Trade out the S2000 for a 135i?

[Apex1.0]

Hello there...

So I am moving on from my Honda S2000 and would like to replace it with a nice weekend car that I can do some track days in. I know the S2000 makes a great track car, but I am looking to move on to something else. Below is a list of what I am looking for. Let me know if you think a 135i is a good fit.

Relatively balanced RWD chassis (<3700lbs)
Stock power to weight of 12lbs per hp or better.
Coupe (No convertibles)
Back seats (small is fine)
Some luxuries (nice enough to be daily driven)
Durable and reliable enough for track days
$10-20k for used example, high mileage is fine.

I considered a 2015 Mustang GT, but it may weigh more than 3700lbs and is about 25k used. Plus I have already owned a Mustang in the past.

A 335i is a good choice, but I actually think the 1 series is a bit more unique, plus i will take the 100-200lb weight savings. E46 M3 is good too but is getting a bit old now. Many examples will need fresh bushings, rust repair etc. I don't want to deal with an older car.

Overall I am just looking for something nicer to drive that can still work on the track. The S2k was awesome but really only driven at 10/10ths.

135i a good choice? If not, thoughts?

[lowbudgethero]

The 135i is lighter than 3700. 3370 is the curb weight of the base model. The major drawbacks with the 135i for me was mostly the suspension designed for run flats, the lack of lsd, and lack of front tire. S2000 will probably be a more enjoyable track car out of the box, but the 135i when modded is pretty damn fun.

If you don't want to mod or don't need extra power I'd try to find the newest e46 M3 you could afford. It's a better sorted suspension for road and track than the 335i and 135i.

[Biginboca]

Originally Posted by lowbudgethero

The 135i is lighter than 3700. 3370 is the curb weight of the base model. The major drawbacks with the 135i for me was mostly the suspension designed for run flats, the lack of lsd, and lack of front tire. S2000 will probably be a more enjoyable track car out of the box, but the 135i when modded is pretty damn fun.

If you don't want to mod or don't need extra power I'd try to find the newest e46 M3 you could afford. It's a better sorted suspension for road and track than the 335i and 135i.

What is the difference in suspension of the e92 328/335 and the e46M3 that makes the E46 better sorted? It sounds like you feel there is a significant difference in the design?

I would think the e46 suspension would be pretty tired at this point and need upgrades/refresh which is $ that could also be spent on the e92 as upgrades. Wouldn’t a e92 with upgraded springs/dampers/swaybar then be in the same class as the E46M3? (Disregarding the LSD of course just talking about the suspension.)

[lowbudgethero]

Originally Posted by Biginboca

What is the difference in suspension of the e92 328/335 and the e46M3 that makes the E46 better sorted? It sounds like you feel there is a significant difference in the design?

I would think the e46 suspension would be pretty tired at this point and need upgrades/refresh which is $ that could also be spent on the e92 as upgrades. Wouldn’t a e92 with upgraded springs/dampers/swaybar then be in the same class as the E46M3? (Disregarding the LSD of course just talking about the suspension.)

It would be in the same class with upgrades to the suspension, the 135i has very soft rear subframe bushings from the factory. You have a rubberband feeling in the back end over bumps, I got rid of that feeling with bushing inserts and better shocks and springs. It's pretty expensive to replace them with m3 bushings for labor however. With beefier springs and shocks it was pretty impressive transformation for me.

[Pig Farmer]

The 135i is (or can be made into) a very capable canyon carver, but it will cost you a small fortune to make it track worthy. Assuming you replace the suspension with M3 components, M3 subframe bushings, install an LSD, and add a decent set of coilovers, the car will handle at about 9/10 of a stock e92 M3. There's no getting around the short wheelbase. The front end will feel nicely planted, but the rear will always feel somewhat unpredictable. Then there's the issue with the brakes... The stock calipers look impressive, but the brake pistons are made from a ceramic composite that will crack if you beat on them at a track. You would probably want replace the pistons with stainless steel or aluminum (which are available), or get a BBK. Finally there's the issue with heat soak... This is by far the most frustrating issue. The engine will pull timing and feel lethargic as the heat rises, and eventually go into limp mode. I added an auxiliary radiator and larger Setrab oil cooler which helped by did not eliminate the issue with heat soak.

