feeling dejected, time to cut bait? 135i w/12k miles looking at new transmission

[crvz]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

I'm telling ya - I know it's a step down in "prestige" (whatever that is - I only care about enjoying the drive), but the Focus RS is looking awesome.
4 doors, AWD, 315 HP or better...
It probably won't have the torque of the 135, and it will be a hair heavier, but Subaru will no longer dominate the AWD hatch market unless they step up with the next-gen STi.

I wonder how that would compare to the CLA45 AMG. Not a hatch, but four doors and ample power (though at a $10k+ premium).

I'm headed up to the dealer later today to chat with a few folks.

[Cavpilot2k]

Originally Posted by crvz

I wonder how that would compare to the CLA45 AMG. Not a hatch, but four doors and ample power (though at a $10k+ premium).

I'm headed up to the dealer later today to chat with a few folks.

The CLA 45 is great on paper, but I've heard from several who have driven it that it doesn't satisfy. It isn't sharp enough, and I am in the boat of those who don't like the looks of it. The rear 1/3 is atrocious (I realize that is subjective, but I have yet to talk to anyone who actually likes it).

In contrast, even though I am not normally a big "hot hatch" fan, I really like the look of the Focus RS. The Focus is a solid and actually pretty decent chassis, and the RS gives the practical large-ish hatch a solid performance kick in the pants. I also like the ST, but wouldn't consider it due to being FWD. AWD and the extra power, suspension, etc is a game-changer.

[Josh (PA)]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

The CLA 45 is great on paper, but I've heard from several who have driven it that it doesn't satisfy. It isn't sharp enough, and I am in the boat of those who don't like the looks of it. The rear 1/3 is atrocious (I realize that is subjective, but I have yet to talk to anyone who actually likes it).

In contrast, even though I am not normally a big "hot hatch" fan, I really like the look of the Focus RS. The Focus is a solid and actually pretty decent chassis, and the RS gives the practical large-ish hatch a solid performance kick in the pants. I also like the ST, but wouldn't consider it due to being FWD. AWD and the extra power, suspension, etc is a game-changer.

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by Josh (PA)

[KNS]

I was going to say the CLA is Front Wheel Drive (which is a step in the wrong direction for Mercedes) but the tricycle picture sums it up perfectly.

[Esteban]

The CLA45 AMG 4 cylinder turbo engine and the 7-speed DCT are nice. So is all-wheel drive. The looks of the car? Meh.

[Silenus]

So you had an EVAP leak and your transmission is grinding (which is typically caused by conditions or outside influence), and you think this car is a lemon. You are overreacting. Just enjoy the car.

Also, I'm a BMW tech and have worked on hundreds of 135is. I'm yet to see a manual transmission fail.

[edisapimp]

Originally Posted by Silenus

So you had an EVAP leak and your transmission is grinding (which is typically caused by conditions or outside influence), and you think this car is a lemon. You are overreacting. Just enjoy the car.

Also, I'm a BMW tech and have worked on hundreds of 135is. I'm yet to see a manual transmission fail.

Silenus, I respect your authority on the matter, but I just have to ask, let's say his transmission has failed, based on what you said about having yet to see a manual transmission fail, wouldn't that kind of rule this car in as being faulty?

What do you mean when you say "typically caused by conditions or outside influence"? Do you mean driver input? I sense that you don't think the issues the OP has so far experienced seem to be a big deal, as a BMW tech I really respect your input more than 99% of what I might ever read on a forum, but what would have to go wrong in 12k miles for you to consider the fact that this particular car may in fact be "lemon-ish"? Genuinely curious.

[champignon]

A car is just a collection of parts some of which work together to form systems. While I think it is possible that one could get a faulty frame, or have a body that went together in a bad way, I think it is a stretch to say that just because A & B have failed, that C, D, or E will be more likely to fail in the future.

The exception would be if the car had been subject to some sort of severe trauma, or immersion (such as flood damage). But if we are talking about a one-owner car that has simply had a couple of items or systems fail on it over a period of time, I'd just attribute that to bad luck and have no expectations one way or the other about reliability of the car going forward after this current failure is fixed.

Any other interpretation is either based upon superstition, or voodoo, basically.

The whole idea of "lemon" cars is mostly a political reaction to complaining constituents. It dates from the time, decades ago, when the US auto industry was in the toilet and the products they were producing were of extremely low quality. What was once a sort of consumer protection regulation has since become a way for owners to ditch cars due to either buyers' remorse, or poor dealer service after the sale.

