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      10-12-2017, 07:43 PM   #133
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[quote=Chappers 71;22299016]What you said was " I liken this behaviour to the people who fly the rebel flag & says it's about heritage, not racism. Either they are lying or ignorant Correct, I was drawing a comparison. My feelings were not reflected in that statement.
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      10-12-2017, 07:44 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
Slightly different topic than I was addressing, but I will nonetheless respond with this clarification: You can't conflate a 1st Amendment "right"* with economic decision-making. A person can take a knee even if it's against their employment agreement, if they are willing to suffer the economic consequences. That is their economic choice. We may think it's a bad choice, but if that's what they believe in, then who am I to tell them they can't do it?

Similar to the NFL: If the NFL decides that it is not in their interest for the kneeling to continue, then they will put a kibosh on it. For now, they don't believe that's the case. I would also add the following: current NFL ratings aren't the end-all, be-all. The NFL also has to consider their future product as well. Remember, about 70% [edited] of NFL players are black. These are the best football players in the world. Like any company, the NFL has to consider their employees, not just their customers. If the employees decide to go on strike over this issue, the NFL will probably suffer even more. Worse than having to watch a few people kneel during the anthem is putting an inferior product on the field. The XFL is a cautionary tale on that experiment.


* In another thread, I argued that free speech isn't technically a right per se because the 1st Amendment only guarantees non-abridgment by Congress (and state government via the 14th Amendment, I believe) of free speech.
Agreed.
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      10-12-2017, 07:49 PM   #135
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One thing I'm noticing that is a bit disturbing...

I can understand people protesting against inequality, that's fine, it's their right. The football players are adults and can do what they choose, even if some don't agree with how they are going about it.

What I see as disturbing are the kids not standing for the pledge in school, the high school and middle school kids not standing for the anthem during games, etc. What message are we sending to kids? Most of these kids have no clue about politics, they are just learning from their parents what to do, and the parents are using them to send a message.

I can't imagine that raising a generation of kids who are taught to hate America from a young age will be beneficial to our future.
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      10-12-2017, 07:54 PM   #136
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^ labeled by classmates during an already difficult stretch of one's life. I don't get it.

Stephen A Smith is claiming Trump has won round one of this 'event'.
I'll go back to my gut telling me trump is after the commissioner. Well on his way.
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      10-12-2017, 08:04 PM   #137
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[quote=MGM135is;22299205]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chappers 71 View Post
What you said was " I liken this behaviour to the people who fly the rebel flag & says it's about heritage, not racism. Either they are lying or ignorant
Correct, I was drawing a comparison. My feelings were not reflected in that statement.
I haven't specifically mentioned your feelings
But it would appear from your post that you are stating that anyone flying the 'rebel' flag is either a racist or ignorant
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      10-12-2017, 08:05 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTinline-six View Post
One thing I'm noticing that is a bit disturbing...

I can understand people protesting against inequality, that's fine, it's their right. The football players are adults and can do what they choose, even if some don't agree with how they are going about it.

What I see as disturbing are the kids not standing for the pledge in school, the high school and middle school kids not standing for the anthem during games, etc. What message are we sending to kids? Most of these kids have no clue about politics, they are just learning from their parents what to do, and the parents are using them to send a message.

I can't imagine that raising a generation of kids who are taught to hate America from a young age will be beneficial to our future.
Not standing for the flag in school is not equal to hating America. It's called exercising your rights as an American.
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      10-12-2017, 08:20 PM   #139
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      10-12-2017, 08:20 PM   #140
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[quote=Chappers 71;22299287]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MGM135is View Post

I haven't specifically mentioned your feelings
But it would appear from your post that you are stating that anyone flying the 'rebel' flag is either a racist or ignorant
So let’s call it opinion? I don’t have negative feelings about it, but obviously a lot of people do. I loved the Dukes of Hazzard and the General Lee.
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      10-12-2017, 08:37 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTinline-six View Post
One thing I'm noticing that is a bit disturbing...

I can understand people protesting against inequality, that's fine, it's their right. The football players are adults and can do what they choose, even if some don't agree with how they are going about it.

What I see as disturbing are the kids not standing for the pledge in school, the high school and middle school kids not standing for the anthem during games, etc. What message are we sending to kids? Most of these kids have no clue about politics, they are just learning from their parents what to do, and the parents are using them to send a message.

I can't imagine that raising a generation of kids who are taught to hate America from a young age will be beneficial to our future.
That the country they are growing up in is not doing well right now?

That blind belief is not the be all and end all?

That there is a way to peacefully protest to raise awareness of an issue to try and get it to change?

Not standing for the anthem is not saying you hate America, it could be viewed as you loving America but expressing your concern about its current climate.
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      10-12-2017, 08:44 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by SumBMWGuy View Post
Not standing for the flag in school is not equal to hating America. It's called exercising your rights as an American.
You are missing the point. Of course not standing for the flag is exercising rights, no shit.

