aFe Dual cone? Why nobody using?

[AWD2RWD]

I saw a random company on ebay who made a K&N system similar to the Injen and they claim 10HP dyno'd also. IDK why these cars would be so much different than my Eov 9, im surprised that so many mods have no gains. catback on an Evo certainly has gains with a tune, and I've seen some intakes on my Evo push as much as 15-20whp with just an intake and NO TUNE. IDK why replacing a stock restrictive muffler with no muffler or a sport muffler would result in no gains? Or how getting an intake that flows much better than stock would result in no gain. Not arguing with anybody just surprising to a semi-newb who came from a world where anything you changed had significant gains that could be measured.

[Brandon26pdx]

Originally Posted by naorgil

Why do I see very few using the aFe dual cone intake? They claim 27hp/34tq to the wheels yet every other intake seems to claim 15hp/15tq at the very most.

Is their numbers a complete lie? Do their parts cause damage? Why do I hear/see so little of their dual cone intake?

Do the parts cause damage? Yes and no. No, nothing catastrophic, but yes, open style K&N cone intakes do let slightly more dirt into the engine, which does your engine no favors in the long run. My take is that they're not worth the cool sound or slight power gains because of this.

For consistency, open intakes are no good either. Stock airbox draws cool air through the front grills and keeps the engine happy most of the time. Open intakes draw hot air out of the engine bay in idle and low speed driving conditions and make for poor drivability and heat soak.

An ideally designed high performance intake would use a closed box similar to the stock one, and use a larger sized OEM style paper filter for better CFM capacity without the filtration being compromised. Something like this would cost a good bit of money for questionable gains though. (Somebody made a fancy-schmancy OEM style Hi-po intake for the N54 with a carbon fiber air box, but I forget who it was. It was spendy though I remember.)

[VALAS135i]

Originally Posted by naorgil

I saw a random company on ebay who made a K&N system similar to the Injen and they claim 10HP dyno'd also. IDK why these cars would be so much different than my Eov 9, im surprised that so many mods have no gains. catback on an Evo certainly has gains with a tune, and I've seen some intakes on my Evo push as much as 15-20whp with just an intake and NO TUNE. IDK why replacing a stock restrictive muffler with no muffler or a sport muffler would result in no gains? Or how getting an intake that flows much better than stock would result in no gain. Not arguing with anybody just surprising to a semi-newb who came from a world where anything you changed had significant gains that could be measured.

The reason that you don't get much gains on these cars for basic bold ons minus DP's and FMIC is the the OEM components are not that restrictive. The stock catback flows decent as well as the stock air box. That is why people are not seeing gains from intakes and catbacks.

[thez99]

I wonder if anyone realizes that with a turbocharged engine its not all about intake air temps...cmon. What is more important with an intake on a FI engine is FLOW. The turbos suck air at high velocity to create their boost, turbos will run hot regardless, its just how it works, lowering the intake air temps a few degrees wont do shit, however relieving the restriction of airflow from the intakes into the manifold WILL do something. Its not just about HP numbers, etc. its about allowing the turbo's to operate faster, spool faster and more efficiently.

If you are worried about engine temps, mod your intercooler, again, the engine is TURBOCHARGED. The main cause of engine overheating and heatsoak is a small restrictive FMIC, or the same with the downpipes. 99% of the time it has NOTHING to do with air intake temps...

Lemme break it down bout the Afe..its the same product as the BMS DCI, however it has more piping and bends, therefore more airflow restriction, just as their new single filter does as well, pulling all the air for TWO intakes thru one filter with two stemmed pipes is MORE restrictive. The simplest version (bms) for our car is by far the best option if you're looking to go this route. Afe just thinks that if they slap a "heatshield" on they can charge 4 times as much and say they make all kinds of HP improvements but this wont happen.

If you want a DCI which theres no reason not too, go with BMS or stick with the stock box. I am installing mine along with an HPF FMIC to lower engine temps, therefore I am clearing the intake airflow restriction and as well as the flow restriction from the intercooler, hence cooling the boosted air, as well as allowing more air to flow into the engine = best function for the money imho.

Flame me all you want, but this is as technical as I will get as I am no engine techy, but I know enough about how FI engines run versus NA ones.

[RnmEvo9]

Dci sound really nice, but for everyday drivability it does suffer compared to the stock box especially in these hot summer temps. I can't speak whenever it cools down, but I am pretty content with my stock box. I'm pretty stoked that my car pulled out about 370rwhp with just a jb4, helix fmic and raceland downpipes in 90+ degree weather.