[Silenus]

Originally Posted by edisapimp

Silenus, I respect your authority on the matter, but I just have to ask, let's say his transmission has failed, based on what you said about having yet to see a manual transmission fail, wouldn't that kind of rule this car in as being faulty?

What do you mean when you say "typically caused by conditions or outside influence"? Do you mean driver input? I sense that you don't think the issues the OP has so far experienced seem to be a big deal, as a BMW tech I really respect your input more than 99% of what I might ever read on a forum, but what would have to go wrong in 12k miles for you to consider the fact that this particular car may in fact be "lemon-ish"? Genuinely curious.

To sum it up, I feel like the most likely reason for his transmission to have failed is driver input (abuse or poor technique). It's known to be a reliable transmission. When synchros grind on low-mileage vehicles it usually happens during the break-in procedure. Could have been OP, someone else he knew driving it, or during pre-delivery inspection. All that being said, it IS possible there was a factory defect (underfilled tranny, foreign object). The rest of the car is a 2013 135i, a moderately reliable car, and I wouldn't tie 2 early defects into a long-term problem vehicle.

For it to be a real lemon it would need to have the same problem 3 times, be in the shop 30 days for a problem, or have the badge "X5" installed on the rear hatch (kidding ). Customers LOVE to throw that word around when the remorse sets in, but it needs to meet the legal definition.

[Silenus]

Originally Posted by champignon

A car is just a collection of parts some of which work together to form systems. While I think it is possible that one could get a faulty frame, or have a body that went together in a bad way, I think it is a stretch to say that just because A & B have failed, that C, D, or E will be more likely to fail in the future.

The exception would be if the car had been subject to some sort of severe trauma, or immersion (such as flood damage). But if we are talking about a one-owner car that has simply had a couple of items or systems fail on it over a period of time, I'd just attribute that to bad luck and have no expectations one way or the other about reliability of the car going forward after this current failure is fixed.

Any other interpretation is either based upon superstition, or voodoo, basically.

The whole idea of "lemon" cars is mostly a political reaction to complaining constituents. It dates from the time, decades ago, when the US auto industry was in the toilet and the products they were producing were of extremely low quality. What was once a sort of consumer protection regulation has since become a way for owners to ditch cars due to either buyers' remorse, or poor dealer service after the sale.

Yes. All of this. Very good post.

[crvz]

Originally Posted by Silenus

So you had an EVAP leak and your transmission is grinding (which is typically caused by conditions or outside influence), and you think this car is a lemon. You are overreacting. Just enjoy the car.

Also, I'm a BMW tech and have worked on hundreds of 135is. I'm yet to see a manual transmission fail.

I've never dropped the clutch, been to the track, or otherwise abused the transmission in some sort of showy maneuver. I taught myself to drive stick 20 years ago, and have driven them throughout that time, but that's not to say I don't have bad habits. I'm unaware of them if so, but could bad habits alone lead to failed synchros (which is my assumption) in so few miles? Certainly, in the 5 times its been to the dealer for days at a time, a one-off event could have occurred in their hands.

You also forgot the failed charge pipe. That sucked, as it basically left me stranded.

[crvz]

Originally Posted by champignon

A car is just a collection of parts some of which work together to form systems. While I think it is possible that one could get a faulty frame, or have a body that went together in a bad way, I think it is a stretch to say that just because A & B have failed, that C, D, or E will be more likely to fail in the future.

The exception would be if the car had been subject to some sort of severe trauma, or immersion (such as flood damage). But if we are talking about a one-owner car that has simply had a couple of items or systems fail on it over a period of time, I'd just attribute that to bad luck and have no expectations one way or the other about reliability of the car going forward after this current failure is fixed.

Any other interpretation is either based upon superstition, or voodoo, basically.

The whole idea of "lemon" cars is mostly a political reaction to complaining constituents. It dates from the time, decades ago, when the US auto industry was in the toilet and the products they were producing were of extremely low quality. What was once a sort of consumer protection regulation has since become a way for owners to ditch cars due to either buyers' remorse, or poor dealer service after the sale.

