C&D: 1M Takes Down Audi TT RS and Infiniti IPL G37 in First 1M Comparo Win

[suffeks]

i would like to mention the TTRS also has 1 less cylinder, 0.5 less displacement, and 1 less turbo to add fuel to the fire haha

the motor is purely amazing, it can make a lot of power very easily and reliably. it is the first mass production gasoline car with a CGI block making it so strong... so the motor alone is worth the extra money compared to the N54 the nicer interior is just bonus

[sakimano]

Originally Posted by superchargedman

Well, I caved. Here’s my analysis. Let me approach each one of your points:
1. No roll-out was documented in the C&D. You are speculating on this, based on a generalization you have made towards US mags. US standards, drag racing and for magazines, allow a 1 foot rollout. For sub 5 second street cars this gives them a 0.3-0.4 second advantage compared to a test that does not use a roll out (i.e. most of the rest of the world).

Road and Track, Car and Driver and Motor Trend ALL use a 1 foot rollout when testing cars. It's in the test notes.

They do so because that's what the dragstrip does (approximately).

Originally Posted by superchargedman

smoked is a strong choice of words, and i agree, they're close. i was actually posting quickly to get the article up for everyone else to read before i specifically read the comparison to the other cars. if it appeases you, the 1m won and did no smoking of any sort.

lol thanks.

Interestingly the M 'won' by 14 points...

6 on price, which was guesswork as we don't know the price of the TTRS here yet
3 on 'flexibility' whatever the hell that is (powertrain)
4 on back seat space (these are performance coupes...who cares)

I think I'd trade those all in for a car that was miles better looking, did not have an econobox quality interior (CD's words about the 1M)...and is BUSLENGTHS faster.

This is one weird review. I can't wait for the letters from the people who hate Car&Driver for being BMW biased...C&D just served themselves up on a platter with this one.

[darkvaderr]

Originally Posted by sakimano

Road and Track, Car and Driver and Motor Trend ALL use a 1 foot rollout when testing cars. It's in the test notes.

They do so because that's what the dragstrip does (approximately).



lol thanks.

Interestingly the M 'won' by 14 points...

6 on price, which was guesswork as we don't know the price of the TTRS here yet
3 on 'flexibility' whatever the hell that is (powertrain)
4 on back seat space (these are performance coupes...who cares)

I think I'd trade those all in for a car that was miles better looking, did not have an econobox quality interior (CD's words about the 1M)...and is BUSLENGTHS faster.

This is one weird review. I can't wait for the letters from the people who hate Car&Driver for being BMW biased...C&D just served themselves up on a platter with this one.

1) the 1M and TT-RS got the same marks for interior.
2) the TT-RS costs way more.
3) if you could read, the 1M won because IT DRIVES BETTER.
But by your logic, to hell with the TT-RS, keep going up the price ladder, you should'nt buy anything but a Porsche GT3, its faster, better looking, and has a better interior than the TT-RS

If you can't stand that your fav car company puts out a car with mad acceleration, gorgeous bodywork, yet still doesn't drive as good as a cheaper BMW, go complain to audi. If you base a cars worth on their acceleration, go buy a drag car. Leave DRIVING to the rest of us.



Edit: you live in Canada, the TT-S is already more expensive than the 1M here, why don't you enlighten me on how that the TT-S compares to the 1M

[py0413]

wondering why is the g37 placed in this article to compare with 1m and ttrs? shouldn't it be the nismo 370z instead? g37 is a nice car but it's bigger and heavier to compete here.

[MrRoboto]

Originally Posted by superchargedman

3. Previous references provided in this thread give 0-60 times. One of my points: you haven't looked at all of the evidence, including basic facts regarding the 1m. We are comparing appropriately. Europe uses 0-100 km/hr which is 62 mph. The difference for a sub 5 second street car for this 2 mph is about 0.2-0.3 seconds.

Some European country's such as Eangland and the UK at large measure in mph while others such as Germany use the metric system in kmph.

[superchargedman]

PREVIOUS references in THIS thread give 0-60, as well as 0-100km/h.

[pyrat]

Originally Posted by sakimano

In the quarter mile trapping at 110mph or so, you're moving about 150 feet per a second, or about 15 feet per tenth. These cars are about 14-15 feet long. In other words, one tenth of a second = a 1 car length win. 5 tenths = 5 car lengths.


The TT-RS won the quarter mile by:

9 car lengths over the 1M
18 car lengths over the bloated G douchemobile

So...what were you (and C&D) smoking when you said the 1M smoked the TT-RS?

A comparo of any sort with the 1M in it has been long awaited, especially after all the hype. So when the 1M wins by even a single point, the OP is all over it as a 1M victory, even if that means overstating it as "smoking".

Title should read, Audi TT-RS smokes 1M (and many many other cars) 0-60 and 1/4, yet 1M is overall winner.

[Jet Mech]

Looks like the kids from the Audi/VW message boards have nothing better to do...except troll.

[poverty]

Originally Posted by Jet Mech

Looks like the kids from the Audi/VW message boards have nothing better to do...except troll.

You dont believe in discussions from both sides of the table huh?

[Raine]

Originally Posted by Jet Mech

Looks like the kids from the Audi/VW message boards have nothing better to do...except troll.

That's what they do.

You never see BMW enthusiasts outside of their respective message boards. Only Audi/VW fanboys venture out. It's probably because the majority of Audi owners drive an A3/A4 and have no intention of modding their cars, thus a lack of board activity. 135i/335i owners keep BMW message boards alive.

[poverty]

Originally Posted by Raine

That's what they do.

You never see BMW enthusiasts outside of their respective message boards. Only Audi/VW fanboys venture out. It's probably because the majority of Audi owners drive an A3/A4 and have no intention of modding their cars, thus a lack of board activity. 135i/335i owners keep BMW message boards alive.

Dont be so small minded, the tuning scene for VAG cars is absolutely massive in Europe, and we do have several members on our VAG based forums who own both audi's and bmws.

Its annoying being labelled a troll just because you dont currently own a BMW

[hwelvaar]

Originally Posted by poverty

Its annoying being labelled a troll just because you dont currently own a BMW

That's right.
But if you just joined the board a few days ago, have only few msg on your name, and they're all like ... pro-Audi and anti-1 posts, and the board is called 1addicts, what do you expect ?

[poverty]

Originally Posted by hwelvaar

That's right.
But if you just joined the board a few days ago, have only few msg on your name, and they're all like ... pro-Audi and anti-1 posts, and the board is called 1addicts, what do you expect ?

where are the anti 1 posts that you speak of though

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by pyrat

Title should read, Audi TT-RS smokes 1M (and many many other cars) 0-60 and 1/4, yet 1M is overall winner.

Umm.. I think the title DID read that ... Clearly there is more to a C/D test than running at the dragstrip.. otherwise the mag would be named Straight Line or something like that.. Interesting how a mag named Car and DRIVER gets knocked down when the mag picks the better DRIVER'S car. As per the article... they felt the AUDI was not as involving. Faster.. Check... more fun to drive? more rewarding..? apparently not.

[superchargedman]

Poverty's right. He's only been trying to give his own views and experiences.

Originally Posted by poverty

where are the anti 1 posts that you speak of though

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Impervious

Props to Audi for making that TT achieve a sub 4 second run. It will be interesting to truly see what the TT runs when a manual one arrives stateside. I agree with the results in that the M is the best all round sports car. I felt bad for the Infiniti getting thrown in the mix with two heavy weights.

So, you've driven a 1M and a TT RS, and that's how you can actually agree with the results of this test?

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Philritter21

Must. Read. Full. Article. 3.6 is only achievable with DCT, which is not available in the US.... otherwise, the acceleration seems to be on par with the M.

The 1 second or over for the MT TT is just a guess.
The DCT 135i is not even close to .5 seconds faster than a MT 135i.
C&D over reached on that one.

The MT TT should still be quicker than the 1M. AWD grip is a big advantage for off the line acceleration.
Look at the 0-30 times, where there is NO shift required.
TT RS-1.2 sec, 1M-1.8 sec.

Right off the line AWD shows it's grip advantage. That time is not dependent on how fast the DSG or DCT can shift, since there is no shift needed to that speed.
TT at top of 1st does 36mph, the 1M does 41mph.

The 0-100mph run shows the AWD off the line advantage along with the fast shifts of the DSG. The difference is 1.6 seconds.

The rolling start demonstrates the 1M slight engine size advantage with awesome torque development.
Most of us know the N54 creates BIG torque at lower rpm.
Starting at 5mph removes most of the traction advantage of the TT.
This is where the 3.0 liter engine of the 1M shows it's torque advantage as there is less traction lost as this is a rolling start.
I wish these rolling start tests would give us not just a 0-60, but include 0-100, 0-120, 0-130, etc... It would give us a better idea of the particular cars drive line flexibility.

The Audi's accel prowess is simply astounding.
The writers comments about the Audi having less driver involvement sounds like bias to me. What the Audi has is AWD, and a darn good one, along with excellent chassis tuning, such that it's that good with it's grip.
Just because the TT does what all drivers want, the ability to grip and hold a line, does that mean it's less of a drivers car? To some it does.
Some people have a greater enjoyment in cars that run on the ragged edge of handling where the driver HAS to do more to make sure he's not off into the trees or down a mountain. Older Porsches come to mind.
But, does that really make the car "better" or driver oriented?
Not to me. But, again, this aspect is a personal choice as both of these cars will be amazing to drive.

The 1M has good things going for it like the revised suspension tuning and parts, seemingly faster ratio steering rack, and meatier tires compared to a regular 135i.
It's a pretty good deal considering that the price is not that much more than a standard 135i.
An equally optioned 1M with premium pkg. is a touch under $50k.
A 135i MT with prem pkg and M sport pkg is a bit over $44k.
$6k more gets you the really cool and distinctive M body, M suspension, higher tuned N54, better MT, unique dash gauges, selectable throttle response, etc.., and exclusivity that will easily pay you back if you ever decide to sell in the future.
It's a sweet deal.

I really want a vert for my next car, but if I stick with a hard top, the 1M will be at the top of my shopping list.

The TT RS is a sweet piece of machinery, but the cost is crazy high.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Memphis1

3.6 is a TYPO...


the correct time is 4.6

If you are going to use manufactures numbers and not actual tests numbers, then the 1M's official 0-60 is 4.7.
So, C&Ds 4.5 time must also be a typo.


A manufacturer doesn't want to make an acceleration claim achieved by a reviewer as it's official time, as that could cause customers to claim "foul/fowl" if/when their car can't achieve the pro testers numbers.
By keeping the times reasonable, thus lower, the manufacturer can guarantee the time they list.
But, that doesn't mean a review driver couldn't do better or much better.

Oh, and turbo engines are much more susceptible to atmospheric conditions than NA engines are. So, the power output can vary a good bit depending on weather and/or air conditions.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by l888apex

This comparo is so dumb. I'm not really biased, owned a B5 S4 and love Audi's, but TT's are the girliest model they offer in the opinion of most people I've seen. I'm sure these guys are excited that M owners are getting all worked up over their girly cars now being quick and girly, but the TT-RS is the same price as a well optioned M3, not a bare 1M. The performance is obviously skewed by the AWD and DCT and Launch Control. It's probably building a good bit of boost off the line. The Evo comes with a factory 2-step launch control that lets you floor it while keeping the RPM set at 6k and you will see 7-10 psi before you are moving. I have cut a 1.59 60' on 330 whp with street tires and have the slip too. That's why it does a 12.1 but the trap speed of 113 is about normal for a 340 hp 3100 lbs car. It's not defying the laws of physics it's just quick thanks to it not being very hard to drive. Reminds me of when the GT-R pulling crazy magazine comparo numbers, seemingly impossible at 480 hp and 3800 lbs.

The TT-RS is obviously a bit laggier than the M which is why it's not as strong in the 5-60, and the in-gear pulls. It couldn't even use all it's gears at those speeds which means it probably only shifts twice going to 60 mph too whereas the close ratio 6 speed M has 3 but on the butt dyno it probably feels better to drive the BMW. Both cars seem to have good modding potential too. The 1M deserves to win because it's a much better value and is obviously well balanced and fun to drive as seen by those scores.

The TT and the 1M require only 1 shift to get to 60.
TT hits 60 at the top of 2nd.
1M hits 74mph at the top of 2nd.

[BBK]

I was having a look through some Porsche forums and found them comparing the TT-RS to the Cayman S. Isn't it funny that a car held in so high esteem has no problem comparing an Audi to itself?

And yet everyone here is whinging as if their life is over because an Audi beat their hero...

All these cars are great, the Audi and Porsche are more expensive, but they are arguably more prestigious and rare and definitely are styled better. The 1M has its place in the comparo, I think its main problem is that it is an old platform/shape and will nearly be outdated a year after it is released...

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by swamp2

This car is a RINGER, period.

Let's cover some basics first (based on many misstatements made here prior). Then we will get to the statement above.

The biggest basic of the TT RS....AWD traction.
It can make a big difference in acceleration.

The new 400+HP Mustang GT is getting 0-60 numbers barely faster than many 135i's that get 4.7-4.8.

You have to be able to turn that engine power in forward motion.

[Franklin Joseph]

Originally Posted by BBK

I was having a look through some Porsche forums and found them comparing the TT-RS to the Cayman S. Isn't it funny that a car held in so high esteem has no problem comparing an Audi to itself?

And yet everyone here is whinging as if their life is over because an Audi beat their hero...

All these cars are great, the Audi and Porsche are more expensive, but they are arguably more prestigious and rare and definitely are styled better. The 1M has its place in the comparo, I think its main problem is that it is an old platform/shape and will nearly be outdated a year after it is released...

Just because the audi cost more doesnt make it more prestigious. Styling is subjective, i personally do not like the look for the tt. There are other vag cars that i like better.

There will always be a quicker better car out there, just buy whatever you want and enjoy it.