[RealityDesign]

Originally Posted by Brandon26pdx

Do the parts cause damage? Yes and no. No, nothing catastrophic, but yes, open style K&N cone intakes do let slightly more dirt into the engine, which does your engine no favors in the long run. My take is that they're not worth the cool sound or slight power gains because of this.

This depends entirely on your mods. On an otherwise stock car, sure, you're going to see 5whp gains. Running meth? I picked up 20whp from my cone intakes. At a certain point, MORE air is more important than slightly colder air. This is especially true with meth, where you're going to see negligible differences in IAT's between a closed box versus open intake.

As for K&N style filters damaging your engine...that is a ridiculous reason not to run one. If your car is stock and it's only going to make 5whp with some intakes, that is a perfectly acceptable reason to not bother, but you shouldn't be worried about "dust" getting in your engine.

EXCELLENT oil and fuel filters can filter out particles that are 10-20 microns. A K&N filter is good to 5 microns. So if the K&N filter is causing engine damage, your stock fuel filter and oil filter are doing far worse things to your engine...

Originally Posted by Brandon26pdx

For consistency, open intakes are no good either. Stock airbox draws cool air through the front grills and keeps the engine happy most of the time. Open intakes draw hot air out of the engine bay in idle and low speed driving conditions and make for poor drivability and heat soak.

Yes, in stop and go traffic, a stock airbox is going to be better than a cone intake. Why would you care about losing 5hp in stop and go traffic? Are you doing your quarter mile pulls on the freeway during rush hour? That argument always seemed odd to me. When air is flowing (you're actually driving fast) the cone intake out performs a stock airbox. So when you actually want/need the performance it's there. How loosing 5hp in stop and go traffic makes for "poor drivability" I don't understand.

Originally Posted by Brandon26pdx

An ideally designed high performance intake would use a closed box similar to the stock one, and use a larger sized OEM style paper filter for better CFM capacity without the filtration being compromised. Something like this would cost a good bit of money for questionable gains though. (Somebody made a fancy-schmancy OEM style Hi-po intake for the N54 with a carbon fiber air box, but I forget who it was. It was spendy though I remember.)

This is true, although sadly, after putting that $1000 intake on your car, the most noticeable gain is going to be from removing that paper filter and replacing it with a drop-in filter, so now you're back to square one with the dust in your engine. Although, to be fair, you will have more horsepower now in rush hour traffic.

Personally, I'll take the 20whp for a hundred bucks.

As for the original post, to answer your question, it's because for about half to a third of the price of the AFE, you can just get BMS intakes that do the same exact thing. They don't come with a pretty plastic box to sit in, but the filters are bigger.

[thez99]

Originally Posted by RealityDesign

This depends entirely on your mods. On an otherwise stock car, sure, you're going to see 5whp gains. Running meth? I picked up 20whp from my cone intakes. At a certain point, MORE air is more important than slightly colder air. This is especially true with meth, where you're going to see negligible differences in IAT's between a closed box versus open intake.

As for K&N style filters damaging your engine...that is a ridiculous reason not to run one. If your car is stock and it's only going to make 5whp with some intakes, that is a perfectly acceptable reason to not bother, but you shouldn't be worried about "dust" getting in your engine.

EXCELLENT oil and fuel filters can filter out particles that are 10-20 microns. A K&N filter is good to 5 microns. So if the K&N filter is causing engine damage, your stock fuel filter and oil filter are doing far worse things to your engine...



Yes, in stop and go traffic, a stock airbox is going to be better than a cone intake. Why would you care about losing 5hp in stop and go traffic? Are you doing your quarter mile pulls on the freeway during rush hour? That argument always seemed odd to me. When air is flowing (you're actually driving fast) the cone intake out performs a stock airbox. So when you actually want/need the performance it's there. How loosing 5hp in stop and go traffic makes for "poor drivability" I don't understand.



This is true, although sadly, after putting that $1000 intake on your car, the most noticeable gain is going to be from removing that paper filter and replacing it with a drop-in filter, so now you're back to square one with the dust in your engine. Although, to be fair, you will have more horsepower now in rush hour traffic.

Personally, I'll take the 20whp for a hundred bucks.

As for the original post, to answer your question, it's because for about half to a third of the price of the AFE, you can just get BMS intakes that do the same exact thing. They don't come with a pretty plastic box to sit in, but the filters are bigger.