Agreed on all fronts, this is more of an emotional response and what do I want to do moving forward thread. I know the legal definition of lemon is specific, and any mention in this thread is more of a colloquial use. I've not approached lemon laws in my experiences, but I am unsatisfied with the car. It's 2 years old, I've put 12k miles on it, I've had three significant warranty issues. My father-in-law has a 2001 330ci that he bought new and hasnt had a single problem with it (admittedly it's low miles, I think he's around 60k). I had that expectation going into my purchase (I'm also a low mileage city user like him), and I've been quite disappointed.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by crvz

Agreed on all fronts, this is more of an emotional response and what do I want to do moving forward thread. I know the legal definition of lemon is specific, and any mention in this thread is more of a colloquial use. I've not approached lemon laws in my experiences, but I am unsatisfied with the car. It's 2 years old, I've put 12k miles on it, I've had three significant warranty issues. My father-in-law has a 2001 330ci that he bought new and hasnt had a single problem with it (admittedly it's low miles, I think he's around 60k). I had that expectation going into my purchase (I'm also a low mileage city user like him), and I've been quite disappointed.

I think the bottom line is that you are unhappy with the car. It sounds very much like you would prefer to get rid of it soon and replace it with something else. You really don't need any more justification than that. We all have bought things that we thought we would love but instead we have come to dislike or even detest them. The reasons are usually subjective. There is nothing wrong with being subjective, it is how we function as human beings who are fortunate enough to live in societies and situations where we have CHOICES.

I have no opinion one way or the other as to whether you should seek or receive some sort of accommodation from your dealer or from BMW itself. You have commercial relationships with both of these parties and what you do and what they do are part and parcel of those relationships. I wish you the best in attaining whatever you want to get out of the situation you find yourself in.

If you truly feel that you can't trust the car or no longer enjoy owning it, my advice would be to get rid of it and get something else. Life is too short to own what should be for you a fun performance car, but in reality you have simply grown to hate it. Good luck.

[edisapimp]

Originally Posted by champignon

A car is just a collection of parts some of which work together to form systems. While I think it is possible that one could get a faulty frame, or have a body that went together in a bad way, I think it is a stretch to say that just because A & B have failed, that C, D, or E will be more likely to fail in the future.

The exception would be if the car had been subject to some sort of severe trauma, or immersion (such as flood damage). But if we are talking about a one-owner car that has simply had a couple of items or systems fail on it over a period of time, I'd just attribute that to bad luck and have no expectations one way or the other about reliability of the car going forward after this current failure is fixed.

Any other interpretation is either based upon superstition, or voodoo, basically.

The whole idea of "lemon" cars is mostly a political reaction to complaining constituents. It dates from the time, decades ago, when the US auto industry was in the toilet and the products they were producing were of extremely low quality. What was once a sort of consumer protection regulation has since become a way for owners to ditch cars due to either buyers' remorse, or poor dealer service after the sale.

I tend to agree with most of what you said, with a couple of exceptions. The first being that consumer protection with regards to automobiles is something that dates from decades ago, when in reality, consumer protection has been commonplace in our country for greater than a century. It's one of the things (along with a huge supply of resources and man-power) that has made the United States a successful economic world power. In lay-terms, consumers could rest assured that products made in our country could not legally be made like shit. It's why "Made in the USA" used to be a considered an exceptionally good thing. That said, the state lemon laws are just an extension of implied warranties; a company can't legally sell you something that you can't use for its intended purpose. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think that putting legal pressure on automakers to consistently produce a usable product (as happened with the Magnuson-Moss Act) is necessarily a bad thing. The second exception I have is regarding the transitive example you used in the beginning of your post about it being a stretch that A & B failing would not be cause to worry about C, D, and E failing, especially if A and B are things not known to frequently fail (and hardly ever with such minimal use), and/or if A and B are in any way related to any other letters of the alphabet. If A and B fail, and (as you stated) are systematically related to the remaining parts of the vehicle in any way, it is not unreasonable to assume that additional parts may also be placed under undue, unplanned, or unexpected stresses secondary to these failures. Not necessarily in this specific case do I believe that is what happened, but in the case of perhaps an electrical issue. To say that system "A" was an electrical problem, I think it would be naive to say that systems B-Z could not be affected subsequent to A failing.

Thanks for the replies, though, it is definitely food for thought about how remorse can cause us to see all of the bad and forget all of the good. Emotion, it seems is also playing a role in this situation, and that's just being human and can't be repaired. I agree it sounds like OP needs to move on, if only emotionally from this car.

