135i or 08 STi or EVO X??

[sethchan]

Originally Posted by damian

Does the STi look faster than it is? It's a hatch that does 0-60 in under 5 seconds. I think it looks exactly like what it is: a rally car.

Does it?

[sethchan]

Originally Posted by damian

Not liking its looks is a different thing entirely. The implication was that the others are "all show no go" types. That's silly, because aside from the too-big wing on the previous STi's, they're pretty mundane looking, though rugged. You just have to be wise and swap the wing and skip the gold wheels like I did.

But that wing!

Take the wing away and it's not ridiculous looking, though not my cup of tea. It's just an extremely hot little car that probably give you a lot of performance for the money.

But with the wing, which the EVO X still has, it's more like:

Especially the first one. Please tell me you've seen the first one.

I know these are both fast cars. But they are not airplanes. They do not fly.

[looking]

I don't want to hate, I was a previous STi owner myself, but how much "new" tech is actually in those cars to warrant their prices?? I mean 50+for an EVO?

I know a lot of the marketing says they put tons of tech into the cars, but what actual new tech are is in the cars, does the STi have a new AWD system (one that's different from last gen STi), does the EVo have a new Active Yaw???

[damian]

Originally Posted by sethchan

Does it?

yes

[MrRoboto]

^^^To each his/her own I guess. Personally I dont want a car that looks like it is more at home in a rally race then on the street.

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

^^^To each his/her own I guess. Personally I dont want a car that looks like it is more at home in a rally race then on the street.

At my age I should want that but I'm so over it. I'm looking for discreet speed.

[MrRoboto]

^^^ If I can achieve a look similar to the white 1 in your sig I will be a happy man.

[damian]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

^^^To each his/her own I guess. Personally I dont want a car that looks like it is more at home in a rally race then on the street.

That's fine, but it's a deflection from the issue. The disputed statement is "I'd rather have a car that's faster than it looks than a car that looks faster than it is."

The STi and the Evo do not fit the latter, at all. They are fast, and don't even necessarily look like it. Whether you like the looks is irrelevant.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Guerillah

The EVO X has a lot more technology in its chassis, brakes, awd, suspension than the 135i.

Really? How so?

The chassis is based on a FWD sedan platform, the brakes are probably similar and the suspension has absolutely nothing innovative in it.

The only bit that is technologically more advanced is the AWD system - and it's a very good one. Especially that active center diff... Essentially that's why you pay $15k more over the basic Lancer.

But it adds technlogical complexity, weight and a heavy layer between your inputs and the car's outputs. For example - it's very easy to drift with it right from the very first drive - I did it with the wife in the passenger seat and the salesman in the back on my 3rd corner. It's also difficult to overcook it or spin it - you have to do really dumb things in it. That to me makes it a less desirable driver's car, because it cushions you and it's harder to learn from the mistakes. What I am lookiing for is a more honest driver's car: powerful engine up front, RWD and a balanced chassis, to make my own mistakes, learn, and have the most possible fun in the process. That's just my opinion, there is no need to flame or argue the point, I'm just as happy that the Evo exists at all in the US...

So my point was that it's a $15k drivetrain in a $15k chassis, with another few grand thrown in to various bits (seats, whatever). There's nothing wrong with this approach, I'm not knocking it down, I just want something else right now...

I bet if they ever do a comparo on a road course, the evo x being heavier and slower in a straight line will demolish a 135i due to its superior grip, handling, braking.

1. It does not have better braking.
2. The superior grip is strictly a function of better tires - put the same tires in the 135 and it will be virtually identical.
3. I doubt it has superior handling - perhaps you meant a tighter suspension? The Evo is not very well balanced and uses that complex AWD system to compensate and make it handle more like a - get this - RWD car. :smile: The 135i is far more transparent in this regard, starting from a better premise - 50-50 distribution. Also, there is truly nothing to separate the suspension setups - both have struts up front, and the BMW rear suspension is actually probably better.