, and

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by naorgil

I saw a random company on ebay who made a K&N system similar to the Injen and they claim 10HP dyno'd also. IDK why these cars would be so much different than my Eov 9, im surprised that so many mods have no gains. catback on an Evo certainly has gains with a tune, and I've seen some intakes on my Evo push as much as 15-20whp with just an intake and NO TUNE. IDK why replacing a stock restrictive muffler with no muffler or a sport muffler would result in no gains? Or how getting an intake that flows much better than stock would result in no gain. Not arguing with anybody just surprising to a semi-newb who came from a world where anything you changed had significant gains that could be measured.

Different engines and different turbo designs.

As far as intakes that can flow "more".
Ok, I can sell you a spoon that can hold more soup.
Does that mean your mouth can actually take more soup in?
Or can your stomach hold more soup just because you use a bigger spoon?

There's a limited amount of air your engine can take in, given a certain boost level,at certain atmospheric conditions. If the intake you have can properly provide the amount of air your engine can take in, then getting an intake that can "flow more" means nothing.
Bigger soup spoon, same mouth and stomach.

[RealityDesign]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Different engines and different turbo designs.

As far as intakes that can flow "more".
Ok, I can sell you a spoon that can hold more soup.
Does that mean your mouth can actually take more soup in?
Or can your stomach hold more soup just because you use a bigger spoon?

There's a limited amount of air your engine can take in, given a certain boost level,at certain atmospheric conditions. If the intake you have can properly provide the amount of air your engine can take in, then getting an intake that can "flow more" means nothing.
Bigger soup spoon, same mouth and stomach.

Read my post 2 above yours. At stock boost, the DCI's make 5whp...there isn't much point, although 5whp for 100 bucks and 10 minutes of your time still isn't a bad deal. At my boost levels, they make 20whp. Guess what? I need a bigger spoon cause my mouth/stomach wants to eat almost twice as much soup as stock.

[thez99]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Different engines and different turbo designs.

As far as intakes that can flow "more".
Ok, I can sell you a spoon that can hold more soup.
Does that mean your mouth can actually take more soup in?
Or can your stomach hold more soup just because you use a bigger spoon?

There's a limited amount of air your engine can take in, given a certain boost level,at certain atmospheric conditions. If the intake you have can properly provide the amount of air your engine can take in, then getting an intake that can "flow more" means nothing.
Bigger soup spoon, same mouth and stomach.

Well actually, our stock intake is fairly restrictive, so YES an open intake with bigger filters connected to each separate intake with less piping WILL allow more flow, will allow faster spool and will grant the turbo's more air, especially when they really need it.

Wtf was that spoon thing??

Basically everything that dood above me said meshed with what ive said is all you need to think bout when it comes to intakes for this car, its not that big of a deal such as it may be with a NA engine. So just get the BMS, take the other 300 bucks and buy ur self 300 cokes and smile

[RealityDesign]

Originally Posted by thez99

So just get the BMS, take the other 300 bucks and buy ur self 300 cokes and smile

LOL @ the cokes. You must really enjoy soda .

[thez99]

Originally Posted by RealityDesign

LOL @ the cokes. You must really enjoy soda .

Nah, just goes with the "stfu, have a coke and a smile" phrase

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by RealityDesign

Read my post 2 above yours. At stock boost, the DCI's make 5whp...there isn't much point, although 5whp for 100 bucks and 10 minutes of your time still isn't a bad deal. At my boost levels, they make 20whp. Guess what? I need a bigger spoon cause my mouth/stomach wants to eat almost twice as much soup as stock.

Great. Then why roll your eyes?
My response wasn't even to you or about you.
Is something I said incorrect?

Read again and tell me why you'd argue with this:
"There's a limited amount of air your engine can take in, given a certain boost level,at certain atmospheric conditions. If the intake you have can properly provide the amount of air your engine can take in, then getting an intake that can "flow more" means nothing."

Again, IF, an engine can breathe in freely all it can handle with a stock intake, then getting a larger "higher flowing" intake will do nothing more.
It's that simple.

If a higher and freer flowing intake does indeed increase power, then the replaced intake was not sufficient.

I can't be any clearer than that, but feel free to roll your eyes.
You can cheat physics.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by thez99

Well actually, our stock intake is fairly restrictive, so YES an open intake with bigger filters connected to each separate intake with less piping WILL allow more flow, will allow faster spool and will grant the turbo's more air, especially when they really need it.

Wtf was that spoon thing??

Basically everything that dood above me said meshed with what ive said is all you need to think bout when it comes to intakes for this car, its not that big of a deal such as it may be with a NA engine. So just get the BMS, take the other 300 bucks and buy ur self 300 cokes and smile

If you look again, you'll see I wasn't responding to you either.