[Olgeezer1]

Have to agree that as long as it's under warranty I wouldn't hesitate to keep the car. Maybe you've burned through all your bad luck and going forward the car will perform as expected. On replacement, does it have to be a new car? A well cared for M3 4 door a few years old could probably be had for about the same $ , or if it's not too big something like a 335i(s). Personally, going to a Japanese car would be a hard pill to swallow.

[crvz]

Originally Posted by Olgeezer1

Have to agree that as long as it's under warranty I wouldn't hesitate to keep the car. Maybe you've burned through all your bad luck and going forward the car will perform as expected. On replacement, does it have to be a new car? A well cared for M3 4 door a few years old could probably be had for about the same $ , or if it's not too big something like a 335i(s). Personally, going to a Japanese car would be a hard pill to swallow.

I've thought about other BMWs. I like the brand, I'm open to giving them another chance. And having taken a few test drives of other brands I must say that the n55 engine has spoiled me. Unfortunately there was a gap between 2011 and 2015 for the M3, so there's not a large used late model M3 sedan market right now. I am considering a 335i/340i, and I'm talking to the dealer about what they might help me with. They put me in a 335i msport auto for a loaner, which is nice (but I'm unsure I would be happy with the 8 speed auto in this car). I don't feel they owe me anything in particular, but I wouldnt mind if they made an effort to keep me loyal.

Admittedly, if it hasnt come across yet, there are other factors influencing my decision. Family wise a sedan might be nice, financially it may be to my advantage to unload the car now vs. later. The warranty issues are just pushing me over the edge.

I appreciate the conversation and different opinions, it certainly has kept me thinking and made me keep some options open. Who likes the chevrolet ss?

[tock172]

The Chevy SS is actually a great car. Read the Road & Track comparison they did with the E39 M5 if you haven't already. But more realistically speaking, have you considered a Porsche?

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by crvz

I've thought about other BMWs. I like the brand, I'm open to giving them another chance. And having taken a few test drives of other brands I must say that the n55 engine has spoiled me. Unfortunately there was a gap between 2011 and 2015 for the M3, so there's not a large used late model M3 sedan market right now. I am considering a 335i/340i, and I'm talking to the dealer about what they might help me with. They put me in a 335i msport auto for a loaner, which is nice (but I'm unsure I would be happy with the 8 speed auto in this car). I don't feel they owe me anything in particular, but I wouldnt mind if they made an effort to keep me loyal.

Admittedly, if it hasnt come across yet, there are other factors influencing my decision. Family wise a sedan might be nice, financially it may be to my advantage to unload the car now vs. later. The warranty issues are just pushing me over the edge.

I appreciate the conversation and different opinions, it certainly has kept me thinking and made me keep some options open. Who likes the chevrolet ss?

If you like the BMW brand and want to stay with it, and you say that the N55 engine has spoiled you, plus you think a sedan might better suit your family, a slightly used F30 335i might be a good idea if you don't want to buy new. The 3 series is a popular BMW model and there should be some good deals out there to be found.

[crvz]

Originally Posted by tock172

The Chevy SS is actually a great car. Read the Road & Track comparison they did with the E39 M5 if you haven't already. But more realistically speaking, have you considered a Porsche?

dealership locality is a big deal for me, and a porsche means a minimum 40 mile drive into Houston, which can suck on a weekday in the best case. Which model were you thinking, though?

Originally Posted by EvenEsteban

If you like the BMW brand and want to stay with it, and you say that the N55 engine has spoiled you, plus you think a sedan might better suit your family, a slightly used F30 335i might be a good idea if you don't want to buy new. The 3 series is a popular BMW model and there should be some good deals out there to be found.

I've got my eyes peeled for such an option, but finding one with a stick proves to be challenging.

[Cavpilot2k]

Originally Posted by KNS

I was going to say the CLA is Front Wheel Drive (which is a step in the wrong direction for Mercedes) but the tricycle picture sums it up perfectly.

Agreed. I didn't actually know that the CLA was FWD. Total fail on Merc's part then, and the car should be dropped out of any discussion of being a suitable replacement.

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

Agreed. I didn't actually know that the CLA was FWD. Total fail on Merc's part then, and the car should be dropped out of any discussion of being a suitable replacement.

That's why I suggested the CLA45 AMG. All-wheel drive.