MT and Track Techniques

[The Cthulhu]

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[frimmelnojerz]

try saying "Hyungahhhh" to yourself at a normal speed when you blip the throttle for a downshift. thats how long the blip should be.

[The HACK]

Double clutching has been obsolete on cars made after the late 70s, even for track use. Any transmission equipped with synchros would make double clutching redundant.

[vasracer]

late breaking does not work well on the track with this car, firstly the brakes simple work harder and fade pretty quickly, as me how i know..

trail braking also is nice, but didn't work as well for me as it did in the lotus, I have an elise that is well-tracked, and that is a great trail-braking car. The 1 is very difficult to rotate is such a fashion. it is very safe, and will try to continue in a straight line.

A very fun rotational techniques is power oversteer, even without an lsd, it will overpower both rears and swing out nicely, much more controllable than I would have expected, and then is hooks up and off you go.

This is what I experience after 3 track days on stock tires and suspension. This weekend we will try the stock tires one more time, but now with dinan stage 3, and we will see how we do.

[frimmelnojerz]

Originally Posted by vasracer

late breaking does not work well on the track with this car, firstly the brakes simple work harder and fade pretty quickly, as me how i know..

trail braking also is nice, but didn't work as well for me as it did in the lotus, I have an elise that is well-tracked, and that is a great trail-braking car. The 1 is very difficult to rotate is such a fashion. it is very safe, and will try to continue in a straight line.

A very fun rotational techniques is power oversteer, even without an lsd, it will overpower both rears and swing out nicely, much more controllable than I would have expected, and then is hooks up and off you go.

This is what I experience after 3 track days on stock tires and suspension. This weekend we will try the stock tires one more time, but now with dinan stage 3, and we will see how we do.

i think he's mistaking double clutching with simple heel toe downshifting.

[The Cthulhu]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Double clutching has been obsolete on cars made after the late 70s, even for track use. Any transmission equipped with synchros would make double clutching redundant.

You should double clutch hard downshifts whenever possible to avoid wearing your synchros on the track. If you can't, don't learn on a BMW. You can wear synchros pretty fast if you track the car and do a LOT of hard shifting without double clutching. They're little ramps, or wedges, on the gears that generate progressively more and more pressure as you slide into gear. If you bang the car into gear on a fast downshift, you will feel the resistance. If you wear your synchros out, you'll have to learn to double clutch

Even if I'm on the highway, if I'm going from overdrive to powerband, I double clutch with a blip rather than a normal matched downshift. If you do it PERFECTLY right, you wouldn't need a clutch, it would just fall into gear.

I double clutch + heel toe at the same time if I'm driving hard, but the main reason is for track practice. It's tough to learn, but if you have a beater, it's fun to do. After driving some more, I'm going to machine a piece for the gas pedal to raise it a little higher. That way, heel-toe will be easier.

Again, the main reason I double clutch is to practice for non-synchro gearboxes. I can do it perfectly on normal downshifts, and perfectly on hard heel-toe downshifts into corners. I haven't messed up too badly yet, but want to elevate my gas pedal a little to make it easier.



Who's mistaking what now frimmel? You lost me on what you quoted and said. :-/

Vas, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about late braking? Do you actually brake earlier to avoid fade? Then do you go slow in, instead of trail braking, and induce power oversteer?

[frimmelnojerz]

you type a lot. keep it to a few short sentences.

[The Cthulhu]

It's ok, you can sound it out if you need to.

<looks at your name>

maybe not... :-/

Seriously though, why post if you aren't gonna read the thread? And why comment on how much the op types? Go away if you don't wanna read what I have to say.

[kc_skyrider]

Mason engineering is coming out with a new clutch pedal (the whole assembly) that has a shorter travel and less flex. This thing should be perfect for those of us that like to use heel toe.

[The Cthulhu]

Originally Posted by kc_skyrider

Mason engineering is coming out with a new clutch pedal (the whole assembly) that has a shorter travel and less flex. This thing should be perfect for those of us that like to use heel toe.

REALLY? I hope it doesn't cost too much!

[ILMOSTRO]

You don't need to actually depress the clutch pedal twice. You only need to blip the throttle while your on your way from say 5th to 4th. It takes a fraction of a second.

Sequence - dip clutch, pull out of fifth while you blip throttle, put into 4th, revs should be matched, let out clutch. no jerking.

You might need to practice a bit and remember that going from gear to gear is a different ration so you may need more or less 'blip' on the throttle.

[vasracer]

Originally Posted by The Cthulhu

Vas, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about late braking? Do you actually brake earlier to avoid fade? Then do you go slow in, instead of trail braking, and induce power oversteer?

compared with how I track with the lotus, i learned in a most entertaining way, that you just have to brake a lot earlier, or else the car just will not turn in (at least in stock form). Trail braking always help, and makes a lotus spin easier, but the bmw is setup so benignly, that not much happens. I found that by doing more braking (slow in, fast out) really does work.

anyway, on the double clutch issues, some instructor warned me about the throw out bearing, (whatever that is).

[The Cthulhu]

The clutch fork grabs the outside of the thrust bearing (that has a driveshaft through its center) and pulls the pressure plate off of the clutch so it can spin freely (I think that's right).

The more you smack your clutch up and down, the more you're pushing perpendicular to the rotation of the throwout bearing. I'd hope the throwout bearing can take it... I mean, it's meant to do that.

LOL BR3CK! What you are describing is how to downshift using the synchros. If you don't blip a downshift and you're jerking, you wear the clutch big time (and also the synchros). If you rev match, you wear the synchros. If you double clutch and rev match, properly, it's better for everything on hard downshifts (except maybe your throwout bearing).

The procedure I have a tough time with (unless I'm braking hard and driving hard) is the following:
Apply brake for a turn (left side of right foot/ball of right foot)
Depress clutch
Shift to neutral
Lift clutch
Raise RPM from the previous (high) gear's RPM to the desired (low) gear's RPM (using right side of right foot/heel)
Depress clutch
Shift into low gear
Lift clutch
Gradually lift off the brake while initiating the turn (left side of right foot/heel)
Maintain throttle to apex (right side of right foot/heel)
Ramp throttle up past the apex, accelerating hard out of the turn

The clutch lift matches up gearbox speeds to reduce load on the synchros, and isn't mandatory, but it's one of the things I'm talking about.





Vas, I hope I don't wear my throwout bearing too much by doubleclutching. The main reason I'm doubleclutching is so it's more natural in a formula car at skip. If I kill it prematurely, hopefully it won't be at a mileage before my synchros would have given out from downshifts.

[vasracer]

Originally Posted by The Cthulhu

Vas, I hope I don't wear my throwout bearing too much by doubleclutching. The main reason I'm doubleclutching is so it's more natural in a formula car at skip. If I kill it prematurely, hopefully it won't be at a mileage before my synchros would have given out from downshifts.

good drawing. it's funny, i was at skip barber back in 2004, and i remember they had us double clutching in their cars. I remember the class being quite befuddled for a while despite most of the class having track experience. I had virtually none at the time. I still haven't lost the befuddled feeling about all this...

I don't double clutch now, but i can't argue with its benefits.

[The Cthulhu]

Originally Posted by vasracer

good drawing. it's funny, i was at skip barber back in 2004, and i remember they had us double clutching in their cars. I remember the class being quite befuddled for a while despite most of the class having track experience. I had virtually none at the time. I still haven't lost the befuddled feeling about all this...

I don't double clutch now, but i can't argue with its benefits.

Before my saturn died (I hope it's not WHY my saturn died ) I was practicing a lot. The weirdest thing ever is applying gentle pressure to the shifter in 4th gear, lifting off the throttle, and rev matching and letting it fall into 3rd.

If you want to figure out RPMs, shift normally from 4th to 3rd back and forth at a speed, and then play with double clutching, or perfectly revmatched, clutchless downshifting. If you make anything grind, cringe and stop

If you're at a point where you already know what RPM you should downshift to, you might as well double clutch downshifts. I find myself downshifting and upshifting again without double clutching just to confirm what RPM I should be at in a gear at a speed.

There have definitely been times where I reved too high or too low on a doubleclutch and released the clutch. Not as bad as a grinding noise, but it made me cringe and spank my shift knob back and forth with my teeth clenched (LOL, no pervy comments).