[Iceman]

This is my first post here folks, so be gentle!

This place is a wealth of info, and I learn something everytime I read the various threads.

Regarding JD Power though, I believe statistics can be very misleading because the reader has no access to the supporting evidence that bears out the reported claims, or how the stats were calculated. You don't get to see all the ingredients, just the baked cake.

Further, I think it is a bad move for JD to now include "design" type aspects in the process of determining ranking. This is subjective. Subjectivity has no place in a statistical analysis. How will they account for the guy/girl that is completely in love with I-Drive?

The new 335i looks to be a "pocket rocket" and a ton of fun by the way. I rarely need the size (nor the consumption) of my X5 and look forward to the sedan's release.

[nmulax]

Originally Posted by Iceman

Further, I think it is a bad move for JD to now include "design" type aspects in the process of determining ranking. This is subjective. Subjectivity has no place in a statistical analysis. How will they account for the guy/girl that is completely in love with I-Drive?

I completely agree. I hate to generalize... but I'm sure a number of the 5 and 7 owners are older individuals who may find the technology BMW incorporates (especially I-Drive) confusing and therefor give a lower satistfaction rating. JD should stick to providing ratings based on statistical facts, not personal opinions.

[BMW0]

Hyundai way up there huh! It does explain why they are doing so well in the US. But still, wow Korea's coming along swift, watch out Toyota.

[SteVTEC]

Originally Posted by Iceman

Regarding JD Power though, I believe statistics can be very misleading because the reader has no access to the supporting evidence that bears out the reported claims, or how the stats were calculated. You don't get to see all the ingredients, just the baked cake.

No that's just what the consumer gets to see, for free. Manufacturers license the full data and it costs them TONS of money to do so, but it's important data for them to see so that they can judge previous designs and where to go in the future. You want to see it all? You have to pay big for it.

Originally Posted by Iceman

Further, I think it is a bad move for JD to now include "design" type aspects in the process of determining ranking. This is subjective. Subjectivity has no place in a statistical analysis. How will they account for the guy/girl that is completely in love with I-Drive?

What are you talking about? Sure it does. A lot of things in automotive design are purely subjective, so how are you supposed to know what people like or dislike as a whole, or what pleases or displeases them as a whole unless you have some sort of study and relevant data to go along with it? And then what metrics are you supposed to use to judge your own products with such that you can make future changes and improvements. Do you think this is ugly? Yes or no? Do you have enough room in the driver's seat? Are the cupholders in the right place? Are the controls intuitive and easy to use? All of that is subjective. So if one manufacturers sees that a higher percentage of their owners think their car is ugly, don't have enough room in the driver's seat, that the cupholders are in the wrong spot, and that the controls are overly complex and confusing than the competing car from a rival manufacturer, guess where they're going to be looking to improve their cars? Stats on owners subjective reactions to their vehicles are entirely important, entirely relevant, and manufacturers are looking for that all the time. In fact I bet the changes to the IQS study were made at the vehicle manufacturer's request. Manufacturers are JD Power's paying customers afterall, so they get what they want and pay for. We just get to see the "baked cake", but the manufacturers are the ones that give input as far as what exactly they want to see, and what the cake should be made with.

[SteVTEC]

Originally Posted by nmulax

I completely agree. I hate to generalize... but I'm sure a number of the 5 and 7 owners are older individuals who may find the technology BMW incorporates (especially I-Drive) confusing and therefor give a lower satistfaction rating. JD should stick to providing ratings based on statistical facts, not personal opinions.

You're missing the larger point entirely, because large numbers of personal opinions compiled together on the same subject are what become statistical facts. Like, xx% of e90post members, who responded to the poll think 'ABC' about 'XYZ'. Not really scientific, but it's now a statistical fact, based on personal opinions. Whether i-Drive is truly confusing or not is not a fact - it's a subjective opinion relevant only to the individual. And those personal opinions are what matter as far as vehicle decisions, if somebody will buy a car again or not, and it's what manufacturers need to see, and will pay big money for.

If BMW and its rivals all have similar control systems, but BMW's i-drive turns out having the highest number of dissatisfied users as a percentage despite the same level and depth of functionality in other systems, then guess what BMW is going to do? Tear down the top few controls systems in their rival's cars, see why there are far fewer complaints on those, and try to make improvements based on that as far as making their controls easier to use.

[needashower]

The Sonata is looking better and better.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

No that's just what the consumer gets to see, for free. Manufacturers license the full data and it costs them TONS of money to do so, but it's important data for them to see so that they can judge previous designs and where to go in the future. You want to see it all? You have to pay big for it.