My point was kids are being influenced by parents to have a negative view of their country by standing in protest. Ask any 8 year old kid about politics and their opinion, they don't know what it all means. All it does is associate the flag /pledge/anthem with negativity, and encourage division.

Put 10 kids in a room where 3 of them refuse to stand and see if the others become interested in why they are acting differently.
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      10-12-2017, 08:47 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaaaah View Post
That the country they are growing up in is not doing well right now?

That blind belief is not the be all and end all?

That there is a way to peacefully protest to raise awareness of an issue to try and get it to change?

Not standing for the anthem is not saying you hate America, it could be viewed as you loving America but expressing your concern about its current climate.
What will refusing to stand for the pledge in a classroom of 8 year old students accomplish as far as change? All it will do is create division. Look at the NFL, I wouldn't exactly say that their efforts created unity among most of the people involved.
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      10-12-2017, 09:34 PM   #144
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For those of you saying Eminem is only into politics now have not listened to his music at all. He had quite a few things to say about the Bush administration and his music has changed so much from back then and now. He is still relevant, his last album hit in 2013 so it's not like he's out of the game and he's done tracks for films(hell his songs were used to promote the COD franchise and are still used to promote movies). For those of you saying you're tired of celebs are forgetting that the POTUS is one, and has something to the tune of 100+ works in which he either acted as himself(see Fresh Prince or Home Alone 2) or was involved in the production. And if you voted for him, deal with it when your party has elected one other "tough guy" actor to the nation's highest office.
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      10-12-2017, 10:48 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
You don't even live here, don't try and tell me what kneeling during my national anthem means. You have no idea.

What actual veteran told them to kneel? I only see the veterans that go against team decisions and stand instead because it is RESPECTFUL to their brothers in arms. Standing for the flag is showing respect for the people that GAVE them their freedoms. Kneeling is just being a shit person and disregarding the people that died so that they could have these rights.

You can't turn the argument around. If you do then you don't understand our employment system (vastly different than Europe). These people are overpaid to entertain, not to make political statements. They decide they want to make a political statement their employer doesn't agree with while working (due to monetary reasons or personal belief) they should be able to cut them off.

You should not be able to harm your employer just because you want to protest. I realize that is not how it works in Europe (I worked in the Netherlands and the thought and system is pretty backwards), but in the US we protect our providers. Same reason I don't carry a gun to work, it is my right to carry, but it is my employers right to fire me for breaking their rules.
I didn't tell you what it means, I said I will never understand how silently kneeling as a form of protest can be viewed as disrespectful and I would still say that even if I was born and bred in Alabama. You obviously disagree and that's fine.
As for the veteran, it was Nate Boyer, a retired Green Beret who made the suggestion that Kaepernick should kneel. There's also been a lot of veterans who have come out and supported the protest as well as how they are doing it.

If I can't turn the argument around then you will have to come up with a better reason than that it's not their job to make political statements or that their employers could be hurt/should fire them. Because AFAIK what they do for a living or how much money they make has nothing to do with anything and the vast majority of the NFL owners (several of them Trump supporters who even came out against Trump on this question) stood behind their players right to protest, even joining them on the field during the anthem.
You must certainly be allowed to peacefully protest in a way that could potentially hurt your employer if said employer has ok'd your protest?
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      10-12-2017, 11:29 PM   #146
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It’s simple really. They have a right to kneel. People have a right to disagree and express that disagreement.
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      10-13-2017, 12:26 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
You don't even live here, don't try and tell me what kneeling during my national anthem means. You have no idea.

What actual veteran told them to kneel? I only see the veterans that go against team decisions and stand instead because it is RESPECTFUL to their brothers in arms. Standing for the flag is showing respect for the people that GAVE them their freedoms. Kneeling is just being a shit person and disregarding the people that died so that they could have these rights.

You can't turn the argument around. If you do then you don't understand our employment system (vastly different than Europe). These people are overpaid to entertain, not to make political statements. They decide they want to make a political statement their employer doesn't agree with while working (due to monetary reasons or personal belief) they should be able to cut them off.

You should not be able to harm your employer just because you want to protest. I realize that is not how it works in Europe (I worked in the Netherlands and the thought and system is pretty backwards), but in the US we protect our providers. Same reason I don't carry a gun to work, it is my right to carry, but it is my employers right to fire me for breaking their rules.
Lol you have no clue wtf your talking about obviously.
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      10-13-2017, 01:43 AM   #148
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Why would any sane person give 2 sh*ts about what a high school dropout with a dirty mouth thinks about Trump, or any other political issue? Read this trash and ask yourself what he has to contribute to society:

http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/11/he..._medium=Social
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      10-13-2017, 06:05 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTinline-six View Post
What will refusing to stand for the pledge in a classroom of 8 year old students accomplish as far as change? All it will do is create division. Look at the NFL, I wouldn't exactly say that their efforts created unity among most of the people involved.
There is a reason the Scholastic political survey is one of the most accurate at knowing what candidate is going to win the election. Kids absorb what they are exposed to every day at home and politics is a big talking point between parents.

