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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > General E90 Sedan / E91 Wagon / E92 Coupe / E93 Cabrio > Met with FSE on Soft-Stop Problem...



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      08-03-2005, 04:21 PM   #23
onesixeight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichP
redthree,
The brakes are supposed to hold the car from rolling in the direction opposite your intended direction (aka car will not roll backward if in Drive/First gear) for about 2 second, then they are supposed to release in case you want to roll.

This softstop is nonsense. My car is manual, and I have never noticed the car lurching, or stopping "soft" I think the reason some of you experience what you are is based on what chris said earlier; the brakes let up a little, because the car is automatic, forward throttle is still being applied and the car begins to move, and then the brakes clamp down more to keep the car from continuing movement.

How far does the car actually lurch forward? No distance, a few inches, a foot? Could be a real safety concern if the car doesnt stop where you intend it to.

Is the lurching more common in 330s or 325s? that torque difference really down could affect the symptom (maybe just enough to get the car to move)
Rich,

You got it! But this hill-hold is another problem. You are parallel parking on a hill or grade, line up to the car in front of you, put the car into reverse (auto only) and release the brake. You expect the car to slowly roll back...Nope! Two seconds after you release the brakes, "thunk" the car releases the brakes, then you have to get back on the brakes to slow the car down. Get what I'm saying? I asked the FSR about it, "Comm'on, do autos really need hill-hold?". Answer: If you've ever driven in SF you do! I've lived in SF for 5 years and I've never had a problem with an the hils, especially in an automatic!

At first, I thought the problem was limited to 325's, but yesterday I drove the 330i and it did it too.

Car lurches forward about an inch at 90% of stops. But the car can move another 4-6 inches if you don't modulate the brakes...because I'm used to letting up on the brakes to smoothen out the stop. It's like, you still have to modulate the brakes to stop smoothly, and if you don't car will jerk hard like any other car coming to a stop. If you let up too much, car will feel like it's stopping but right at the end of the stop sequence, car will release some brake pressure...that's the soft-stop kicking in. FSR's reply...you gotta hit the brake harder. OK...you know what...I'm just going to mash the pedal to the floor at every stop. Especially when there is a cop behind me...Hey, cop rear ends me, collect some insurance benefits...we're all happy aren't we!

-Chris
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      08-03-2005, 04:28 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90Fleet
Have you driven a manual car with the same suspension and seen if it does it ?

For those wondering all E90 have the soft-stop, even the australian models ( they are built here )
I drove a manual 330i back in early May when the E90s were first released in the US. Although I wasn't aware of the issue back then, I would have noticed it if it did it. I drove the car for 2 hours straight on some back roads of this mountain course that I usually go to to really drive the cars. In short, the manual 330i I drove didn't exhibit the soft-stop behavior.

I asked them to try and manual E90, but they didn't have one in stock...I'm not even sure if that's true. But even the FSR agreed with me that the manual probably wouldn't exhibit the problem as bad as my car, BUT...big BUT...would still exhibit the suspension "bob." I will go back and test a E90 manual and prove that it's the brakes that are slipping and not the suspension BS he claims it is.

Yup...I thought that all E90s have soft-stop, but I wasn't sure and I didn't want to give wrong info.

-Chris
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      08-03-2005, 04:30 PM   #25
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never mind
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      08-03-2005, 05:39 PM   #26
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so it looks like the manual cars don't have this problem?
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      08-03-2005, 06:06 PM   #27
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I called BMW today and made an appointment for Friday for software update for the brake lurching. They are also going to look at the shimmy. BTW, Jenny was off today. They said the software update should adjust the engine and transmission computer management. I hope this will solve the problem.
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      08-03-2005, 06:09 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weiweiwei
so it looks like the manual cars don't have this problem?
Based on what I'm experiencing and my seat time in a manual E90, I would not expect a manual E90 to experience the lurch of soft-stop. Automatic tranny cars are always in gear and the tranny is therefore "loaded" up so to speak. In a manual, you clutch in just before coming to a stop and therefore have no load on the drivetrain to drive the car forward when coming to a stop.

The lurch is a combination of the brake slipping because pressure is being release by soft-stop and load on the transmission propelling the car forward.

It still bugs me that they won't admit this as a problem, but say it's my perception of the car. I'm going to video tape this shortly to prove the car is moving forward...Anyone know a good place to host videos?

-Chris
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      08-03-2005, 06:11 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nimo
I called BMW today and made an appointment for Friday for software update for the brake lurching. They are also going to look at the shimmy. BTW, Jenny was off today. They said the software update should adjust the engine and transmission computer management. I hope this will solve the problem.
Did they say they had a software update specifically for the brake lurching? According to the FSR, he said that september software update is all rumors. They is so internal information that there is even a software update available in the near future, except to activate DRL, door locks, etc.

Who did you speak to? I'd be interested to hear from them any concrete information they have about a software update.
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      08-03-2005, 06:47 PM   #30
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I forgot who I spoke to, but he look the symptoms up for me since I have a little experience with social engineering. Krista will be my service advisor on Friday. She was not in today. The male technician says the software update with change my engine and transmission management which may be causing the lurching. As I mentioned earlier that the engine loading and converter lock-up might be the culprit. This is the only software update available now. The technician was very highly trained in "replying" to questions and being politcally correct as if it was a protocol. I guess my circumventing strategy worked on him.

On other cars I have driven when you come to stop and the engine speed returns to idle, the computer management disengages the torque converter lockup solenoids which feels like your in neutral.

168, I am dropping it off at 7:30 AM on Friday and your welcomed to listen in. I left my phone at home today, but you can call me this evening for more details.

Last edited by nimo; 08-03-2005 at 08:12 PM..
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      08-03-2005, 06:52 PM   #31
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Maybe someone with the lurching problem can try this:

Put your car in full Auto mode, (drive) and then when you are coming up to a stop, push the lever into Neutral just before you apply the brakes. Then stop normally without the tranny engaged. See if the car still lurches. If it doesn't, it is likely the tranny.

Again, I can tell you that my Manual Transmission E90 does not have a lurching problem.
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      08-03-2005, 08:39 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nimo
I forgot who I spoke to, but he look the symptoms up for me since I have a little experience with social engineering. Krista will be my service advisor on Friday. She was not in today. The male technician says the software update with change my engine and transmission management which may be causing the lurching. As I mentioned earlier that the engine loading and converter lock-up might be the culprit. This is the only software update available now. The technician was very highly trained in "replying" to questions and being politcally correct as if it was a protocol. I guess my circumventing strategy worked on him.

On other cars I have driven when you come to stop and the engine speed returns to idle, the computer management disengages the torque converter lockup solenoids which feels like your in neutral.

168, I am dropping it off at 7:30 AM on Friday and your welcomed to listen in. I left my phone at home today, but you can call me this evening for more details.
Krista is great too! I think you might have spoken to Glenn Pestana or maybe Mike...Glenn is shop forman, but he rode with us yesterday and didn't mention anything about software update. FSR denied any soft update in the pipeline. They got a CD last week with a bunch of updates for all models, but the software on that CD was the same on my car.

I'll give you a call tonight say around 8pm.

Regards,
Chris
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      08-03-2005, 08:47 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CC 330i
Maybe someone with the lurching problem can try this:

Put your car in full Auto mode, (drive) and then when you are coming up to a stop, push the lever into Neutral just before you apply the brakes. Then stop normally without the tranny engaged. See if the car still lurches. If it doesn't, it is likely the tranny.

Again, I can tell you that my Manual Transmission E90 does not have a lurching problem.
It won't do it in neutral just as it doesn't do it in the manual transmission E90s. The car is moving forward due to the tranny being loaded, but in any auto tranny car, if you release brake pressure, the car will move forward. So the car is lurching forward because the car is releasing the brakes, allowing the car to lurch forward. It's like the car releases, then decides to apply the brakes again.
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      08-04-2005, 02:11 AM   #34
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You said you were easing off the breaks. What if you don't? Or not as much? I don't mean slam them, I just mean let it do most of the easing off, instead of you doing it all. Does the soft-stop reduce the break pressure to a fixed absolute value, or just relative to how hard you are breaking? If the latter, then you can still control it, although it sounds like it isn't at all natural and definitely needs some tweaking.
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      08-04-2005, 05:22 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inline6
You said you were easing off the breaks. What if you don't? Or not as much? I don't mean slam them, I just mean let it do most of the easing off, instead of you doing it all. Does the soft-stop reduce the break pressure to a fixed absolute value, or just relative to how hard you are breaking? If the latter, then you can still control it, although it sounds like it isn't at all natural and definitely needs some tweaking.
Yes...I brought this up with the FSR. I said, "ok, let's try as stop where I just leave my foot on the pedal with constant pressure." The car jerked violently and came to a stop just as with any other car, with a little slip at the end. So I ask him, "ok...where is the soft-stop. This car doesn't stop any softer than any other BMW. His wonderful reply, "well, it doesn't really do anything to smoothen out the stop, just regulate the amount of suspension travel to provide optimal contact with the road." Again, let's go back and understand what soft stop is...Isn't the whole point of soft-stop to ummm...create a..umm..let me see...SOFT STOP! To go one step further, let me quote what BMW mentions about soft-stop:

Soft Stop Assist: Just like a chauffeur

We all know the situation: Just before a car comes to a halt, there is an abrupt jolt. Experienced drivers and professional chauffeurs in particular can often avoid the jolt by taking special care when braking. Now there is an easier way: The Soft Stop Assist function of the MK60 E5 recognizes that the vehicle is coming to a halt and reduces the brake pressure at the rear wheels just before it stops.


Someone please tell me what I'm missing!

-Chris
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      08-04-2005, 02:52 PM   #36
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Just a thought, but is the Transmission downshifting from 2nd to 1st when the jerk occurs? It would make sence that the change in torque to the rear wheels could trick the brakes into letting the car move forward.
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      08-04-2005, 03:02 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredtoo
Just a thought, but is the Transmission downshifting from 2nd to 1st when the jerk occurs? It would make sence that the change in torque to the rear wheels could trick the brakes into letting the car move forward.

Thanks for the reply Fred...


I brought that before the FSR, but he doesn't think so and I don't think so either. When the car does that lurch, you can feel something going on in the brakes. Even 5-10 seconds after the stop, you can feel something funny going on in the brake pedal. I've already tried downshifting in stepmode from 2nd to 1st, and it's a different feeling. Plus, when the brake slip, you can hear the brake grind, or the sound of friction between the pads and the disc.

-Chris
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      09-26-2005, 08:22 AM   #38
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Lurching after stop

I have a 2006 325i that has been lurching after a stop since I bought it back in June 2005. The car currently has 2500 miles on it. Here's my experience so far:

1. I can say for sure that the lurching stops when I put the automatic transmission in "Sport" mode. If it's truly a problem with the soft stop feature on the brakes, then there must be some electronic gadgetry making the brakes and tranny work together.
2. My dealership originally claimed that it was a tranny software issue and that (back in July), they were going to issue a software fix in 30 days to correct the problem.
3. After waiting 90+ days, the dealership said that BMW determined the issue to be a "normal function of the vehicle" and that no update or repair will be made.
4. I am now considering filing an Ohio Lemon Law claim as this issue could potentially create a safety hazard to myself and others.

Falcitron
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      09-26-2005, 08:28 AM   #39
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Have you had it upgraded with the latest CIP 19.01 ??
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      09-26-2005, 08:33 AM   #40
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Not yet. My dealership service manager has mentioned this new CIP, but says he is uncertain whether or not it would fix the problem. He also said that he's been advised by BMW not to load the software on his server, because they've found that it screws up the Z3 and Z4's computer system. This is so ridiculous.....have you had luck with the new CIP 19.01?
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      09-26-2005, 08:43 AM   #41
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Havent heard of dealers having problems with CIP 19.01

I know E60 5 Series cars got transmission fixes for transmission slam in CIP 18, and since they share the transmission with the E90 there may also be software on it for the E90
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      09-26-2005, 08:46 AM   #42
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I guess that begs the question of: Is this a transmission problem or a brake problem? BMW says its the tranny (although they refuse to fix it), but the soft stop feature does seem to make sense.

Has anyone else here tried to get CIP 19.1 installed?
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      09-26-2005, 10:56 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90Fleet
Have you driven a manual car with the same suspension and seen if it does it ?

For those wondering all E90 have the soft-stop, even the australian models ( they are built here )

Only the 6cyl E90s have it - you need DSC Plus. All 4 cyl models have standard DSC so don't get hill take off control, wet brake wiping and soft stop. I thought this was global... do you get the 4cyl models in South Africa, or the sixes only?
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      09-26-2005, 11:03 AM   #44
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I can't believe that BMW allowed the car to be released with this issue. When I drove a step 325 it had the problem, and it made me feel like an idiot with the salesman sitting next to me - like I couldn't drive. It was obvious, and obvious (to me at least) that it had something to do with the auto transmission creep confusing the brake system.

How could BMW miss this, or think that soft stop in its current form would be acceptable to customers??
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