What are you talking about? Sure it does. A lot of things in automotive design are purely subjective, so how are you supposed to know what people like or dislike as a whole, or what pleases or displeases them as a whole unless you have some sort of study and relevant data to go along with it? And then what metrics are you supposed to use to judge your own products with such that you can make future changes and improvements. Do you think this is ugly? Yes or no? Do you have enough room in the driver's seat? Are the cupholders in the right place? Are the controls intuitive and easy to use? All of that is subjective. So if one manufacturers sees that a higher percentage of their owners think their car is ugly, don't have enough room in the driver's seat, that the cupholders are in the wrong spot, and that the controls are overly complex and confusing than the competing car from a rival manufacturer, guess where they're going to be looking to improve their cars? Stats on owners subjective reactions to their vehicles are entirely important, entirely relevant, and manufacturers are looking for that all the time. In fact I bet the changes to the IQS study were made at the vehicle manufacturer's request. Manufacturers are JD Power's paying customers afterall, so they get what they want and pay for. We just get to see the "baked cake", but the manufacturers are the ones that give input as far as what exactly they want to see, and what the cake should be made with.

I understand what you are saying, and if I were designing/manufacturing cars I would want customer feedback as well, which I am sure the manufacturers obtain in spades way beyond JD's data.

However, I have always thought of JD as a reporter of quality (initial) - the two graphs that were posted are labeled "dependability study" and "quality study" neither of which SHOULD include subjective elements, i.e. do you "like" the ergonometric design of our cup holders?

My attention span for this topic is waning - anyone else?

[SteVTEC]

Originally Posted by Iceman

However, I have always thought of JD as a reporter of quality (initial) - the two graphs that were posted are labeled "dependability study" and "quality study" neither of which SHOULD include subjective elements, i.e. do you "like" the ergonometric design of our cup holders?

I think it's all psychological:

E90post members: "it brings the score down, therefore it should not be included because we're fine with it and it makes our cars look bad"

here's how BMW probably sees it though.

BMW AG: "our customers are complaining about all of these things that aren't included in the IQS study. They should be included so that the IQS study is more relevant and so that we get our moneys worth."

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

I think it's all psychological:

E90post members: "it brings the score down, therefore it should not be included because we're fine with it and it makes our cars look bad"

here's how BMW probably sees it though.

BMW AG: "our customers are complaining about all of these things that aren't included in the IQS study. They should be included so that the IQS study is more relevant and so that we get our moneys worth."

I got your point,to some it doesn't matter how great your argument is... I'm afraid you wouldn't be able to convert them it's like religion.
There was a consumer report on the 3 that I thought wasn't accurate but the JD power study I think is very good.
Once JD power called me about one of our Volvo heavy trucks on behalf of Volvo trucks.The survey took about half a hour and coverd designs,profitability,reliability,chances of buying more Volvo trucks in the future etc.

[Freudefahrer]

Just for fun, here's the breakdown of how different makes ranked based on each category:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...ESS01/60607024

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by ScBlacksunshine

Yeah just like I wouldn't kid myself, a Camry or Lexus IS drives like a E90

Exactly!
I don't buy cars like I do appliances. I don't have an emotional attachment to my toaster, wheres I do with my cars. Thus, I'd rather get the car that connects with me even if it means that it may have more issues or problems later....just not too many.

[noflash]

Owner Satisfaction is the only rating that matters.

BTW, I do have a deep emotional attachment to my toaster....

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by noflash

Owner Satisfaction is the only rating that matters.

BTW, I do have a deep emotional attachment to my toaster....

And she loves you back. She must be a real hotty.

[noflash]

She is... she recently burned me pretty bad though...

[Fastdriverinca999]

J.D. Power was getting a lot of consumer feedback regarding ergonomics and vehicle systems that were difficult to use so they redesigned the survey. if you take out the design aspect, BMW is on par with Toyota with regard to initial quailty and among the best in the industry

[herbz]

I wish people would understand that Personal Experience does NOT equal fact

I see too many people saying, "well I had problems with my BMW, so the fact is that BMW reliability sucks".

reliability isn't really a statistic that can be measured.

my e30 has 330k on it... does that mean I think BMW reliability > all? no. however what i do know, is that the e30 was well taken care of, and i'm positive that was a key factor in how long the engine and tranny have been able to last.

also, take into consideration that the average BMW owner buys his car to have a little "fun", aka more spirited driving than compared to a Toyota "A to B" driver.

and as we all know, constant spirited driving will lead to engine and transmission problems. wear and tear, happens on every car, and no Toyota and Lexus aren't immune and ridiculously reliabile. I've heard nightmare stories on their forums too.

[NaTuReB0Y]

If Chevrolet and FORD is the industrial average......

then there is a problem with the survey.

[Insider]

Scion is Toyota, yet it is on the opposite end. Hummer is the same engines and chassis as chevorlet. Again, on different ends. Makes no sense.

[Russellnyc]

Aw man, I just re-read this. I should have bought that 911 turbo... damn.