1 Series M or 11 Mustang GT??

[MadMan77]

Anyone for a tennis match?

[JimmyT]

Bringing popcorn! This looks like it is going nowhere fast!

[JB135MDCT]

Originally Posted by Judge

This has been said about the 135i but it's amazing how easily someone can fit in the back seat when their other option is walking or driving their own car.

Pretty Asian girls fit just fine. 6ft nephews not so much.

If only the Horse had IRS and DCT. Sad part is it has brembos unlike the shit M3 brakes on the M1. 20k difference? 36k vs 56k equivalent. Who needs all that extra cash?

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by MarcusDubya77

Which one and why? I ask because these are my two prime candidates when I PCS from Japan in Summer 2011.

To start, I don't think the GT compares to the 1M, mostly due to it's price point. It's performance numbers may be similar or close, but the 1M is in a different price category for most shoppers to compare.
So, a better comparison is the 135i and the GT.

It seems every time anyone compares a BMW to anything other than a BMW, you'll get the "they are totally different cars." comment.
People have even said that about a comparison between the A4 and 3 series sedan, and the 3 coupe vs A5 coupe.

If we were comparing a 135i to a 7 series, then we'd be talking about cars that are designed for different markets and intents.
That comparison has much greater differences.
A GT is quite comparable to a 135i.
Now that comparison will yield differences in how the car are designed, built, or even how they perform. But, they are still comparable.

We often see people claim this esoteric thing called "BMW refinement".
But, that needs explaining too. Sure, BMW engines are highly regarded for their engineering and design. As well, BMW suspensions are regarded as refined as well. However, you also hear and read of BMW's "over engineering", to such a point as being overly wrought and overly complex where it is not needed. iDrive comes to mind.

I accept that even a 1 series BMW has a certain level of engineering that is different than how Ford goes about doing things on something like a Mustang. However, these are simply different engineering approaches. Is the new Ford V8 really less "refined" than our N54/N55 engines? Ford has put in a considerable effort into building and refining the new V8 and especially the new V6, which stomps the 128/328i inline NA 6.
What about that refinement?

From what the automotive press has said about the new GT, it seems that Ford has done some considerable refinement on it's drive train, suspension, brakes, transmission, and interior design and materials.
From an enthusiast point of view, it's not fair to simply dismiss all that work with something so banal as to say, "It's still just a Ford."

For example, Ford has done an excellent job on it's new V6, which replaces the old engine, and has still kept the price of the new V6 Mustang nearly the same.
You can get a nicely sport equipped V6 Mustang with HID's, LSD, upgraded suspension with sways, and upgraded brakes for $30,600 MSRP, and selling for about $28k.
A comparable 328i MSRP $35,750 selling for about $34k.
Performance wise the Mustang will beat it in accel, where as the 128i would probably get the edge on handling.
So, for the added refinement BMW brings, you pay a bit more.
But, overall is the BMW that much better?
Well, that's for each driver to decide.
It may be viewed as vulgar, but some people prefer the cache of having that famous BMW logo on the hood.

As far as overall refinement in interior design and materials, the 1 doesn't have that. It's a pretty bare bones BMW.
Plus, people mention this "luxury" aspect of a BMW. That only belongs to BMW's at the 5 series and up, because the 1 and 3 have always been considered "near luxury", and to me that has more to do with the brand than anything truly tangible as "luxury" within the car itself.

Back to the "completely different car" thing.
The GT and the 135i are very comparable in terms of price, and the intended sport enthusiast driver.
These are both RWD coupes. They have front mounted engines.
They are offered in manual, automatic, and automated manual (new for BMW). The GT has a live rear axle, but comes with an LSD option. The 1 series has IRS, but no LSD.
Both cars come with all the modern drivers assists like; ABS, traction/stability.
Both cars are intended for an enthusiast where utility is not the major concern, so back seat space is not a big issue.
Both cars are performance oriented, and offer performance options to that end. For example, the Mustang offers different axle ratios, and performance brakes, and wheel/tire options.
The 135i has most of that built in to it's price point.

