeeRam]

If you have a N55, then the Forge Motorsport intercooler has end fittings that retain the OEM hoses.

I have the Forge intercooler on my 135, here it is next the OEM i/c.

[Turbmando]

Wow, didn't realize. I will have to look into it. Thanks

[Freon]

Originally Posted by Turbmando

Intercooler Comparison Test:
http://mosselmanturbo.com/uploads/me..._Mosselman.pdf

I give them props for actually giving their test procedure. I can't take others very seriously when they don't include this.

Yeah, that Wagner looks horrible... Internal turbolators too dense?

CP-E also put out a great white paper on their design vs. stock. Can't find the link right now, but worth the read.

Unfortunately good testing info like that is VERY sparse in general in the tuning industry.

[Dackelone]

Just FIY... Wagner makes two FMIC version. Well really four. The two types are Evo-1 and Evo-II. The Evo-II requires a very slight cut to one edge of the inner front bumper.

Then they make two versions of each FMIC. "Bar and Plate" for the US tuners and "Tube and Fin" for the EU tuners. Not a whole bunch of people realize this. But I am told "tube and fin" is the way to go.

[Freon]

Interesting:
http://www.wagner-tuning.com/Interco...O-II_p_10.html

Wagner's own site quotes 175mbar pressure drop at various airflow rates for the four models of intercooler it sells. 175mbar is about 2.5psi, which is not very good (that should be considered an upper limit on acceptable pressure drop in my opinion). The EVO 1 Performance quotes its 175mbar drop at only 240g/s, which is probably about bone stock 7-8psi boost levels on a N54/N55 if not lower. That's HORRIBLE!

Mosselman's test showing 5.29psi pressure drop at tuned boost and airflow rates seems to add up from Wagner's own values, but there is some discrepancy still vs. what Wagner shows in their flowbench graph. I'd still conclude the EVO 1 Performance model rated at only 240g/s is pretty worthless from an aftermarket tuning perspective.

They do quote up to 336g/s on the top EVO 2 Competition model which is a lot better. That's probably more like a FBO car, or maybe a touch more (I'd guess ~380-400whp without meth).

I might even go as far to say I wouldn't suggest anyone buy any Wagner short of the EVO 2 Competition which has the highest airflow rating. Even the EVO 2 Performance at 282 g/s is not that impressive.

I don't think anyone should have too much prejudice against tube and fin. When properly designed they should be very effective. I tend to think people hold a prejudice due to the lack of good tube and fin designs. I bet those Wagner tube and fin work great. I wonder if Mosselman would test one of those...

[135Pats]

Bar and plate core pls.

[Freon]

Originally Posted by 135Pats

Bar and plate core pls.

Why? There's nothing inherently wrong with tube and fin if properly implemented.

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by Freon

Why? There's nothing inherently wrong with tube and fin if properly implemented.

Right but how often is that the case?

Agreed in theory there is nothing inherently inferior to a tube and fin. But in almost all examples you see, the charge pack protrudes and encourages poor (relative to a good bar and plate design) airflow.

[Freon]

Tube and fin is pretty rare outside factory equipment. If factory equipment was bar and plate I wonder if you'd say they were inferior...

Bar and plate wastes more cross section on the thickness of the plates themselves, which impedes flow... Due to the thinner walls tube and fin has more cross section for a total external unit size.

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by Freon

Tube and fin is pretty rare outside factory equipment. If factory equipment was bar and plate I wonder if you'd say they were inferior...

Bar and plate wastes more cross section on the thickness of the plates themselves, which impedes flow... Due to the thinner walls tube and fin has more cross section for a total external unit size.

I’m sure you would agree most air to air OE intercoolers are nothing special.

Yes if it’s poorly put together a bar and plate core wastes space and the charge can pass almost directly through it. By the same token, a poorly put together tube and fin core promotes horrible airflow into the core courtesy of the protruding fin packs.

You can make a fantastic core using either design, but for at least on our platform the overwhelming majority of high efficiency cores come in the form of a staggered bar and plate fin pack.

[m4xm1l10n]

Interesting Read ...
BUMP!!!

[Tiago@VRSF]

We've run 9 second 1/4 miles on our 800whp Evo with a bar and plate core.

Tube and fin cores are great for flow but not great for cooling. Bar and plate cores end up being a bit more restrictive but they cooling benefits are significantly better than the equivalent sized T&F core.

That Mishimoto looks awfully similar to our 5" end tank with the OEM connections which are a huge restriction on this platform since they neck down to 2". It's also twice the price.

[Mit_Boost]

Plenty of FMIC data threads on here & E90Post. I would say if you're shopping the Mishimoto FMIC at $800, I'd rather go with more proven products (specific to this platform) like the Helix Stepped FMIC. Possibly the best 5" core for IAT suppression, without suffering from pressure drops like a 7".