If you are serious about tracking the car, I would save yourself time and money and pick up an M3. If you want to build a badass little street car, the 135i is an awesome platform.

[kprocivic]

i agree with the consensus. 135 is no tracker without work.

rocketship worthy though absolutely.

[TrAcK TRaP]

I would mod and keep the S2000 if I were you..

[evoq007]

To the OP:

I have owned both an 2007 S2000 and a 135i. You will be disappointed in the 135i for track work after having an s2k. The s2k is much more engaging and thrilling on track and doesnt have the reliability concerns the 135i does.

As said above the rear end of the 135i is very twitchy and not well designed. The car does not feel planted at all in the rear.

I would keep the s2k and mod it more to be a track car. Or look into maybe a C5Z06 as a track car.

Good luck.

[Apex1.0]

Thanks for all the feedback. The s2k is a great car, may be the best pure drivers car out there. It's great on track. With Ohlins coilovers and bfg rivals I mixed it up with plenty of much faster cars gt3 zo6 and m3 included.

However on the street, it's not a great gt car. I want something I can still drive clients around in. Weekend trips with the wife. Summer drives with the kids in the back and still take it to track days. Plus I am all set with the convertible thing.

Budget around 20-25k. I will take suggestions.

Thought Porsche Cayman but the m97 has oiling issues on the track and is VERY expensive to replace. Plus it's not a 4 seater. Thought about an Alfa 4c but prices are not low enough yet, and also not a great gt car. Already had a c6 and a mustang. Frankly I would prefer a m3 or 1m but the 1m is ridiculously priced. M3 e92 would be awesome except the v8 has tight bearing clearances and expensive motor to replace.

That leads me to the 135i. It's cheap enough if I total it at the track it won't break me. Limp mode sucks, but the motor does not seem prone to catastrophic failure like Porsche m96/7 engines. It has a great blend of driver centric performance and useful luxury.

I think it's time to try a BMW.

[RedCarrot]

BRZ is the closest I can think of, with couple simple power mods and a decent set of tires

[Apex1.0]

Originally Posted by RedCarrot

BRZ is the closest I can think of, with couple simple power mods and a decent set of tires

Those are fun cars. Drove an frs for a while. It has back seats but not much of a gt car. S2k is about as luxurious. Plus the flat four sounds ehhhh...

Stripped out track weapon, sure. Weekend gt and track car... not for me.

[evoq007]

Maybe see if you can swing an M235.... rear suspension is a much better design.

[RedCarrot]

Originally Posted by Apex1.0

Those are fun cars. Drove an frs for a while. It has back seats but not much of a gt car. S2k is about as luxurious. Plus the flat four sounds ehhhh...

Stripped out track weapon, sure. Weekend gt and track car... not for me.

BRZ has a much better interior than the FRS, and atleast on par with 135, imo.

There’s the RX8. . It’s difficult to find one that checks all the boxes at that price range.

[Apex1.0]

I would love a fd rx7, but they are pretty old, expensive and generally unreliable. Rx8 is not a good looking car, IMO.

What's wrong with the e9x/e8x rear suspension? Besides it has 500 separate links?

[The Choosey begger]

The S2000 is a better autocross, track car than a 135i.

[sprp85]

Well s2000 isnt really comfy and ride worthy for clients. I cringe everytime I get into my buddy's car...

It seems like e46 m3 price is trending down a little as of now and it could be way to go , even with suspension refresh in mind.

[captain slowly]

I had a few Evos I use to track maybe 5-6 times per year, while my 135i sat in the garage for most of the time and I only took it to Lime Rock maybe 3 times total. Keep in mind, both were stock (and still are). The Evo out of the box handles quite a bit better. You could throw it into a turn at speeds much higher than you should, and it would figure it out... and make you look like you are much better than you are. Hurt a lot of feelings, for sure. At the front straight, I might get up to 110-115mph. In comparison, the 135i would do 130mph on the front straight, but needed to be driven very differently the rest of the way. Rear end is not as planted, a bit of understeer, not as good brakes as the Evo... But the Evo sucked for any other purpose other than the track, so I understand how you feel with about the S2000. Ride sucks, no sound insulation, 0 refinement, short gearing which makes everything worse (4000rpm at 70mph). The BMW is a great compromise. It can be driven daily, in comfort. It is also much faster in every day situations, and the suspension is not trying to knock your tooth fillings out. So, do it. Heck, come buy my stock 14k mile car. I'm ready for a new M2.

[Apex1.0]

Originally Posted by anglo

The S2000 is a better autocross, track car than a 135i.

I have driven lots of cars, and the S2000 may be the best 10/10ths car out there (at least those afforded by mortals).

I know it will be better on track than almost any BMW. I can only afford (an feel lucky to do so) one fun car.

I am looking for something I can take short business trips in, do the B&B thing on the weekends, have the kids come along in the back seat, and......... wait for it ........ occasionally do track days.

I am not looking for a pure track car.

That said I have not totally given up on M3s. Just that the prices seem wonky. E46s seem to go anywhere from 5k to 30k and there seems to be plenty of E90's that are suspiciously under 25k.

I like the look and size of the 135i and they seem to be plenty of options in the 15k range. Nice because it allows me to be able to tighten up the suspension and improve handling with my budget.

Thinking...

2k in coilovers
1k in RSFB and control arms as needed
2k for a wheel and tire package

If I get board, some basic power mods for more power. Remember a S2k is maxed from teh factory. Only option is FI. It would be nice to experience an easy 50-100hp increase.

Keep the feedback coming... its appreciated.

[asiflicious]

My 135i is faster than both an E46 and E9x M3. But I would trade my car for either of those in a heartbeat. The stock suspension on the 1er is truly awful. However I did drive a locals car with springs and dampers, camber plates, and some other bits and pieces (no lsd though) and it felt amazing. With an LSD it'd be a perfect DD for spirited canyon carving and occasional track days.

[Apex1.0]

I would start with suspension first. Right off the bat RSFB seem obligatory. After that, probably M3 control arms to improve steering response. Then a mid-range coil over with camber plates. I have found Konis work well with heavy spring rates for street and track. So Ground Control or TC Kline with something like 300/650 should do the trick. Maybe Ohlins R&T if the spring rates are right. Then a set of 1-series wheels with something like 245/275 200TW tires or so.

At that point, there is no point going much farther on handling IMO. The chassis is what it is. Replacing every bushing with sphericals, adding huge bars and JRZ 3-ways to chase 10ths makes no sense to me. Better to work on my driving.

As far as power, maybe some bolt-ons and cooling mods. I would like a tune with different maps. On the street, lean into it a bit. 450hp on 93 would be nice and fun. On track use stock or near stock maps. Consistency and safety being the priority.

I don't know. The more I think about it, the more I think the 135 is for me.

[zx10guy]

If you want some advice on how to sort out a 135i, hit up GeoffS on this board. I had the pleasure of driving his 135i recently when I was in town. It's amazing what he has done to the car to make it still civil on the street yet still a potent track weapon. He does autocross his car.

[chris_flies]

Find a 128i with M-Sport or Sport package (better seats and a rear sway bar). ~14 hp per pound, with an improvement to be had with the 3-Stage intake manifold, giving around 35 more hp (perfect amount, IMHO). It's about 150 pounds less than the 135i, stock. They're also cheaper than a 135i straight-up. About an LSD and some camber plates cheaper, at least.

For track work, you definitely will need to do some M3 control arms ($900 in all), sway bars (around $500), subframe bushings (less than $200, $45 for inserts :P ), camber plates (Dinan @ $200), and obvious things like wheels and tires. This is all stuff you will eventually REALLY want to do to both the 128i and 135i.

With a 128i, you get BMW's last N/A straight-six (and a great one at that), a manual transmission (not the work of art found in the S2K), and the wonderful nimbleness of the super short wheelbase, which gives the car its character. There are also no turbos to go bad, no downpipes to burst, no necessary walnut blasting, and less weight over the front axle.

Either way, they're fantastic cars, both of them. I'm partial to the 128i, though...

I wish you luck on your purchase!