For all intents and purposes these car are very comparable.
No, they are not the same. But, that's more to do with engineering design philosophy. Yes, the will drive differently, and feel different going about their business. But, isn't that what we enthusiasts like?
I know I like having different automobile options that offer different driving experiences. When I shop for a new car I cross shop a number of brands and types of car. I may want a 4 door, or more luxury, or more performance, etc... But, I always drive the sportiest version I am willing to afford. Last time out I drove the RX8, EVO, STi, WRX, A4, 3 series, 1 series, Boxster, G8, CTS, 370Z, GTI, C350, TT
Some of those are quite different, but they all appeal to the enthusiast in me.

I too have not been a big fan of the most current Mustangs. But, this new one will be on my list next time around.
I think it's good to keep an open mind. American auto makers have finally got the swift kick to the pants that they needed, and the products are better than ever and worthy of consideration.

BTW, I still LOVE my 135i, and of course BMW will be on my short list every time. There is something about the overall package that goes beyond just the name.

[ORIGIN M.]

I have nothing but respect for Ford Motor Co, and would even work for them, BUT they build cars that are built in a different spirit to a BMW, and visa versa.

[amdmaxx]

They all are catering to the same markets, and they all copy each other and then some.
- Everyone tries to copy AUDI's interior qualities and design
- Everyone tries to copy BMW handling
- Everyone now looks up to Ford/Lincoln's Sync/My Touch Infotainment systems
etc, etc...
- Everyone wakes up to Hyundai's ultra-competitive nicely built cars and low ball pricing (think 1990 Lexus LS400, and across the whole brand now).

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

I have nothing but respect for Ford Motor Co, and would even work for them, BUT they build cars that are built in a different spirit to a BMW, and visa versa.

[JasonCSU]

Well said RPM90.

[Sdracing]

Totally different cars. But people saying the Ford is an inferior product are speaking from their heart but not based on facts.

The new chasis of the Mustang has consistently beaten the BMW in racing circuits. Consistently is not the best work, how about resoundingly.

While I went with the BMW, I still believe that in terms of reliability and chasis Ford > BMW IMHO. The new 5.0 engine is incredible. I needed something more professional than a 5.0 Mustang, already have a track car, and really like my wife's Audi. I chose the BMW because I like the smaller 1 series, reasonable gas mileage, great interior, and amazing handling.

Major hits on the 1 series: No LSD is a major fault of the 1 Series. (I just assumed it had one.)In all honesty, the drive train is a little sloppy and soft for my taste. The long throws between shifts is rediculous. While I have the sports suspension, the valving leaves something to be desired for my taste and is way too soft.

Maybe all of that is fixed in the M. Not sure....

[MarcusDubya77]

That was a great write up RPM90. I clearly understand that these are two different cars. i think I should have named this...If you had 42K to buy any car New or Used (well under 30K on the Ode) what would you buy??? It probably would have yielded less passionate results.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by JasonCSU

Well said RPM90.

...And, I thank you.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by MarcusDubya77

That was a great write up RPM90. I clearly understand that these are two different cars. i think I should have named this...If you had 42K to buy any car New or Used (well under 30K on the Ode) what would you buy??? It probably would have yielded less passionate results.

Thanks.

So now, you need to go drive these automobiles, and come back to give us your impressions.
Of course, you'll have to wait for the 1M though.

[MarcusDubya77]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Thanks.

So now, you need to go drive these automobiles, and come back to give us your impressions.
Of course, you'll have to wait for the 1M though.

Well, I really don't have that luxury. I could definitely give you a write up on say a Voxy, Silvia, Legnum, or Delica..Sort of hard being here in Japan to get a hold of European autos. Especially as far North as I am.

[roundel]

$30,500 Ford Mustang beats $150,000 European sports car

I have a $150,000 sports car in my parking garage, a handcrafted machine produced overseas in limited numbers. Next to it, I have a U.S.-made Ford Mustang GT, armadas of which will be sold for as little as $30,500.

