1 series M intercooler is the same as 135i

[brusk]

Originally Posted by 2012one35i

For example, my last turbo car was a 2003 WRX. I used to laugh at the guys who converted to front mount intercoolers running the stock turbo. I ended up with big injectors, big fuel pump, big j-spec ball bearing turbo @ 23+ psi, and Cobb Tuning maps to bring it all together. I ran a j-spec STI top mount intercooler and ran 13.20's with it. That's an OEM intercooler, folks, and the car ran hard. I'm hoping for high 12's out of my 1'er. That's hard charging enough for me. Again, will reliability improve with a FMIC?

Reliability will be a good question with this engine since it's not only plagued with being a hot running turbo car it's also got all the DI issues that we are hearing about. To me a reliable turbo car needs proper cooling which it doesn't seem to be talked about much here. If a PPK V2 adds an additional radiator cooler I would think that would be a concern. I think a better thicker possibly taller radiator would be in order with maybe a thinner taller intercooler and more places for the heat to exit the engine compartment.

[RnmEvo9]

Originally Posted by 2012one35i

For example, my last turbo car was a 2003 WRX. I used to laugh at the guys who converted to front mount intercoolers running the stock turbo. I ended up with big injectors, big fuel pump, big j-spec ball bearing turbo @ 23+ psi, and Cobb Tuning maps to bring it all together. I ran a j-spec STI top mount intercooler and ran 13.20's with it. That's an OEM intercooler, folks, and the car ran hard. I'm hoping for high 12's out of my 1'er. That's hard charging enough for me. Again, will reliability improve with a FMIC?

With Dinan, its going to be semi tough as they are really conservative. There are better options for the N55 motor.

Here is a link that offers a lot of information regarding intercoolers: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...mic+comparison

[2012one35i]

Originally Posted by brusk

Reliability will be a good question with this engine since it's not only plagued with being a hot running turbo car it's also got all the DI issues that we are hearing about. To me a reliable turbo car needs proper cooling which it doesn't seem to be talked about much here. If a PPK V2 adds an additional radiator cooler I would think that would be a concern. I think a better thicker possibly taller radiator would be in order with maybe a thinner taller intercooler and more places for the heat to exit the engine compartment.

A good point. I wasn't aware this car was more susceptible to high coolant/oil temps. I do know the ECU or DME or whatever will pull timing/boost if temps get out of hand. An intercooler/oil cooler/radiator will dissipate more heat, allowing the ECU/DME to provide more power.

[2012one35i]

Originally Posted by RnmEvo9

With Dinan, its going to be semi tough as they are really conservative. There are better options for the N55 motor.

Here is a link that offers a lot of information regarding intercoolers: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...mic+comparison

Nice link. Sounds like Shiv has more respect for an OEM intercooler than most!

[Eyeman]

There's plenty of scientific info out there, mainly on the 335 part of this site, but most of it relates to the standard piggyback tuned car. As you know, cooler air into the turbos gives you more HP. However, if you live in Oregon, only plan on a stage1 Dinan tune and don't plan to track your car, then it doesn't sound like you really need to upgrade much of anything.

However, these cars when heavily tuned do run hot very quickly. It's amazing to me how quickly my oil will heat up once I get into the HP, even in cool weather. But I am running around 400hp to the wheels and not using meth and I still don't run into limp mode or notice HP loss since I don't really race. I just like to embarass others or burn some tires here or there.

With all my mods, I "needed" an upgraded FMIC, but actually to some degree I did it for cosmetics. I hated the look of the stock intercooler, my ETS is powder coated black. I also wanted to upgrade some of the stock piping to the intercooler.

Good luck with your choice!

[2012one35i]

Thanks! And with ETS less than 20 minutes from my house (and they do installs), I may just do it to increase potentially locked up ECU/DME power. Thank you to all who replied.

[Freon]

Pressure drop also costs power. It's like breathing hard through a straw. The long, narrow, and short factory tube and fin design doesn't have a ton of internal cross section for high flow.

Not sure "heatsoak" is an issue with a front mount, especially a tube and fin with plastic end tanks. There's not enough mass there to add much delay in the core heating up if it can't shed heat fast enough. Comparing a 12 second drag race or a 20 minute road race session won't make a while lot of difference in how the intercooler performs.

A few hundred pounds of aluminum, water, oil DO have a lot of heat capacity and can hide poor cooling for seconds or minutes.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by JHOOPS2

Yes, I can log intake temps. The stock ICS is the biggest pile of junk intercooler I have ever seen. I am running a Cobb stage 2+ aggressive tune.

Hype much?

[JHOOPS2]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Hype much?

What's that supposed to mean? I listed my mods and tune so that he would know that I am not running stock boost. Trying to be scientific where you are just being a troll. In any case I had an 88 also as my first car back in 1995. Awesomely fun machine. Definitely a drivers car like non other in that time period and quite a bit beyond.

[JHOOPS2]

Also, to be a bit more scientific I have some base numbers without the FMIC on my dynojet, and as soon as the weather matches most closely to what it was when I did those pulls I will ratchet the car back down and see what a difference the FMIC made on the same tune. I have a load cell attached to my DJ, so I can do some long controlled runs and generate some real world load and temps for good comparison.

[135iUSN]

Originally Posted by Freon

CP-E has a great white paper here:
http://cp-e.com/sites/default/files/files/n54FMIC.pdf

I really like their methodology and thoroughness.

Short version: The factory intercooler does fine at 8-10psi, still ok at 12psi, but 14-16+ and at higher RPM it really starts to perform poorly.

---

so what boost does the dinan stage go up to?
The web site only says "Dinan Stage 2 Performance Engine Software safely increases turbo-boost pressure"

glad I have an early update as they dropped the HP/TQ on new version of SW.

[TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management]

Helix fmic will make 10-15 HP on a bone stock car and that increase will be sustained as it takes a long time to heat soak, on a tuned car it will make 20+HP over stock through much of its powerband. Since ait on the helix only rises a few degrees every 2-3-4 gear run(vs 35-75 degree rise stock) and it has an exposed ambient face 56-70% larger than stock and stock height but thicker replacements it will also recover back to ambient temps much quicker between runs!

[TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management]

Here's some data taken from INDEPENDANT datalogs, all intercoolers are not equal as some are only marginally better than stock, SHIV tested several intercoolers and helix had tested the best and he still runs a helix on his 600+ HP single turbo car!

***rely on INDEPENDANT end user datalogs not manufacturer claims or sales pitches because some claims from some manufacturers are laughable especially when the end user data looks nothing like their sales pitch!


HELIX-Intercooler Efficiency 86% through 3 gears
Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator
inlet temperature-85
input pressure-14.5
output pressure-14
compressor efficiency-70%
Outlet Temp- 249

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator
IC input Temperature-249
IC Pressure loss-.5
Ambient Temp-85
Plenum Temp-108
IC Efficiency-86%

ETS-Intercooler Efficiency 80% through 3 gears
Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator
inlet temperature-50
input pressure-14.5
output pressure-?
compressor efficiency-***using datalogged output temp***
Outlet Temp- 248 ***taken from datalog***

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator
IC input Temperature-248
IC Pressure loss-.5
Ambient Temp-50
Plenum Temp-91
IC Efficiency-80%

AMS-Intercooler Efficiency 79% through 3 gears
Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator
inlet temperature-58
input pressure-14.5
output pressure-14
compressor efficiency-70%
Outlet Temp- 214

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator
IC input Temperature-214
IC Pressure loss-.5
Ambient Temp-58
Plenum Temp-112
IC Efficiency-79%

Dinan/spearco/Code 3-Intercooler Efficiency 54% through 3 gears
Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator
inlet temperature-65
input pressure-14.5
output pressure-14
compressor efficiency-70%
Outlet Temp- 223

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator
IC input Temperature-223
IC Pressure loss-.5
Ambient Temp-65
Plenum Temp-139
IC Efficiency-54%

[bryce]

the stock intercooler is useless after a 2-3-4 WOT pull. i've logged it myself on my old 135i and my 335i. i have the ets 5" intercooler, it doesn't heat soak nearly as bad, and after some hard driving the IAT's are normally within 20-25 degrees ambient.

[bdoooh]

Aren't IATs pre-intercooler? ..if it's measured in the intake.. it wouldn't mean squat..

Intake >> Turbo >> Intercooler >> Engine.

[TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management]

Originally Posted by bdoooh

Aren't IATs pre-intercooler? ..if it's measured in the intake.. it wouldn't mean squat..

Intake >> Turbo >> Intercooler >> Engine.

No ait in this case are measured after intercooler!

[TunedM2C]

Originally Posted by bryce

the stock intercooler is useless after a 2-3-4 WOT pull. i've logged it myself on my old 135i and my 335i. i have the ets 5" intercooler, it doesn't heat soak nearly as bad, and after some hard driving the IAT's are normally within 20-25 degrees ambient.

I'm between the ETS & Helix at this point. I do have the ETS CP which would match up well with the new ETS piping.

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by GaryS

came for the popcorn as well, wasnt disappointed - It was yummy.

Originally Posted by JHOOPS2

What's that supposed to mean? I listed my mods and tune so that he would know that I am not running stock boost. Trying to be scientific where you are just being a troll.

[1speedbike]

Originally Posted by Eddie135

With daily driving and occasional WOT driving, is the stock intercooler enough?

Yes it is. If you're going to a track, or drive like a maniac with lots of speeding up fast and slowing down, then an intercooler is a good idea. I know Cobb insists that you upgrade the IC to use their more aggressive tunes, but if you're not sustaining the engine load for an extended time and only doing a couple quick pulls for fun, it's not necessary. Mine has been holding up just fine for daily driving, even with lots of hard starts from stoplights, highway onramps, etc. For sustained driving like that, though, the intercooler helps a lot.

Also, methanol injection is just as effective, if not more, than an intercooler at keeping the temps down, too. But methanol is its own can of worms.

[bryce]

Originally Posted by bdoooh

Aren't IATs pre-intercooler? ..if it's measured in the intake.. it wouldn't mean squat..

Intake >> Turbo >> Intercooler >> Engine.

IAT's are measured in the charge pipe by the T-Map sensor. it's after the intercooler, about 3" from the throttle body.

Originally Posted by TTurboBullett

No ait in this case are measured after intercooler!

Originally Posted by Tuned1M

I'm between the ETS & Helix at this point. I do have the ETS CP which would match up well with the new ETS piping.

can't go wrong with either really. i like the ETS personally. although it's smaller in overall size, it has a lot of surface area due to the higher number of charge rows

[Colt]

Originally Posted by brusk

I think a better thicker possibly taller radiator would be in order

Does anyone even make an aftermarket radiator for this car?

[TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management]

Originally Posted by bryce

can't go wrong with either really. i like the ETS personally. although it's smaller in overall size, it has a lot of surface area due to the higher number of charge rows

You are aware the helix has an ambient face 56% larger than the ETS and has more charge rows(13 vs 9 or 10) right? Our exposed ambient face is about 70% larger and we also use a very dense offset staggered fin core!