1M S65 swap. What would it take?

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by PyratOne

^^Awesome thread, incredible machine!! Thanks for the post Sweden140

Now, where did I put my Swedish:English dictionary??

Use Chrome.

[Sweden140]

Originally Posted by PyratOne

^^Awesome thread, incredible machine!! Thanks for the post Sweden140

Now, where did I put my Swedish:English dictionary??

My pleasure!

Saw it IRL last weekend - incredible.

Will soon start building something similar, but perhaps based on an E82 instead. Engine, gearbox and rear axle from an E92M3 2010 arrived last week.

Body and kit to be decided, but if E82 not sure if I want to use a "narrow" M1 like kit or something like this:http://www.ahles-motorsport.de/asset.../V2K_5071R.jpg

[m3dragon]

Originally Posted by Blue55

You'd never get the swap to pass emissions in CA or many other states. It would essentially become a 'track only' car and you would devalue it so much as to make it unsalable.

There are ways to pass smog legally with changes to motors. Other wise I would not have done the full CSL motor work that I did.

[urban_alchemist]

Not really interested in a V8. Now if we were talking about the S54...

Honestly: the one criticism I have of the car is that I'd love a peaky NA engine that whose neck I could wring - and an I6 at that. As a former S50 and S54 owner - either would do the trick, but the S54 in the 1M's body would be perfect...

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by urban_alchemist

Not really interested in a V8. Now if we were talking about the S54...

Honestly: the one criticism I have of the car is that I'd love a peaky NA engine that whose neck I could wring - and an I6 at that. As a former S50 and S54 owner - either would do the trick, but the S54 in the 1M's body would be perfect...

It would also be nose heavy.

[Dackelone]

Last weekend when I was at ///M GmbH(for the M Studio tour) they said they built a 135i/1M prototype with the S65 V8 engine just to see "IF" it would work. While the engine does fit into the chassis they said the combo really doesn't work. It just can't put down the power nor handle like a proper ///M car. So that is why they went with the proven N54 engine and "tuned it".

Btw... they said they really can't throw away a prototype like that, so it ends up in the secret ///M garage downstairs under M HQ. I so do want to see that place one day!!! Bitte, bitte, BMW M!!!

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Last weekend when I was at ///M GmbH (for the M Studio tour) they said they built a 135i/1M prototype with the S65 V8 engine just to see "IF" it would work. While the engine does fit into the chassis they said the combo really doesn't work. It just can't put down the power nor handle like a proper ///M car. So that is why they went with the proven N54 engine and "tuned it".

Dackel, you gotta remind them to the real reason:

"We had initially toyed with the idea of a 1M when we were conceiving the Coupe and did work with evaluation models then using the engine from the E46 and the upgraded E46 CSL engine but it proved to be too heavy for the car. Originally in the early days of marketing the standard 135i was originally meant to be an M model. [...] The initial engine proposal was the N55 but they were having issues that cannot be solved within the time window. [...] Valvetronic was the main cause of the time delay but BMW have spent some time on this and are using the N55 as a basis for the next M3."
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...30&postcount=4
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...79&postcount=1

In January 2010 - thus many months before the 1M development was finalized - the very knowledgeable Scott26 reported that it was a deliberate choice to keep the 1M out of the M3 comfort zone (engine wise + bhp); at that stage the M division was still walking the N55 route for the 1M (except if it was a typo of Scott26 and he meant "N54"):
"The M1 will not feature a V8 that remains exclusive to the M3.
The engine is based on the updated N55 six cylinder but reconfigured by the M Division to accommodate Twin-Turbo and a high performance intercooler.
PS Output is at 345PS again not to tread on the toes of the M3."
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...55#post6552325
"With the M3 overlooking the M1's shoulder it will be positioned not to outclass that [M3] car in terms of power. Which is why it will be in the mid three hundreds [bhp]."
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...&postcount=108

Also:
Q: "Why did BMW use the N54 in the 1M and not the N55? I read through a mess of threads and speculation ranged anywhere from not having enough time to develop the N55, to the N54's two turbos being superior as horsepower goes up, to wanting to get more life out of existing tooling with the N54... Seems the N55 being lighter would have been an advantage, and the power isn't much more than either the 135's N54 or N55 anyway. Just curious.
A: "When I asked this to an engineer in Leipzig, I was told that the N54 is a better, more robust setup. The dual turbo setup is more expensive and makes more power than the single turbo N55. The response was unequivocal in indicating that the N54 is the better motor, therefore it is employed in the 1M."
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=482970

[ozinaldo]

The best I6 BMW engine that would fit in the 1M like a glove was the N54T, this engine contributes a lot to 1M to have its own character. First of all it has probably more torque and clearly at a much broader range than their best NA engine to date (which imo is E60 M5's V10 S85) and on top of that it practically matches the hp of their best NA I6 too (E46 M3 CSL engine with its 360 ps); I am talking about avarage dyno results here which we had witnessed more than enough, 1M does have around 360 hp and 550 nm at crank, that is a absurdly joyful combo.