The only reason kneeling is creating division is because of America's North Korean levels of country devotion where if you say anything against the flag/country you are immediately shamed, insulted, threatened etc. I've received incredibly hateful looks for not reciting the pledge of allegiance as I am not a US citizen, though I stand quietly and respectfully while it is being said.

The kneeling protest was about African American rights, including their right to not be murdered in the street by police. It was never a protest against America as a whole until people made it that.

It's amazing how easy it is to draw parallels between highly nationalistic dictatorships and the US.
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      10-13-2017, 06:11 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
You don't even live here, don't try and tell me what kneeling during my national anthem means. You have no idea.

What actual veteran told them to kneel? I only see the veterans that go against team decisions and stand instead because it is RESPECTFUL to their brothers in arms. Standing for the flag is showing respect for the people that GAVE them their freedoms. Kneeling is just being a shit person and disregarding the people that died so that they could have these rights.

You can't turn the argument around. If you do then you don't understand our employment system (vastly different than Europe). These people are overpaid to entertain, not to make political statements. They decide they want to make a political statement their employer doesn't agree with while working (due to monetary reasons or personal belief) they should be able to cut them off.

You should not be able to harm your employer just because you want to protest. I realize that is not how it works in Europe (I worked in the Netherlands and the thought and system is pretty backwards), but in the US we protect our providers. Same reason I don't carry a gun to work, it is my right to carry, but it is my employers right to fire me for breaking their rules.
If you want to show respect veterans, how about you support them after they return from war. Provide for them when they can't work due to PTSD. Donate to the charities who help them for this. Work to prevent such wars happening so they don't have to live through life a shattered person.

Standing for the anthem does NOTHING TANGIBLE to improve a veteran's life. Do you think the homeless veteran on the street who flinches at every loud noise because he thinks it's a bomb going off gives a shit about if you stand for the anthem or not? Do you think the Vietnam vets who returned from the war "failures" thought to themselves, all is well because people stand for the anthem?

Standing for the anthem with so many veterans in need is no better than "thoughts and prayers".

Ignoring the fact that the kneeling protest was actually about of course...
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      10-13-2017, 07:13 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTinline-six View Post
One thing I'm noticing that is a bit disturbing...

I can understand people protesting against inequality, that's fine, it's their right. The football players are adults and can do what they choose, even if some don't agree with how they are going about it.

What I see as disturbing are the kids not standing for the pledge in school, the high school and middle school kids not standing for the anthem during games, etc. What message are we sending to kids? Most of these kids have no clue about politics, they are just learning from their parents what to do, and the parents are using them to send a message.

I can't imagine that raising a generation of kids who are taught to hate America from a young age will be beneficial to our future.
i agree with you. going back to grade school everyone would pledge and it didnt matter whether you were chinese, mexican or pakistan every1 would stand up. Its shame. My parents migrated from Colombia in late 70s, I was born here which makes me first generation. By the late 80s, they were citizens of the US.

we are so fucked as a nation,
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      10-13-2017, 09:41 AM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kprocivic View Post
Lol you have no clue wtf your talking about obviously.
Great argument. You're all aces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaaaah View Post
If you want to show respect veterans, how about you support them after they return from war. Provide for them when they can't work due to PTSD. Donate to the charities who help them for this. Work to prevent such wars happening so they don't have to live through life a shattered person.

Standing for the anthem does NOTHING TANGIBLE to improve a veteran's life. Do you think the homeless veteran on the street who flinches at every loud noise because he thinks it's a bomb going off gives a shit about if you stand for the anthem or not? Do you think the Vietnam vets who returned from the war "failures" thought to themselves, all is well because people stand for the anthem?

Standing for the anthem with so many veterans in need is no better than "thoughts and prayers".

Ignoring the fact that the kneeling protest was actually about of course...
I do give to veteran help organizations as well as strongly support veteran owned and operated companies. Supporting the ones that come back alive and honoring/showing respect to the ones that didn't are two different things. Of course honor and respect aren't tangible, I never said they were.
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      10-13-2017, 11:05 AM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTinline-six View Post
You are missing the point. Of course not standing for the flag is exercising rights, no shit.

My point was kids are being influenced by parents to have a negative view of their country by standing in protest. Ask any 8 year old kid about politics and their opinion, they don't know what it all means. All it does is associate the flag /pledge/anthem with negativity, and encourage division.

Put 10 kids in a room where 3 of them refuse to stand and see if the others become interested in why they are acting differently.
I'll repeat my words ... not standing for the flag is not equal to hating America.
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      10-13-2017, 11:39 AM   #154
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so the next idiot that wants to express their emotions or protest in his/her way to burn the flag...its going to be OK?
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