I've driven the Evo VIII and IX MR at a time where I drove a 330i ZHP - and felt it didn't really give anything away to the Evos. Sure, the suspension was not as hard - but I could have changed that anytime I wanted. Again, I could have thrown in a set of DOT R tires but didn't feel the need to change street tires every 5k miles... :iono:

I am fairly convinced that a 135i with suspension and track tires will be the equal of a stock Evo - perhaps even faster. There is no magic here...

The EVO X has only been out for two weeks and one shop already has it making near 350awhp/tq on 91 octane gas with nothing more than bolt ons. Theres currently no way to tune the ECU so thats pretty impressive.

That's all very well and truly fine - but irrelevant to me. For almost a year now, there have been piggybacks for the 335i that put out 340WHP and 390WTQ. Other bolt-ons get you to 400WHP and 450WTQ. There is at least one shop in the US - Dinan - that obtains the same results while matching the factory warranty with a reflash.

So what?

I drive a 335i and all I did to it was a mild boost controller - but on this short stretch of highway near my house I can get it to bump into the speed limiter (150 mph) without breaking a sweat (empty road, right time of the day and all the caveats). Someone with the Dinan reflash (all else stock) ran it to 175 mph - and it had more.

When you can do 150 mph so easily, it's time to evaluate how and when you really want to die. I'm convinced that a tuned 135 or 335 will be able to run into the speed limiter on many tracks in the US - certainly at Summit Main where I go for track days.

I have absolutely no desire for a more powerful car. 1/4 mile times mean absolutely nothing to me. And I don't want to have to install a rollcage in my daily driver to make sure I survive...


Like I said, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong, as I have been so many times in the past, :smile:, and there is no need to try to "prove" me wrong - I'll still get a BMW as my next car.

[MrRoboto]

Originally Posted by damian

That's fine, but it's a deflection from the issue. The disputed statement is "I'd rather have a car that's faster than it looks than a car that looks faster than it is."

The STi and the Evo do not fit the latter, at all. They are fast, and don't even necessarily look like it. Whether you like the looks is irrelevant.

^^^Irrelevant? You stated that the car looks like a rally car and I gave an opinion.

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by adc

Really? How so?

The chassis is based on a FWD sedan platform, the brakes are probably similar and the suspension has absolutely nothing innovative in it.

The only bit that is technologically more advanced is the AWD system - and it's a very good one. Especially that active center diff... Essentially that's why you pay $15k more over the basic Lancer.

But it adds technlogical complexity, weight and a heavy layer between your inputs and the car's outputs. For example - it's very easy to drift with it right from the very first drive - I did it with the wife in the passenger seat and the salesman in the back on my 3rd corner. It's also difficult to overcook it or spin it - you have to do really dumb things in it. That to me makes it a less desirable driver's car, because it cushions you and it's harder to learn from the mistakes. What I am lookiing for is a more honest driver's car: powerful engine up front, RWD and a balanced chassis, to make my own mistakes, learn, and have the most possible fun in the process. That's just my opinion, there is no need to flame or argue the point, I'm just as happy that the Evo exists at all in the US...

So my point was that it's a $15k drivetrain in a $15k chassis, with another few grand thrown in to various bits (seats, whatever). There's nothing wrong with this approach, I'm not knocking it down, I just want something else right now...




1. It does not have better braking.
2. The superior grip is strictly a function of better tires - put the same tires in the 135 and it will be virtually identical.
3. I doubt it has superior handling - perhaps you meant a tighter suspension? The Evo is not very well balanced and uses that complex AWD system to compensate and make it handle more like a - get this - RWD car. :smile: The 135i is far more transparent in this regard, starting from a better premise - 50-50 distribution. Also, there is truly nothing to separate the suspension setups - both have struts up front, and the BMW rear suspension is actually probably better.

I've driven the Evo VIII and IX MR at a time where I drove a 330i ZHP - and felt it didn't really give anything away to the Evos. Sure, the suspension was not as hard - but I could have changed that anytime I wanted. Again, I could have thrown in a set of DOT R tires but didn't feel the need to change street tires every 5k miles... :iono:

I am fairly convinced that a 135i with suspension and track tires will be the equal of a stock Evo - perhaps even faster. There is no magic here...



That's all very well and truly fine - but irrelevant to me. For almost a year now, there have been piggybacks for the 335i that put out 340WHP and 390WTQ. Other bolt-ons get you to 400WHP and 450WTQ. There is at least one shop in the US - Dinan - that obtains the same results while matching the factory warranty with a reflash.

So what?

I drive a 335i and all I did to it was a mild boost controller - but on this short stretch of highway near my house I can get it to bump into the speed limiter (150 mph) without breaking a sweat (empty road, right time of the day and all the caveats). Someone with the Dinan reflash (all else stock) ran it to 175 mph - and it had more.

When you can do 150 mph so easily, it's time to evaluate how and when you really want to die. I'm convinced that a tuned 135 or 335 will be able to run into the speed limiter on many tracks in the US - certainly at Summit Main where I go for track days.

I have absolutely no desire for a more powerful car. 1/4 mile times mean absolutely nothing to me. And I don't want to have to install a rollcage in my daily driver to make sure I survive...


Like I said, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong, as I have been so many times in the past, :smile:, and there is no need to try to "prove" me wrong - I'll still get a BMW as my next car.

There are no words I can say that can describe my thoughts on your post. So I'll just do this.

[damian]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

^^^Irrelevant? You stated that the car looks like a rally car and I gave an opinion.

I said it looks like a rally car because the person i was quoting asked if it did. It's irrelevant to the issue of whether it looks fast, but isn't.

[looking]

Originally Posted by adc

Really? How so?

The chassis is based on a FWD sedan platform, the brakes are probably similar and the suspension has absolutely nothing innovative in it.

The only bit that is technologically more advanced is the AWD system - and it's a very good one. Especially that active center diff... Essentially that's why you pay $15k more over the basic Lancer.

But it adds technlogical complexity, weight and a heavy layer between your inputs and the car's outputs. For example - it's very easy to drift with it right from the very first drive - I did it with the wife in the passenger seat and the salesman in the back on my 3rd corner. It's also difficult to overcook it or spin it - you have to do really dumb things in it. That to me makes it a less desirable driver's car, because it cushions you and it's harder to learn from the mistakes. What I am lookiing for is a more honest driver's car: powerful engine up front, RWD and a balanced chassis, to make my own mistakes, learn, and have the most possible fun in the process. That's just my opinion, there is no need to flame or argue the point, I'm just as happy that the Evo exists at all in the US...

So my point was that it's a $15k drivetrain in a $15k chassis, with another few grand thrown in to various bits (seats, whatever). There's nothing wrong with this approach, I'm not knocking it down, I just want something else right now...




1. It does not have better braking.
2. The superior grip is strictly a function of better tires - put the same tires in the 135 and it will be virtually identical.
3. I doubt it has superior handling - perhaps you meant a tighter suspension? The Evo is not very well balanced and uses that complex AWD system to compensate and make it handle more like a - get this - RWD car. :smile: The 135i is far more transparent in this regard, starting from a better premise - 50-50 distribution. Also, there is truly nothing to separate the suspension setups - both have struts up front, and the BMW rear suspension is actually probably better.

I've driven the Evo VIII and IX MR at a time where I drove a 330i ZHP - and felt it didn't really give anything away to the Evos. Sure, the suspension was not as hard - but I could have changed that anytime I wanted. Again, I could have thrown in a set of DOT R tires but didn't feel the need to change street tires every 5k miles... :iono:

I am fairly convinced that a 135i with suspension and track tires will be the equal of a stock Evo - perhaps even faster. There is no magic here...



That's all very well and truly fine - but irrelevant to me. For almost a year now, there have been piggybacks for the 335i that put out 340WHP and 390WTQ. Other bolt-ons get you to 400WHP and 450WTQ. There is at least one shop in the US - Dinan - that obtains the same results while matching the factory warranty with a reflash.

So what?

I drive a 335i and all I did to it was a mild boost controller - but on this short stretch of highway near my house I can get it to bump into the speed limiter (150 mph) without breaking a sweat (empty road, right time of the day and all the caveats). Someone with the Dinan reflash (all else stock) ran it to 175 mph - and it had more.

When you can do 150 mph so easily, it's time to evaluate how and when you really want to die. I'm convinced that a tuned 135 or 335 will be able to run into the speed limiter on many tracks in the US - certainly at Summit Main where I go for track days.

I have absolutely no desire for a more powerful car. 1/4 mile times mean absolutely nothing to me. And I don't want to have to install a rollcage in my daily driver to make sure I survive...


Like I said, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong, as I have been so many times in the past, :smile:, and there is no need to try to "prove" me wrong - I'll still get a BMW as my next car.

I think you make a very very good point! The STi and Evo might have been the ultimate performance for the buck car when they came to North America in 2004, but now the performance standards of cars have all be raised. When the STi and EVo came out 300 hp was M3 territory, but now most entry level lux car is at 300 hp. Back then STi and Evo marketed their high tech AWD, but now Infiniti, BMW and Merc all have ones that are just as technical.

I just don't know how people can see the STi and Evo as being a bargain any more.

[OniKoroshi]

LMAO at the 135 having the same grip as an Evo X if they had the same tires.

Let's see a 135 with a .99 on the skidpad.

[Evolved]

Originally Posted by adc

Really? How so?

The chassis is based on a FWD sedan platform, the brakes are probably similar and the suspension has absolutely nothing innovative in it.

The only bit that is technologically more advanced is the AWD system - and it's a very good one. Especially that active center diff... Essentially that's why you pay $15k more over the basic Lancer.

But it adds technlogical complexity, weight and a heavy layer between your inputs and the car's outputs. For example - it's very easy to drift with it right from the very first drive - I did it with the wife in the passenger seat and the salesman in the back on my 3rd corner. It's also difficult to overcook it or spin it - you have to do really dumb things in it. That to me makes it a less desirable driver's car, because it cushions you and it's harder to learn from the mistakes. What I am lookiing for is a more honest driver's car: powerful engine up front, RWD and a balanced chassis, to make my own mistakes, learn, and have the most possible fun in the process. That's just my opinion, there is no need to flame or argue the point, I'm just as happy that the Evo exists at all in the US...

So my point was that it's a $15k drivetrain in a $15k chassis, with another few grand thrown in to various bits (seats, whatever). There's nothing wrong with this approach, I'm not knocking it down, I just want something else right now...




1. It does not have better braking.
2. The superior grip is strictly a function of better tires - put the same tires in the 135 and it will be virtually identical.
3. I doubt it has superior handling - perhaps you meant a tighter suspension? The Evo is not very well balanced and uses that complex AWD system to compensate and make it handle more like a - get this - RWD car. :smile: The 135i is far more transparent in this regard, starting from a better premise - 50-50 distribution. Also, there is truly nothing to separate the suspension setups - both have struts up front, and the BMW rear suspension is actually probably better.

I've driven the Evo VIII and IX MR at a time where I drove a 330i ZHP - and felt it didn't really give anything away to the Evos. Sure, the suspension was not as hard - but I could have changed that anytime I wanted. Again, I could have thrown in a set of DOT R tires but didn't feel the need to change street tires every 5k miles... :iono:

I am fairly convinced that a 135i with suspension and track tires will be the equal of a stock Evo - perhaps even faster. There is no magic here...



That's all very well and truly fine - but irrelevant to me. For almost a year now, there have been piggybacks for the 335i that put out 340WHP and 390WTQ. Other bolt-ons get you to 400WHP and 450WTQ. There is at least one shop in the US - Dinan - that obtains the same results while matching the factory warranty with a reflash.

So what?

I drive a 335i and all I did to it was a mild boost controller - but on this short stretch of highway near my house I can get it to bump into the speed limiter (150 mph) without breaking a sweat (empty road, right time of the day and all the caveats). Someone with the Dinan reflash (all else stock) ran it to 175 mph - and it had more.

When you can do 150 mph so easily, it's time to evaluate how and when you really want to die. I'm convinced that a tuned 135 or 335 will be able to run into the speed limiter on many tracks in the US - certainly at Summit Main where I go for track days.

I have absolutely no desire for a more powerful car. 1/4 mile times mean absolutely nothing to me. And I don't want to have to install a rollcage in my daily driver to make sure I survive...


Like I said, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong, as I have been so many times in the past, :smile:, and there is no need to try to "prove" me wrong - I'll still get a BMW as my next car.

I disagree. And I love the bullshit tag line at the end. As if an open discussion is some how really an agenda to try to "prove" you wrong.

[OniKoroshi]

Tell me about it. Less fan boy statements, more facts.

[looking]

Evolved

It is a surprise that you would disagree? you drive a Evo after all.

[Evolved]

Originally Posted by excel

Evolved

It is a surprise that you would disagree? you drive a Evo after all.

I was waiting for that. I just sold my Gti making that 2 VW's I have owned, 1 nissan, 1 ford (mustang GT), 1 chevy (camaro), and a cadillac. So yeah, I'm totally biased. I buy cars based on the actual car it's self, not the badge on the hood. Being that I have owned many different makes that also means I am on many, many message boards and read up on all makes of cars, particularly performance cars.

Not to mention I'm selling the Evo to get the 135i.

[Guerillah]

Originally Posted by adc

Really? How so?

The chassis is based on a FWD sedan platform, the brakes are probably similar and the suspension has absolutely nothing innovative in it.

The chassis isnt based on anything, its a chassis made for fwd, rwd, awd. It is used in many different cars. Theres nothing innovative about the 1 series suspension and if there is please tell me. The base lancer chassis is something like 50% stiffer than the EVO IX chassis so they did improve upon it, and the EVO X gets further chassis stiffening via extra welds and reinforcements. As for the brakes, the EVO X has brembos front and rear, a far cry from regular lancer brakes. It stops 60-0 in 110ft, better than the 135i results I have seen from overseas.

The only bit that is technologically more advanced is the AWD system - and it's a very good one. Especially that active center diff... Essentially that's why you pay $15k more over the basic Lancer.

It has a tranny which can withstand 1000awhp, pretty impressive if you ask me. It has 3 LSD's in it, 135i = 0. It has electronic goodies which aid the car in going fast, not slowing it down.

But it adds technlogical complexity, weight and a heavy layer between your inputs and the car's outputs. For example - it's very easy to drift with it right from the very first drive - I did it with the wife in the passenger seat and the salesman in the back on my 3rd corner. It's also difficult to overcook it or spin it - you have to do really dumb things in it. That to me makes it a less desirable driver's car, because it cushions you and it's harder to learn from the mistakes. What I am lookiing for is a more honest driver's car: powerful engine up front, RWD and a balanced chassis, to make my own mistakes, learn, and have the most possible fun in the process. That's just my opinion, there is no need to flame or argue the point, I'm just as happy that the Evo exists at all in the US...

The EVO X has one of the more direct steering you will find on any production car, read review they applaud its steering response and ability to go exactly where you point it. As for the test drive you are talking about, you are comparing a EVO IX to a X, they are two completely different handling cars. The problem that plagues AWD cars is understeer usually, the EVO X has all but gotten rid of it for a more neutral feel much like a RWD car but with more grip.

So my point was that it's a $15k drivetrain in a $15k chassis, with another few grand thrown in to various bits (seats, whatever). There's nothing wrong with this approach, I'm not knocking it down, I just want something else right now...

The car is a bargain for what you get, whether the base car costs 15k or not. The only similarity between the two is the chassis/interior they share.

1. It does not have better braking. Yes it does, with im betting better pads/fluid for actually tracking the car.
2. The superior grip is strictly a function of better tires - put the same tires in the 135 and it will be virtually identical. The EVO X has 245's on all four corners with a very sophisticated AWD system. I want to see a 135i pull .99g on the skidpad. The EVO X pulls more G's than a C6 Z06 with 315 rears.
3. I doubt it has superior handling - perhaps you meant a tighter suspension? The Evo is not very well balanced and uses that complex AWD system to compensate and make it handle more like a - get this - RWD car. :smile: The 135i is far more transparent in this regard, starting from a better premise - 50-50 distribution. Also, there is truly nothing to separate the suspension setups - both have struts up front, and the BMW rear suspension is actually probably better. The EVO is very well balanced, read any review of it. You are getting the last gen and this one mixed up I think? They are completely different.

I've driven the Evo VIII and IX MR at a time where I drove a 330i ZHP - and felt it didn't really give anything away to the Evos. Sure, the suspension was not as hard - but I could have changed that anytime I wanted. Again, I could have thrown in a set of DOT R tires but didn't feel the need to change street tires every 5k miles... :iono:

I am fairly convinced that a 135i with suspension and track tires will be the equal of a stock Evo - perhaps even faster. There is no magic here...

That's all very well and truly fine - but irrelevant to me. For almost a year now, there have been piggybacks for the 335i that put out 340WHP and 390WTQ. Other bolt-ons get you to 400WHP and 450WTQ. There is at least one shop in the US - Dinan - that obtains the same results while matching the factory warranty with a reflash.

Those big numbers are on 97+ octane gas or higher until just recently when they started putting downpipes on. It seems the turbo is near maxed at 400~whp with all the boltons you can do. Upgrading the turbos on these isnt going to be cheap I am betting.

So what?

I drive a 335i and all I did to it was a mild boost controller - but on this short stretch of highway near my house I can get it to bump into the speed limiter (150 mph) without breaking a sweat (empty road, right time of the day and all the caveats). Someone with the Dinan reflash (all else stock) ran it to 175 mph - and it had more.

When you can do 150 mph so easily, it's time to evaluate how and when you really want to die. I'm convinced that a tuned 135 or 335 will be able to run into the speed limiter on many tracks in the US - certainly at Summit Main where I go for track days.

I have absolutely no desire for a more powerful car. 1/4 mile times mean absolutely nothing to me. And I don't want to have to install a rollcage in my daily driver to make sure I survive...


Like I said, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong, as I have been so many times in the past, :smile:, and there is no need to try to "prove" me wrong - I'll still get a BMW as my next car.

I respect your opinion and I like the 135i it just doesnt have the same amount as engineering in the handling aspect of the car as the EVO X does.

Bold are mine..

[looking]

^^^

Just because you have owned different cars and are on different boards doesn't make you unbiased. I'm sure you have a favorite car. To be honest, it's not a big deal if you are biased, I mean adc was biases as well, we all are.

I think you can't compare cars until the numbers and more detailed reviews come out.

[MrRoboto]

Thats it Im getting an EVO.

[Evolved]

Originally Posted by excel

^^^

Just because you have owned different cars and are on different boards doesn't make you unbiased. I'm sure you have a favorite car. To be honest, it's not a big deal if you are biased, I mean adc was biases as well, we all are.

I think you can't compare cars until the numbers and more detailed reviews come out.

Believe whatever you want to, clearly me telling you how I feel on the matter means nothing.