128 vs audi A3 impressions.

[Raine]

I was actually deciding between a GTI or the 128i and I realized that no one I know would take the GTI seriously since it looks like a toy car - hatchbacks have the image of being "lesser" =( But I would've definitely went w/ the A3 since it actually looks pretty good for a hatchback.

Plus, the 128i has the option of red leather and black interior which looks striking w/ AW exterior + CF parts.

[gnat]

Originally Posted by bbbradley

This has since changed then?

My understanding is that the e90 xDrive cars have the same suspension setup (and height?) as the non-sport plain i cars. The sport i cars get the improved bits which I believe lowers them a bit.

I've trounced a Viper, a 911, and an STI in my C-Stock Miata, yet I have no delusions a Miata is a faster car than those cars. Given an equal level of skill, then the car and prep takes a larger role, but driver is still the king.

That result doesn't surprise me a bit actually (maybe the STI) and I think you would find that even driven by the same driver (assuming he was competent in all 4) you would still see the same results.

The Viper is just too powerful and too quick to break loose at low speeds like you find at an Auto-X and it isn't exactly wonderful at tight turns. So keeping it under control is going to rob it of it's main asset.

The 911 is purpose built for road racing, not the Auto-X and, while still very capable (especially the C4), shows it. 911s are excellent at taking high speeds into corners and breaking later, but aren't as quick to get back up to speed (they win in the corners). A good Auto-X course doesn't give it the chance to rebuild it's momentum. The C4 does perform a bit better (there is a local guy that runs a 996 C2 and my wife let him take her 996 C4 out, he was surprised how much better it handled than his and it showed in the times too).

The STI might be a bit of a surprise given it's short wheel base and nimbleness, but my guess is that was an issue of the driver staying on boost. I haven't driven one, but my understanding is that they have a pretty significant turbo lag so if he couldn't stay on boost he wouldn't have all that power. This could as easily be a driver (not knowing how) or a car (not being able to) issue or a bit of both.

The Miata, on the other hand, is a small, light weight, and nimble little car that is easy (in knowledgeable hands) to throw around, so I'm not surprised that it would perform well. Yes, in a straight line or road course those other cars would spit it out, but that's the beauty of Auto-X, power isn't king.

Nothing is more fun (to me) than watching the "big bad" M3 boys come out and get beat by "slower" cars and not understanding why.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Raine

I was actually deciding between a GTI or the 128i and I realized that no one I know would take the GTI seriously since it looks like a toy car - hatchbacks have the image of being "lesser" =( But I would've definitely went w/ the A3 since it actually looks pretty good for a hatchback.

Plus, the 128i has the option of red leather and black interior which looks striking w/ AW exterior + CF parts.

We in the UK must view cars like the GTI a bit different to the American market. Over here the GTI is a cult car, like the M3 and the Mini Cooper, so no one really views it as "lesser" because of the fact it's a hatch and a Volkswagen, but I can understand you not picking it if you didn't feel comfortable with what others might think.

It's a shame the Scirocco isn't available in the US because it's one hatch that everyone classes as a up market product.

[fugly1]

Originally Posted by footie

We in the UK must view cars like the GTI a bit different to the American market. Over here the GTI is a cult car, like the M3 and the Mini Cooper, so no one really views it as "lesser" because of the fact it's a hatch and a Volkswagen, but I can understand you not picking it if you didn't feel comfortable with what others might think.

It's a shame the Scirocco isn't available in the US because it's one hatch that everyone classes as a up market product.

LOL, most Americans dislike hatchbacks for whatever reason. The GTI definitely has a cultural heritage in Europe that does not carry across the pond to most American consumers.

[Rawhide]

Yeah I don't know why that is. Honestly, I've never really liked the traditional hatch body style either.

As soon as I see one I think "mom's grocery-getter". I realize that's totally unrealistic as there are some smokin' hot hatches out there (like the GTI), but for whatever reason that's the perception. I'm guessing a lot of other Americans have the same knee jerk reaction when they see one too, some kind of cultural meme left over from the 80's maybe? I dunno.

[ManMachine]

Originally Posted by bbbradley

MINI is cheaper than an A3, and everyone knows it is just a FWD BMW. The 128 and the A3 are similar in price; I'd say BMW has two cars in the "poor man's" segment.

Originally Posted by Rawhide

I always get a kick out of the phrase "poor man's" this or that. Especially when we're talking $30,000 + cars.

That's nowhere near poor.

Originally Posted by Rawhide

I guess when I hear the word "poor" I think of people I've seen in other countries that can't afford shoes, not someone driving around in a new Audi A3 or BMW 128i (or Hyundai Accent for that matter).

Originally Posted by ManMachine

Audi reliability continues to be an issue - although BMW isn't that great either.

Practically speaking, A3 is a poor man's family entry luxury car. BMW simply doesn't care about that market in the U.S. yet.