I tested both the day before, so which to take out today just for the thrill?

"The 'Stang, please," I tell Paul and Hector, my trusty garage guys.

Paul raises his eyebrow. Seriously?

Times have changed. Changed in a whopping, Big Bang kind of way. Once hopeless and bumbling, Ford Motor Co. is now really cranking out the good stuff. And its new Mustang is about as good as it gets.

I'm reminded why as I aim the sparkling blue hood (the deep, lustrous paint is called "Kona Blue Metallic") on my way out of town.

Normally I nurse high-dollar rides over the canyon-sized cracks and craters in New York's West Side Highway as if guiding a colicky baby in a carriage. With the Mustang's high clearance and sturdy shocks, I bound over the choppy asphalt. Bulletproof.

On today's just-for-fun itinerary: I'm prowling for open, winding lanes where the V-8 can have its torque-mad way with the world. Under full throttle, the brand-new 5.0-liter motor sounds like Zeus hurling thunderbolts, channeling 412 horsepower and 390 pound-feet of torque.

Years ago it was inconceivable to have so much power at such a bargain price. This base coupe has more kick than the original V-10-powered Dodge Viper or a Ferrari 360 Modena.

And boy does it pull. At a stop light it yanks you, inexorably, toward the next traffic stop like a leashed bull mastiff, a kind of torque overload that's nearly impossible not to childishly indulge in over and over again.

The sound is bright, raw, delicious.

As for gas mileage, the V-8 manages 17 city and 26 highway and can be run on regular gasoline rather than premium with a slight reduction in power.

As driven, my test car was $42,305. It included most of the convenience and sport options, including navigation, improved Brembo brakes, 19-inch wheels and an electronic stability control meant for spirited driving.

So equipped, the GT was as much or more fun than any European or Japanese car at that same price.

Hard to believe that the Mustang is having its salad days all over again. Its 50th anniversary will be the pony car's next milestone, and the last few generations have shown every long year. Liver spots have included a cranky chassis, worn-out engine and middling electronics.

It got a major refresh last year, which helped considerably, but the V-8 still produced a miserly 315 horses.

The 2011 model, also available with a V-6, is minty fresh. Nicer to look at, better to listen to and easier to live with. Most surprising, it handles competently on swoopy roads.

You see, there have always been those muscle-car motor-heads who soup up American steel just to drag race. It passes for a good time in certain towns -- I should know, I grew up in one.

What those guys would never do is take a Mustang against a European sports car on a windy road. Partly because dudes who listened to Motley Crue and Judas Priest didn't associate with those who dug Depeche Mode and the Smiths -- but also because they'd get their butts kicked.

This Mustang is different. It still has an old-school live rear axle, which is cheap to produce but brutish. Yet engineers have tuned it to the point of elegance. Steady at speed and yet nimble in turns, the Mustang shows a lot of poise even on switchback roads.

I easily sustain a super sprint up and down careening hills, the sound of the 5.0-liters blowing up around me. Even the Fourth of July wasn't so cacophonous and lively.

While available as a six-speed automatic, let me say this: If you don't know how to drive a stick but are thinking of buying the new Mustang, learn. The six-speed, cue-ball-tipped stick is wondrous.

Finally, the interior. Somebody has figured out that the Mustang is more than the sum of its engine and exterior. The seats are comfortable; the two rear seats are somewhat accommodating, and though the interior is mostly plastic, it looks good.

And when I get lost on my wanders, I quickly punch up my location on the optional touch-screen navigation system.

For a thriftier gas and budget point, there's the brand-new 3.7-liter V-6, which gets up to 31 mpg highway with an auto transmission. For a base of $23,000, you still manage a prodigious 305 horses and 280 pound-feet of torque.

I've still got several hours before I need to be home. I don't really have to keep driving -- I've gotten the point -- but, well, seeing as I'm already out here.

That European machine in the garage can wait.