It would be just a little(r) M3 with a wrong (read: too short for a V8 NA engine) chassis if the V8 packed in it or would be merely a newly dressed 2011 model year E46 M3 with the other alternative, thankfully it is neither now, it has the chassis capability of the M3, size, weight and agility of E46 and real world power coming from their ground breaking N54, in its best form.

So with this tq and hp combination, and this twin turbo set up reknown rightfully for its smoothness and incredible in-gear power delivery, and probably the industry best level of response for a turbo engine, I see nothing serious to complain about the choice of N54T for the 1M. It is a better choice than BMW's past I6 engines or actual V8, for this car. This engine's weaker points are also relatively easy and cheap to cure, with a good exhaust and a few bolt on mods.

And when you reach to its N52-like 7000 rpm limit you have the best manual shifter BMW developed to date to utilize, which is a joy to do So, I believe BMW M made the very right choices indeed, not only on the body style and chassis-wise but with regard to the engine too.

[urban_alchemist]

Originally Posted by ozinaldo

And when you reach to its N52-like 7000 rpm limit you have the best manual shifter BMW developed to date to utilize, which is a joy to do So, I believe BMW M made the very right choices indeed, not only on the body style and chassis-wise but with regard to the engine too.

No, because you run out of puff at ~5,000rpm. That's my point - it's really the only shame with our cars that you can't really search out every last rpm before the (admittedly awesome) change-up...

Really the only thing I miss from my past M cars.

[ozinaldo]

Originally Posted by urban_alchemist

No, because you run out of puff at ~5,000rpm. That's my point - it's really the only shame with our cars that you can't really search out every last rpm before the (admittedly awesome) change-up...

Really the only thing I miss from my past M cars.

5000? My dyno runs showed that the peak power was reached at around 5500 (BMW claims 5900 rpm) and remained quite close to peak even around 6000, in fact 1M still produces more hp (and more tq too) than a M3 at 6000 rpm (from idle to 6200 N54T has more power and torque), M3 catches up and passes only after that, precisely at around 6200-6300; but revs are noticeably better up there after the exhaust, cp and filter mods I did, that's true, I admit it.

What I say is I never felt that the N54T looses its mojo alltogether at 5000; 6000 maybe yes, especially bone stock car, but not 5000, not that early. I take this car to 6700-6800 at second-third and fourth at a heartbeat quite often and it just zings there, easy to hit the rev limiter before you remember to avoid it at second and third gears which are the gears that count more in real world driving. Just because it has abundance of juice a bit before those high rpms doesn't mean that it is weak afterwards.

You say it yourself, if you want to keep the car at 3000 to 5000 rpm all the time, all you need to do is to shift more frequently which is a joy to do.

Honestly, I find the engine bonkers between 2500 to 6000, and at the same time doing a respectful job before 2500 and after 6000 as well. Which other engine has this kind of broad capacity? Plus, there are always tunes, again relatively cheap, to give more life at higher revs. We can't have it all, but I think we have the best fitting engine.

[Mark]

@dackelone Makes you wonder if that is it at :27 seconds??

[urban_alchemist]

Originally Posted by ozinaldo

5000? My dyno runs showed that the peak power was reached at around 5500 (BMW claims 5900 rpm) and remained quite close to peak even around 6000, in fact 1M still produces more hp (and more tq too) than a M3 at 6000 rpm (from idle to 6200 N54T has more power and torque), M3 catches up and passes only after that, precisely at around 6200-6300; but revs are noticeably better up there after the exhaust, cp and filter mods I did, that's true, I admit it.

What I say is I never felt that the N54T looses its mojo alltogether at 5000; 6000 maybe yes, especially bone stock car, but not 5000, not that early. I take this car to 6700-6800 at second-third and fourth at a heartbeat quite often and it just zings there, easy to hit the rev limiter before you remember to avoid it at second and third gears which are the gears that count more in real world driving. Just because it has abundance of juice a bit before those high rpms doesn't mean that it is weak afterwards.

You say it yourself, if you want to keep the car at 3000 to 5000 rpm all the time, all you need to do is to shift more frequently which is a joy to do.

Honestly, I find the engine bonkers between 2500 to 6000, and at the same time doing a respectful job before 2500 and after 6000 as well. Which other engine has this kind of broad capacity? Plus, there are always tunes, again relatively cheap, to give more life at higher revs. We can't have it all, but I think we have the best fitting engine.