Note that I'm saying "family entry luxury car". 1 series in the U.S. doesn't really serve a "family" as commonly defined as 4 people. MINI is a niche brand, but the brand is considered a "cool" brand, not "luxury" brand. I'm saying "poor" as relatively speaking, these are really middle class folks who care about the brand image, vs. the rich man's "family entry luxury vehicle" such as A4 avant or 3 series wagon.

[Garduna]

Originally Posted by footie

It's a shame the Scirocco isn't available in the US because it's one hatch that everyone classes as a up market product.

Oh how I wish the Scirocco was available in the North American Market

[bimmer74]

Originally Posted by fugly1

LOL, most Americans dislike hatchbacks for whatever reason. The GTI definitely has a cultural heritage in Europe that does not carry across the pond to most American consumers.

Yes, American don't like hatchbacks, yet are crazy about overgrown and overweight station wagons, aka SUV's. I for one would get the GTI just to be different if I couldn't afford the one series.

[pDz]

Originally Posted by bimmer74

Yes, American don't like hatchbacks, yet are crazy about overgrown and overweight station wagons, aka SUV's. I for one would get the GTI just to be different if I couldn't afford the one series.

no thanks.

after awhile, the 60% weight over the front wheels plus the front wheel drive get old.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by gnat

In completely non-scientific "studies" I find I get more out of the e30ix and e90xi than I do their i counterparts (haven't driven 36s or 46s). The weight balance is a bit better and the traction (in corners) is noticeably better.

I have also watched a stock e90 328xi out perform a bunch of stock 335i cars at an Auto-X. At the same event a 335xi (stock) out performed everything (including the tuned and modded 335s) except the Z3 Ms and Minis. Both cars were able to do better (at least partly) due to the AWD system. In both cases, even though they were "sport models" they didn't have the sport suspension like their counter parts.

I recognize neither of those cases is good empirical knowledge, but my point is that I wouldn't be so quick to discount xDrive as not being a performance option. Yes there are hits to performance due to the extra mass of the car (both overall as well as the drive line itself), but approaching the edge is where the AWD systems come into their own and show their real worth.


My intent has not been to say xDrive is better than Quattro. I just don't have the personal experience to judge as I haven't spent significant time driving one (especially in a manner where the AWD makes a difference).

If I was going to get an Audi (which as I said previously I keep trying to convince myself to do) Quattro is on the top of my list of features. But at the same time, if I'm buying a 997 the C4 (or the Turbo) is the only option in my book and xDrive is a must have on a BWM that has that option.

In my driving experience, I don't like X drive compared to quattro.
Between the RWD 3 and X drive I prefer the feel of the RWD as well.
The X drive 335i has tested a bit quicker to 60 than the RWD, but that's what off the line traction can do.

With SUV's I don't consider them as performance vehicles. Most have a way to lock the differentials as well, so that gives them an edge in poor traction conditions, but not for any performance driving.

I'm not saying X drive is bad per se, it's just that the BMW feel is not there.
Some cars can put up good numbers, but some of those cars can also make it a chore to achieve those numbers. It's not just how fast you can go, but how well you can go fast.

Road and Track did performance review some time ago, maybe around 2006 or 7. I'm sure you can find it online if you want.
It was comparison between a large number of AWD performance sedans including the A4, 3 series, Subi B-Spec and some others.

[footie]

Originally Posted by pDz

no thanks.

after awhile, the 60% weight over the front wheels plus the front wheel drive get old.

I think you will find that the Scirocco R which is fwd like the GTI is exceptionally quicker both in a straight line and on the track.

Here's an example, similar output but one is fwd and the other rwd.

http://www.fastestlaps.com/compariso...cirocco_R.html

[Rawhide]

Damn that Scirocco is hot hot hot!

The hell is wrong with VW not selling that in the USA???

[bbbradley]

Originally Posted by ManMachine

Note that I'm saying "family entry luxury car". 1 series in the U.S. doesn't really serve a "family" as commonly defined as 4 people. MINI is a niche brand, but the brand is considered a "cool" brand, not "luxury" brand. I'm saying "poor" as relatively speaking, these are really middle class folks who care about the brand image, vs. the rich man's "family entry luxury vehicle" such as A4 avant or 3 series wagon.

The 1-series can seat a family and is touted as a four-seater, there are people who put child seats in the back. To say it is not a family car is your opinion, and it is not shared by all. If my family has 1 child the 1-series might well work perfectly.

The MINI brand rides on the BMW coat tails for its near luxury aspirations from the buyers, just as the A4 Avant and 3 wagon does for the higher priced BMW models. I think there are just as many brand buyers for BMW/Audi as there are for MINI.

Back to the A3/128 - If exclusivity is a desire I see probably 50 A3s for every 1 1-series. The 1s just don't seem to have sold well in this area, whereas the 3...you can't swing a dead rat without hitting one. ...if swinging a dead rat is your thing.

[gnat]

Originally Posted by RPM90

In my driving experience, I don't like X drive compared to quattro.

I wasn't arguing that since I don't have the knowledge (e.g. never really driven the Quattro). I'm just defending xDrive as being a performance oriented AWD system though not necessarily the best.

Between the RWD 3 and X drive I prefer the feel of the RWD as well.

I agree that there is a definite feel difference between the two and the xDrive seems to remove some of the raw feel, but I find that it removes the edge off the power and focuses more on the connection to the ground. I obviously prefer that feel myself

With SUV's I don't consider them as performance vehicles.

Not sure where SUVs came into this, but yes with few exceptions they aren't performance (in the power/speed/handling arena) vehicles. The best (Land Rover, Jeep, etc..) have an entirely different design to their systems which is decidedly not for performance driving.

It's not just how fast you can go, but how well you can go fast.

And that sums up my whole attachment to performance focused AWD systems

[AW128i]

Until I picked up my 128i a few weeks ago, I have never owned anything other than a VW or Audi product. I've had just about every drivetrain and chassis combination that VW/Audi makes so I feel I am fairly judge them overall. That being said, there are definitely areas where the 1-series lags behind VW/Audi products such as the (yawn) interior. That being said, even as the "lowly" 128i, the 1-series is a sweet ride and I'm extremely happy with my choice to part with the VW/Audi family for now. I will however argue that for the money, there is no better new car than a VW, be it a base model Golf or the GTI. But, I think I may have permanently broken my streak of new cars with the purchase of my CPO 128i that I feel like I practically stole from the dealer for significantly less than I would pay for a new GTI, and I got better handling dynamics, a better warranty, and a little more "class" to go along with my purchase. After this, I think it would be hard for me to go to a similarly-priced new car because the overall experience just wouldn't be quite up to par.

And as far as the Audi A3 goes, it's an overpriced GTI and at this point, it's also on an older chassis than the GTI. On top of that, it is and looks like a wagon whereas the 5-door GTI isn't/doesn't, in my opinion.

Doesn't matter, BMW sells less 1-series cars in the U.S. than MINI sells total cars in the U.S. so I'd rather have this much more "rare" car

[JimmyT]

Originally Posted by Rawhide

Damn that Scirocco is hot hot hot!

The hell is wrong with VW not selling that in the USA???

cheap Jettas made for the NA market, not making a profit in the NA market in the last 8 years, being indecisive and spending more money on Katy Perry to promote a product rather than design an inexpensive car that will compete with the next Focus and Cruze...I could go on and on, but VAG and VoNA seem to be lacking in enthusiast making decisions and want to sell 800,000 cars a year in the NA market. Some people at VoNA were fired over stating the reason the Scirocco didn't come to the states was the threat of brand cannibalization of GTI sales. Look at the still born decision making process to bring the Golf R to the states. By the time that car makes it (if it ever does) it will be competing with improved Mini Cooper S, Ford Focus with I 4 ecoboost, the next incarnation of improved Subie STI, and chevy cruze with high output motor and suspension. Tough to sell an overpriced hatch in this market when you give the competition a 2 year head start on your products.

If the S3 was available in the US, then that would be a game changer for me. I have wanted one since trying to follow a 2000 model through the Brenner Pass in the summer of 2000. Great car compared to the PoS ford probe I was driving, and the reason I started buying GTIs.

Sorry for the rant, but VoA decisions and the lack of performance reality compared to advertising promise on my 2008 R32 are the predominant reasons I drive a 2011 135i w/ DCT.

[Raine]

Originally Posted by AW128i

Until I picked up my 128i a few weeks ago, I have never owned anything other than a VW or Audi product. I've had just about every drivetrain and chassis combination that VW/Audi makes so I feel I am fairly judge them overall. That being said, there are definitely areas where the 1-series lags behind VW/Audi products such as the (yawn) interior. That being said, even as the "lowly" 128i, the 1-series is a sweet ride and I'm extremely happy with my choice to part with the VW/Audi family for now. I will however argue that for the money, there is no better new car than a VW, be it a base model Golf or the GTI. But, I think I may have permanently broken my streak of new cars with the purchase of my CPO 128i that I feel like I practically stole from the dealer for significantly less than I would pay for a new GTI, and I got better handling dynamics, a better warranty, and a little more "class" to go along with my purchase. After this, I think it would be hard for me to go to a similarly-priced new car because the overall experience just wouldn't be quite up to par.

And as far as the Audi A3 goes, it's an overpriced GTI and at this point, it's also on an older chassis than the GTI. On top of that, it is and looks like a wagon whereas the 5-door GTI isn't/doesn't, in my opinion.

Doesn't matter, BMW sells less 1-series cars in the U.S. than MINI sells total cars in the U.S. so I'd rather have this much more "rare" car

CPO is the way to go