[bradleyland]

I'll tell you what my #1 take away from this thread is: We're incredibly lucky to be alive and drive cars in this time period. In 25 years I think we'll look at 2010 (or maybe a year or two down the road) like our parents look back at the cars they drove in the late sixties. We have so much choice. Cars are incredibly fast, safe, and reliable today.

Last night my girlfriend popped in the movie "A Single Man" (don't watch it, it's TERRIBLE). The lead character drives a 1958 Merc 220S coupe. Beautiful car! It was the only enjoyable thing in the entire film. Well, that and the period decor/architecture. But I digress. I can't wait to watch a movie 50 years from now, see a well kept "classic" 135i and tell my grandkids, "I used to own one of those."




Disclaimer: I don't know if the 135i will actually become a "classic". I'm just thinking out loud about things I think most car guys think about

[trahsub]

Who's the BOSS?

http://www.drivingenthusiast.net/sec-blog/?p=7440

[amdmaxx]

good catch

[BrokenVert]

I'd like to have a boss 429

[JimmyT]

I would just be happy to SEE a real BOSS 429 in the flesh!!! If the price for the BOSS 302 is in the 30K range, good luck finding one without 10-15K in dealer markups!!!

[BrokenVert]

That's another thing. How could they say that non-loaded mustangs don't sell? Every gt500 I've ever seen on a showroom floor was absent of nearly every option

[Tessio]

Delicious.

But cars are like chicks, lotta hotties, but some you just don't want to live with and that's purely a personal choice.

Where BMWs to me have always been strong is the overall dynamics. The way everything a driver interacts with comes together in a fluid cohesive experience. For me, nothing chafes driving a BMW, it just pours down a country road with me kayaking along. I can get in a new M3 and feel right at home. I'm not peering around a big hood scoop or finding an a-pillar always in the way, I'm not cursing or nursing a notchy shifter, I'm not aware of a seat that is starting to bug me or seat belt across my neck or touchy brakes or a whining mother-in-law. I'm simply looking out at the onrushing road and moving with the car. Very natural. I notice it more when I get out of other cars and get back in a bimmer. Great cars to drive every day. I hate to say it for fear of the flames to follow, but Honda and Mazda often get this right also. If the Mazdaspeed 3 wore a BMW badge as an entry level model it wouldn't surprise me - except for the 90's seat graphics of course.

The 135i doesn't feel fast to me. It obviously is fast and can be made more so, but it doesn't have to be. It feels like taking a puppy for a walk - eager and urgent and always willing to be yanked on a new path, but it isn't brutal. It is fun as crap to drive and that's what I find endearing so far. It is not overwhelming. I can enjoy it at 30 mph or at 90.

I hope to drive the new 5.0 soon, they're finally getting some 6-speeds around here. I've driven a lot of Mustangs over the years and they were fun to drive, but I was younger. What was fun for me then was different. For about a decade or so, I didn't notice ANYTHING else but performance and numbers. I drove cars with rust holes in the floor that I stopped up with beer cans and my start button was a screwdriver I stabbed into the dashboard so I could find it again. Anything more subtle than whiplash was boring. But now, in my 40s, simply going fast isn't enough any more. Been there, done that, and my feeling now is that I'd rather rent a hot rod than own one. I just want a daily driver that I love to drive, whatever it is. If the new Mustang turns out to be more fun than my 1, then by all means, make mine Kona Blue! To you young guys still crushing yourselves into the seats, howl at the moon baby! It's that time!

[JB135MDCT]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

I'd like to have a boss 429

Can you slap a DCT on a Cobra 428?

I will give the v6 and 5.0 a test drive soon and try to give an unbiased opinion. One showed up in my work parking lot, maybe he'll let me try it. Also a coworker bought a full up camaro, but it's a garage queen. I'm impressed, but it looks kind of big and heavy. Full brembos on the camaro, but the 5.0 only has brembos on the front.

[MarcusDubya77]

That was a question I had, about the brembos. I could buy a BB kit for a mustang for the same price that they charge, and save up for my own wheel tire package. Good insight though. Anybody have experience with an RS4. I have been looking at those, and they are pretty f'in tough.