You're right - I was being facetious. Power drops at about 6,000, but that's still a way off the redline. I agree, the shifter is wonderful (probably the best manual gearbox I've used), but every time I wring the car, I really feel like it should just keep building and building instead of petering out.

The low-end and midrange torque is addictive and preposterously usable, but BUT it really does have me hankering after the days of an 8,000 redline with peak hp at 7,900!

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by Mark

@dackelone Makes you wonder if that is it at :27 seconds??

Mark, that looks like a production 1M to me. I got the feeling that the 135i that ///M transplanted an S65 into started off life as a 135i. Although I did not specifically ask, I think the car would look more like one of those Sedona Red early "werkstestwagons" that we saw driving the streets of Garching three years ago. One of the ones with the bolt on rear fender flares, like the pic bellow.



Our guide at ///M Studio said normally they don't show guests their prototype garage because that is where they park the really secret cars - among the old prototypes too. Even the test cars that they are testing today... use that garage(******* and only come out at night to put some "test miles/kilometers" on at night bc no one will really notice them at night on the autobahn.

Our guide did say it might be possible to tour that garage one day. He would just need to clear it with his boss and it would have to be for a large group of press. I am totally down for THAT photo shoot. I have my "GO Bag" ready and I am waiting for the call or PM.


Dack

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Mark, that looks like a production 1M to me. I got the feeling that the 135i that ///M transplanted an S65 into started off life as a 135i. Although I did not specifically ask, I think the car would look more like one of those Sedona Red early "werkstestwagons" that we saw driving the streets of Garching three years ago. One of the ones with the bolt on rear fender flares, like the pic bellow.

Our guide at ///M Studio said normally they don't show guests their prototype garage because that is where they park the really secret cars - among the old prototypes too. Even the test cars that they are testing today... use that garage(******* and only come out at night to put some "test miles/kilometers" on at night bc no one will really notice them at night on the autobahn.

Our guide did say it might be possible to tour that garage one day. He would just need to clear it with his boss and it would have to be for a large group of press. I am totally down for THAT photo shoot. I have my "GO Bag" ready and I am waiting for the call or PM.


Dack

@dackelone You are right, makes sense! Although those early sedona prototypes did have only a single exhaust, but it was probably one of those very early prototypes.

So there is an even more super secret M prototype garage... Well then, another treat waits for all of us one day. If they let people in, I'll beg to come join you

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Our guide at ///M Studio said normally they don't show guests their prototype garage because that is where they park the really secret cars - among the old prototypes too. Even the test cars that they are testing today... use that garage(******* and only come out at night to put some "test miles/kilometers" on at night bc no one will really notice them at night on the autobahn.
Our guide did say it might be possible to tour that garage one day. He would just need to clear it with his boss and it would have to be for a large group of press. I am totally down for THAT photo shoot. I have my "GO Bag" ready and I am waiting for the call or PM.

Let us know if you spot a 1M CSL or 1M GTS inside that secret warehouse.

The hopeful messages which were subsequently quashed:

December 2010 (before the 1M launch):
Jon Sibal: "Is there a possibility of a «CSL» type version of the E82 1M Coupe at the end of its life cycle?"
BMW source: "Anything is possible, we have ideas and the creativity to expand. In the end it all comes down to the reception of the car. 1M is more personal than any other M car. It has to be more upfront with the customer because it is developed entirely for the customer who want something pure.
As it stands E82 production will be online till summer 2012, 1M will finish around the Spring. We have Cabrio production lasting till late 2012 in which they have produced a Cabrio model. We have a Cabrio unofficially. Reaction to the Coupe will determine the Cabrio's existence as will the GTS/CSL type car."


Spring 2011 (after the 1M launch):
"There is scope for a CSL version. This car [1M] has certainly generated a buzz. When we planned for this car we were cautious, but now [Spring 2011] there's some hype surrounding the 1M so there’s clearly going to be some people looking at what we can do next.
M is the pinnacle of engineering so if there's a CSL proposition or something really different that we could consider then we would. If there's something special and unique we can do with it then absolutely we would.
However, losing weight from cars is really expensive and the 1M fits very well at the moment at £40k. Whether it'd work as well at £60k just because it's a bit quicker and lighter then I don't know."

[PyratOne]

I had a few sleepless nights thinking about a 1M CSL

Mmmmmm......carbon fiber, stripped out interior, no radio, no AC.....bring it!!

Now here's a proposition. Send your 1M back M/// and have them put the CSL treatment on it. What would you pay for that??

[ilikebmxbikes]

[Artemis]

That's the 1M of Fred Flinstone...

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

[ayao]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes