[obLu]

Did I miss something, why are you all comparing a $20k Honda two-door to your BMW? For example:

Generally speaking I was not impressed with quality of Honda build (sound isolation, quality of interior and so on).

Yeah, it's a $20k car, I wouldn't expect too much out of it. Compared to cars in it's price range it's probably top of the heap.

For it's intended audience the new Si is a homerun. If I were 16-20 and buying my first car this'd be what I had to have.

Right now I'm driving a Toyota Camry rental car while I'm waiting for my 330 to be delivered. Total pile of sh*t from my perspective, and there's no way I'd buy one. But I see tons of these things on the road. If I only wanted to spend $20k on a family sedan though?

It's all about perspective.

[lux.sh]

Originally Posted by ABR

Generally speaking I was not impressed with quality of Honda build (sound isolation, quality of interior and so on).

You are not alone. After all the "honda=definition of reliability", I wasn't too impressed with it.

They do make few cars that are very fun to drive though. High-RPM fun is quite a different experience. Listening to a car that revs close to 9000rpm is pure sex.

[lux.sh]

Originally Posted by obLu

For it's intended audience the new Si is a homerun. If I were 16-20 and buying my first car this'd be what I had to have.

Exactly what I want to say. Its no BMW, but if I was cash-limited to 16~20k, i'll visit the honda dealership first.

[johnny420]

Originally Posted by ward

it's cheap, and looks/feels cheap

I for one wouldn't consider it even if it slalomed at 73 mph (boxster territory)

Yeah. Cheap, cheap-looking, maybe. Drives like a bat out of hell for $20K, definitely.

[Bimmerista]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

Exactly what I want to say. Its no BMW, but if I was cash-limited to 16~20k, i'll visit the honda dealership first.

Mazda anyone ?

[lux.sh]

Originally Posted by Bimmerista

Mazda anyone ?

3rd on the list. 2nd is Mini cooper.

[ward]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

Exactly what I want to say. Its no BMW, but if I was cash-limited to 16~20k, i'll visit the honda dealership first.

if I was cash limited to 16-20K I'd have a 3-4 year old 3 series, not a new stinking civic

you can get a pretty nice BMW for that kind of cash

[Bimmerista]

Not everyone can afford a BMW after buying a used one-maintenance and repair can be quite expensive.

[lux.sh]

yeah, you can always get a used 3 series, but people at that price range probably don't want to be bothered with maintenance/repair bills as Bimmerista stated.

also, what if you want the new car smell!!

[ward]

Originally Posted by Bimmerista

Not everyone can afford a BMW after buying a used one-maintenance and repair can be quite expensive.

everyone has had different experiences, but if you do the smart thing and have your car checked before you purchase, a 3-4 year old car with 30-40K miles on it is certainly not a "money pit"

of all places a BMW forum should understand how overblown the "expensive" BMW repair is

out here in CA there's tons of good independant shops

what makes a repair expensive anyways?? so a brake job costs $100 extra (just a random repair and guesstimate)
it's all worth it


What's not worth it is paying 20 grand for a honda when you could have had a BMW for the same money, and taken less of a depreciation hit.

[obLu]

of all places a BMW forum should understand how overblown the "expensive" BMW repair is

Nope, we of all people know how expensive maintaining a modern BMW out of warranty really is. It's not the mechanicals, those are a piece of cake.

It's all the electrical gremlins. "my idrive is doing funky stuff", "bmw assist button doesn't work after sept software update", "I found my car with all the doors unlocked in the morning" etc etc.

If I only had 20k to spend on a car, chances are REAL good I don't have 3-4k a year to spend in extra repairs. I just want a fun car, that I don't have to spend a lot of time or money on. I'd even go out on a limb and generalize (because that's where I was in life when I was spending $20k on a car) that that person would be working hourly and couldn't afford a lot of BS time taking the car into the shop.

I probably would've kept an e46 out of warranty, but I doubt I'll be keeping an e90 not on warranty. Too many integrated electrical components and BMW ain't known for their outstanding electronics.

[ABR]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

Listening to a car that revs close to 9000rpm is pure sex.

Well, if you fun of high pitching noise, that will be perfect fit. Low purr of my 330i is music for my ears.

Nothing personal, I just so sick of it after 5 years of ownership, I can't stand it anymore. it is not sex it is dentist drilling machine.

[ward]

Originally Posted by obLu

Nope, we of all people know how expensive maintaining a modern BMW out of warranty really is. It's not the mechanicals, those are a piece of cake.

It's all the electrical gremlins. "my idrive is doing funky stuff", "bmw assist button doesn't work after sept software update", "I found my car with all the doors unlocked in the morning" etc etc.

If I only had 20k to spend on a car, chances are REAL good I don't have 3-4k a year to spend in extra repairs. I just want a fun car, that I don't have to spend a lot of time or money on. I'd even go out on a limb and generalize (because that's where I was in life when I was spending $20k on a car) that that person would be working hourly and couldn't afford a lot of BS time taking the car into the shop.

I probably would've kept an e46 out of warranty, but I doubt I'll be keeping an e90 not on warranty. Too many integrated electrical components and BMW ain't known for their outstanding electronics.

have you had some issues or something? been driving BMW's long?

I've only had BMW's for over 10 years and put
115,000 on an 87 325 (that started with 76K miles)
45,000 on a 1995 M3 (that started with 63K miles)

never had a repair more than 500 bucks (fuel pump on M3)
never spent even close to 3K a year on maintenance
my 10 year average on BMW maint is probably more like a grand per year.

a 3-4 year old BMW if taken care of is far from being a money pit that's in the shop weekly draining you of thousands each month

[obLu]

have you had some issues or something? been driving BMW's long?

Two e46's. 99 328i and an 01 330cic. 328i blew two intake vanos control modules within 3mo, if it'd been out of pocket, each repair would've been over $1100. And then one fuel pump on the 99. Traded it in after 37k for the 01.

330cic had two top motors blow, because of the roof binding. Don't have any idea what the two motors and a new top assembly would've run me. Also, that was the infamous year for the aux fan overheating issue. Went through 3 of those, but that's not a fair assesment for out of warranty repairs.

I'll concede the point on non-electronics era (the point at which BMW went electronic everything apesh*t) BMWs. When it's just straight mechanical repairs, the cost of maintaining them is about the same as any car. Parts are marginally more expensive, labor rates are a smidge higher.

But once you get to electrical gremlins, I think the cost is going to start sky rocketing.

It can add up quick though, my buddy's put over 3k into his 01 330 this year. Rotors and pads all around, auto tranny (so much for "lifetime-fill") self destructed at 67k miles, and then control arm bushings were shot.

[epiphone3]

MotorTrend scored 67.8 MPH on the slalom for the 330i.... in fact, that was a Rear-wheel drive record for them!

[epiphone3]

Originally Posted by obLu

Two e46's. 99 328i and an 01 330cic. 328i blew two intake vanos control modules within 3mo, if it'd been out of pocket, each repair would've been over $1100. And then one fuel pump on the 99. Traded it in after 37k for the 01.

330cic had two top motors blow, because of the roof binding. Don't have any idea what the two motors and a new top assembly would've run me. Also, that was the infamous year for the aux fan overheating issue. Went through 3 of those, but that's not a fair assesment for out of warranty repairs.

I'll concede the point on non-electronics era (the point at which BMW went electronic everything apesh*t) BMWs. When it's just straight mechanical repairs, the cost of maintaining them is about the same as any car. Parts are marginally more expensive, labor rates are a smidge higher.

But once you get to electrical gremlins, I think the cost is going to start sky rocketing.

It can add up quick though, my buddy's put over 3k into his 01 330 this year. Rotors and pads all around, auto tranny (so much for "lifetime-fill") self destructed at 67k miles, and then control arm bushings were shot.

Your buddy should not have paid for control arm bushings as BMW redesigned the control arms and replaced them on warranty for any 2001 or earlier E46 (i.e. pre-facelift)

[ek9hatch00]

how the hell are you guys gonna compare a civic to a bmw...2 different kind of car...ones a luxury sedan and ones a somewhat performance coupe...for those who think that the civic looks and feel cheap...ever wonder why it costs less?..if you're those people that like luxury cars and wanna sit in the old man's leather seats...thats good...dont have to go around talking about how honda is cheap..i own 4 hondas and i like every single one of them..never had a problem with any. if you dont like the high revving engine...fine...but for a 4 cyclinder engine...its pretty fast, can out perform the 325/330 anyday

[ABR]

" own 4 hondas and i like every single one of them..never had a problem with any"
You must be selling them before they falling apart. But, hey, you like Honda's all power to you.

My experience wasn't that great. I spent 5k on repairs this year alone. So much for top quality.

[lux.sh]

typical cocky bmw attitude going on here. there is a reason why everyone hates bmw owners.

Originally Posted by ward

What's not worth it is paying 20 grand for a honda when you could have had a BMW for the same money, and taken less of a depreciation hit.

Ward, go buy a copy of consumer magazine.
Check out the reliability issues. Older ones. see if anybody would
want one of those used bmw as a reliable daily driver for next few years.
Not that Im saying honda will be the best choice, but jesus..
BMW is not the god of cars. its not a solution to everything. its no where near it.

[SCA]

FWD and no torque.

[lux.sh]

Originally Posted by SCA

FWD...

agree. RWD baby! :rocks:

[ward]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

typical cocky bmw attitude going on here. there is a reason why everyone hates bmw owners.



Ward, go buy a copy of consumer magazine.
Check out the reliability issues. Older ones. see if anybody would
want one of those used bmw as a reliable daily driver for next few years.
Not that Im saying honda will be the best choice, but jesus..
BMW is not the god of cars. its not a solution to everything. its no where near it.

I'm going to go ahead and trust my personal experience over consumer reports. I've spent 8 years in my 87 finally selling it when it was 16 years old, then I drove my 95 for 2 years selling it when it was 10 years old. I've logged about 160000 miles in the 2 cars and had no issues

I would have ZERO problems driving a couple year old BMW if cash was an issue.

i see Oblu had a couple nasty problems, but they were both covered by warranty. Given it would have been nasty to have to foot the bill for either repair though. I've only recently been able to afford new BMW's and from what I can tell there seems to almost be a "break in" period where you may have a few initial issues, but then the car's great for a long long time.

I'm not advising somebody who's broke to get some 93 E36 with 225,985 miles with a poor maintenance record.

If you take car of the car (or the previous owner does) it will last you well over 100K miles, it's been my experience that while japanese cars may be a bit less trouble free to 100k, BMW's are better from 100k up.

if you get your car buying advice from consumer reports rather than driving what you want you should stay away from BMW

if you think a 3 year old BMW with 30-40K miles is going to ruin you financially you're wrong (if you buy carefully and have the car inspected by in INDEPENDANT shop you trust)

I realize I'm probably speaking to the wrong crowd here, most folks that have the cash to throw down on a new BMW wouldn't even consider a used car no matter what the advantages.