The "spoon" thing is to illustrate that simply getting something that is bigger or "higher flow" doesn't mean anything, unless there is a need for it.
To think of it, I should have used a straw like I have in the past.
Breathe through a small diameter straw and it can be hard to breathe in and take in the amount of air you need. With a too restrictive straw you exert more energy just to get the air in, and there is not enough air once you've expanded your lungs fully.
Once you've found a straw that allows you to breathe easily and take in the full amount of air your lungs can possibly take in, then getting a larger greater flowing straw won't have any greater benefit.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by thez99

Nah, just goes with the "stfu, have a coke and a smile" phrase

STFU isn't in the Coke phrase.

Oh, you must mean something else.

[RealityDesign]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Again, IF, an engine can breathe in freely all it can handle with a stock intake, then getting a larger "higher flowing" intake will do nothing more.
It's that simple.

Problem with this is that even bone stock, a cone intake makes about 5-7whp. Is it a big difference? No. But if the stock intake really wasn't a restriction, you'd see no gains at all. So yes, I was rolling my eyes at that. It makes MORE sense as you mod the car and raise the boost, but even stock, for $100, there is a benefit.

People do downpipes all day long and gain 10whp. Let's do some simple math on an otherwise stock car:

Estimating low, $800 for downpipes + 4 hours install time = 10 whp.
$100 for DCI + 20 minutes install time = 5-7 whp.

Seems like you need to go crap on some downpipe threads right now since they are about 4 times worse in terms of performance per dollar. Then again, they don't let dust in to your engine so I guess they're worth it.

The fact is none of the bolt-ons on this car are particularly significant. That doesn't mean I go around to every intake, intercooler, or downpipe thread on the forum and go tell them they're wasting their money and should just get a meth kit for 4x the gains and half the price. Of all the bolt-ons, intakes are the best bang for your buck by a long shot.

For me, they are worth it simply for the extra room in my engine bay. I'd have an impossible time getting access to my diverter valves, meth bungs, etc, with a stock airbox. Not having to spend 20 minutes removing my intake every time I want to touch something in that area of the engine bay is worth the $100 even if it didn't make 20whp .

[AWD2RWD]

Is it the same BS with downpipes too? Seems like I really bought the wrong car. Meh, I can deal until I upgrade to something better.

[Jeef Beef]

Originally Posted by thez99

I wonder if anyone realizes that with a turbocharged engine its not all about intake air temps...cmon. What is more important with an intake on a FI engine is FLOW. The turbos suck air at high velocity to create their boost, turbos will run hot regardless, its just how it works, lowering the intake air temps a few degrees wont do shit, however relieving the restriction of airflow from the intakes into the manifold WILL do something. Its not just about HP numbers, etc. its about allowing the turbo's to operate faster, spool faster and more efficiently.

If you are worried about engine temps, mod your intercooler, again, the engine is TURBOCHARGED. The main cause of engine overheating and heatsoak is a small restrictive FMIC, or the same with the downpipes. 99% of the time it has NOTHING to do with air intake temps...

Lemme break it down bout the Afe..its the same product as the BMS DCI, however it has more piping and bends, therefore more airflow restriction, just as their new single filter does as well, pulling all the air for TWO intakes thru one filter with two stemmed pipes is MORE restrictive. The simplest version (bms) for our car is by far the best option if you're looking to go this route. Afe just thinks that if they slap a "heatshield" on they can charge 4 times as much and say they make all kinds of HP improvements but this wont happen.

If you want a DCI which theres no reason not too, go with BMS or stick with the stock box. I am installing mine along with an HPF FMIC to lower engine temps, therefore I am clearing the intake airflow restriction and as well as the flow restriction from the intercooler, hence cooling the boosted air, as well as allowing more air to flow into the engine = best function for the money imho.

Flame me all you want, but this is as technical as I will get as I am no engine techy, but I know enough about how FI engines run versus NA ones.

Originally Posted by RealityDesign

This depends entirely on your mods. On an otherwise stock car, sure, you're going to see 5whp gains. Running meth? I picked up 20whp from my cone intakes. At a certain point, MORE air is more important than slightly colder air. This is especially true with meth, where you're going to see negligible differences in IAT's between a closed box versus open intake.

As for K&N style filters damaging your engine...that is a ridiculous reason not to run one. If your car is stock and it's only going to make 5whp with some intakes, that is a perfectly acceptable reason to not bother, but you shouldn't be worried about "dust" getting in your engine.