Hey guys,

Just stumbled across this thread and figured we should chime in!

We use OEM-style quick disconnects for a few reasons. Using this style connection creates a very simple installation that can be completed quickly and using basic tools. We also wanted our intercooler to represent the factory cooler as much as possible while adding performance and improving cooling capability. We realize a majority of E90 owners prefer to keep their vehicle OEM appearing and would prefer to not cut/modify any components. We have packaged our intercooler to provide a serious cooling upgrade while maintaining a factory-like appearance.

Our end-tank design is not a restriction at all. In fact our engineers designed and tested this using CFD software to observe proper airflow and air dispersion throughout the core. All of our testing was completed on a vehicle with an intake and tune, the results are below.

Maximum Power Gains: 21 hp / /24 tq
Average Power Gains: 13 hp / 14 tq
AIT Reduction: 35°F
Core Volume Increase: 22%

Another important data point for our cooler was pressure loss. We tested pressure loss across the core of both the stock unit and our intercooler. Both presented nearly identical losses.

For more in depth information/data regarding our intercooler, feel free to reference the report linked in the OP's first post.

Engineering Report

Check out a few images below! Keep in mind this is a prototype cooler that was drilled/tapped for testing.

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Plenty of FMIC data threads on here & E90Post. I would say if you're shopping the Mishimoto FMIC at $800, I'd rather go with more proven products (specific to this platform) like the Helix Stepped FMIC. Possibly the best 5" core for IAT suppression, without suffering from pressure drops like a 7".

Keep in mind that this is our MSRP pricing. Check with our vendors for the best pricing on our products!

Feel free to follow up with any questions regarding our cooler!

Thanks

[m4xm1l10n]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Plenty of FMIC data threads on here & E90Post. I would say if you're shopping the Mishimoto FMIC at $800, I'd rather go with more proven products (specific to this platform) like the Helix Stepped FMIC. Possibly the best 5" core for IAT suppression, without suffering from pressure drops like a 7".

I've ran 5" 6" and now the VRSF 7" and I don't suffer from any pressure drop. Maybe I'll experience it when the really warmer wheather gets here ?

[Freon]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

without suffering from pressure drops like a 7".

Citation needed?

[135iRick]

Originally Posted by mishimoto

Hey guys,

Just stumbled across this thread and figured we should chime in!

We use OEM-style quick disconnects for a few reasons. Using this style connection creates a very simple installation that can be completed quickly and using basic tools. We also wanted our intercooler to represent the factory cooler as much as possible while adding performance and improving cooling capability. We realize a majority of E90 owners prefer to keep their vehicle OEM appearing and would prefer to not cut/modify any components. We have packaged our intercooler to provide a serious cooling upgrade while maintaining a factory-like appearance.

Our end-tank design is not a restriction at all. In fact our engineers designed and tested this using CFD software to observe proper airflow and air dispersion throughout the core. All of our testing was completed on a vehicle with an intake and tune, the results are below.

Maximum Power Gains: 21 hp / /24 tq
Average Power Gains: 13 hp / 14 tq
AIT Reduction: 35°F
Core Volume Increase: 22%

Another important data point for our cooler was pressure loss. We tested pressure loss across the core of both the stock unit and our intercooler. Both presented nearly identical losses.

For more in depth information/data regarding our intercooler, feel free to reference the report linked in the OP's first post.

Engineering Report

Check out a few images below! Keep in mind this is a prototype cooler that was drilled/tapped for testing.




Keep in mind that this is our MSRP pricing. Check with our vendors for the best pricing on our products!

Feel free to follow up with any questions regarding our cooler!

Thanks

Any plans for 2011+ cars?

[3002 tii]

Originally Posted by GeeRam

If you have a N55, then the Forge Motorsport intercooler has end fittings that retain the OEM hoses.

I have the Forge intercooler on my 135, here it is next the OEM i/c.

I knew Forge offers something but don't see any US distributors .

edit

I see that HPA carries Forge but it is wayyyy out of my budget lol.

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by 3002 tii

I knew Forge offers something but don't see any US distributors .

Just had mine back on the dyno today since fitting the Forge so I can see what if any gains the Forge has made on what is essentially a stock N55.

Car showed a 16 rwhp gain with the Forge....... very happy with that

Originally Posted by 135iRick

Any plans for 2011+ cars?

At the moment we do not have plans for an intercooler for the 11+ models. If we are able to produce some interest on the forums, we could certainly look into the project!

Thanks

[uberschnell]

Originally Posted by mishimoto

Hey guys,

Our end-tank design is not a restriction at all. In fact our engineers designed and tested this using CFD software to observe proper airflow and air dispersion throughout the core. All of our testing was completed on a vehicle with an intake and tune, the results are below.

:

This was pointed out to me by someone on here a few years ago, but I don't think it's the end tanks that are a problem but the stock inlet and outlet couplers which bottleneck down to 2".