EXCELLENT oil and fuel filters can filter out particles that are 10-20 microns. A K&N filter is good to 5 microns. So if the K&N filter is causing engine damage, your stock fuel filter and oil filter are doing far worse things to your engine...



Yes, in stop and go traffic, a stock airbox is going to be better than a cone intake. Why would you care about losing 5hp in stop and go traffic? Are you doing your quarter mile pulls on the freeway during rush hour? That argument always seemed odd to me. When air is flowing (you're actually driving fast) the cone intake out performs a stock airbox. So when you actually want/need the performance it's there. How loosing 5hp in stop and go traffic makes for "poor drivability" I don't understand.



This is true, although sadly, after putting that $1000 intake on your car, the most noticeable gain is going to be from removing that paper filter and replacing it with a drop-in filter, so now you're back to square one with the dust in your engine. Although, to be fair, you will have more horsepower now in rush hour traffic.

Personally, I'll take the 20whp for a hundred bucks.

As for the original post, to answer your question, it's because for about half to a third of the price of the AFE, you can just get BMS intakes that do the same exact thing. They don't come with a pretty plastic box to sit in, but the filters are bigger.

+9999999 Glad to see some guys who know sense on this forum. We gotta stick together!

Originally Posted by naorgil

Is it the same BS with downpipes too? Seems like I really bought the wrong car. Meh, I can deal until I upgrade to something better.

No, catless downpipes will give you VERY noticeable gains. Along with tune and meth, it is one of the best mods to increase power.

[thez99]

to your Aussie guy

[RealityDesign]

Originally Posted by naorgil

Is it the same BS with downpipes too? Seems like I really bought the wrong car. Meh, I can deal until I upgrade to something better.

It's hard to find something better, quite honestly. This car makes some serious power for very little money. Just a tune, meth, and some intakes can make upwards of 400whp. That's like 110-130whp for $1,000. Every other car I've had you'd need to spend 5x that to see even close to those gains. On an Evo or STI (just saying this based on your profile), you'd need a turbo swap, injectors, fuel pump, intake, tune, fmic, etc... It's not even fair how stupidly easy this car make power.

Want more than 430 or so whp? Get some $3,000 turbos and laugh your way to 500whp...soon to be 550-600whp once the fuel pump gets all figured out. This platform seriously is too easy. It's just weird coming from the Subaru / Mitsubishi world where you need what seems like never-ending bolt-ons to make serious power (that then blows your motor), and then you have the N54 where the bolt-ons don't do shit, but the car makes 400whp anyway. LOL

[AWD2RWD]

Does meth count as an easy mod? I always put that in a category of "serious mods" but maybe I have misinformation. This is the first forum people act like meth is NBD.....

But for the Record, Evo imo is way quicker than this car. I had a heavily modded Evo and its just an animal in comparison. Theres SO MANY evos in the 10s its absurd. Theres a few bolt on E85 evos with STOCK TURBOS in the high 10s...... It's simply just not DD-able and I don't track. A stock Evo with simple mods + meth imo would crush a 135i with meth and stock turbos.

[RnmEvo9]

Originally Posted by RealityDesign

It's hard to find something better, quite honestly. This car makes some serious power for very little money. Just a tune, meth, and some intakes can make upwards of 400whp. That's like 110-130whp for $1,000. Every other car I've had you'd need to spend 5x that to see even close to those gains. On an Evo or STI (just saying this based on your profile), you'd need a turbo swap, injectors, fuel pump, intake, tune, fmic, etc... It's not even fair how stupidly easy this car make power.

Want more than 430 or so whp? Get some $3,000 turbos and laugh your way to 500whp...soon to be 550-600whp once the fuel pump gets all figured out. This platform seriously is too easy. It's just weird coming from the Subaru / Mitsubishi world where you need what seems like never-ending bolt-ons to make serious power (that then blows your motor), and then you have the N54 where the bolt-ons don't do shit, but the car makes 400whp anyway. LOL

Depends on the model Evo you are talking about. I spent about 2500 to go from a measly 240awhp to 414awhp on my Evo9 without a turbo upgrade. All it had was bolt ons and a tune on e85 which wouldve spanked 90% of n54 owners in the drag strip and roadcourse. Didn't need meth as e85 is superior to it all while having that kind of power on tap without having to worry about refilling it. You can do simple bolt ons and keep it reliable still like me, but if you want more, then you'll obviously have to build the motor and go from there. IMO it is still a superior platform to build on if you are looking for power and don't care for BMW aesthetics, whether it be drag or road racing. A 135i or 335i is a superior daily driver though hands down.