Simple answer why only 335hp for 1M

Redadair · 12-13-2010, 11:47 AM

It seems like everyone is a bit let down about BMW essentially using the same N54 engine from the 335is in the new 1M. I initially shared this same feeling until I realized why BMW did this.

To understand this you need to put yourself in BMW's place for a minute. They are in the car making and selling business and while their passion for performance cars is always in mind the bottom line is to turn a profit.

The M3 has a long and deserved history of being associated with the real performance car for BMW, however over the years it has grown in size, weight and price to the point where BMW realized it was time to make changes to the M cars.

While BMW could have and arguably should have created an all new M engine for the new 1M it would have killed sales of the current M3. Look at the numbers and you can see that the new 1M is only 7 seconds slower around the Nurburgring than the current M3.

Had BMW given the 1M more power, possibly even 15 - 25hp more chances are the 1M may have tied or even beaten the M3. This wouldn’t have promoted sales of the M3 given the price difference of both cars $70K for the M3, $50K for the 1M with a few options on both cars. The $20 difference would have been extremely hard to justify.

This same sibling rivalry exists with the Porsche Cayman and 911, Porsche will not allow the Cayman to overtake the 911 even though the chassis of the Cayman is capable of being the better handler of the two.

In the end the 1M is the start of a reversal of BMW M cars getting larger and heavier with each generation. Only time will tell what the next version of M3 will look like for sure but one thing you can bet on is a return to the basics for the M division and a move away from all the unnecessary bloat that has crept into the current cars.

To me the 1M restores my faith in BMW to create fun to drive performance cars again.

sho-one · 12-13-2010, 11:57 AM

+1 the m3 is the only reason the 1m has only 335hp

///M1 · 12-13-2010, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sho-one

+1 the m3 is the only reason the 1m has only 335hp

Agreed. I am still hoping the 335crank is an understated number, and we will see 300whp once dynoed. But worry not, I am sure the aftermarket tuners are going to work (recall that Scott said some of the prototype mules will be turned over to tuners before they are crushed).

Moo · 12-13-2010, 12:40 PM

... which can be remedied (easily?) with a plethora of N54 tunes out there

SukSqueezeBangBlo · 12-13-2010, 01:16 PM

get a custom tune for the car, bigger downpipes and you will eat up m3's ...

rca06Mcoupe · 12-13-2010, 01:47 PM

[QUOTE=Redadair;8492966]It seems like everyone is a bit let down about BMW essentially using the same N54 engine from the 335is in the new 1M. I initially shared this same feeling until I realized why BMW did this.

To understand this you need to put yourself in BMW's place for a minute. They are in the car making and selling business and while their passion for performance cars is always in mind the bottom line is to turn a profit.

The M3 has a long and deserved history of being associated with the real performance car for BMW, however over the years it has grown in size, weight and price to the point where BMW realized it was time to make changes to the M cars.

While BMW could have and arguably should have created an all new M engine for the new 1M it would have killed sales of the current M3. Look at the numbers and you can see that the new 1M is only 7 seconds slower around the Nurburgring than the current M3.

Had BMW given the 1M more power, possibly even 15 - 25hp more chances are the 1M may have tied or even beaten the M3. This wouldn’t have promoted sales of the M3 given the price difference of both cars $70K for the M3, $50K for the 1M with a few options on both cars. The $20 difference would have been extremely hard to justify.

Yes, but......
the 1M price would be easier for me to justify if I knew the M division was highly involved in the development of the 1M engine before it went into the
Z4 335is. I did some reading and it appears M Division was highly involved in Z4 335is chassis development, etc.

On the positive side it does have enough power and seems fast enough and agree it has to be positioned subordinate to M3. However, I think it should be an upgrade in some manner over the Z4 M Coupe / Z4 335is, and it may turn out to be a better handler / better performer on tests other than the ring.

Technic · 12-13-2010, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sho-one

+1 the m3 is the only reason the 1m has only 335hp

No... the only reason the 1M has 335hp is because that engine was already developed, certified and ready to go in the Z4is, thus it was cheaper and quicker to install in the 1M.

M_Anthony · 12-13-2010, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sho-one

+1 the m3 is the only reason the 1m has only 335hp

Agreed. Car makers aren't stupid, they don't want to cannibalize the profitable sales. The Cayman won't overtake the 911 on power, and the 1M won't overtake the M3. Simple as that.

Genericuser1 · 12-13-2010, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Technic

No... the only reason the 1M has 335hp is because that engine was already developed, certified and ready to go in the Z4is, thus it was cheaper and quicker to install in the 1M.

This.

Nothing but a M1 supercar is allowed to be faster than the M3.

In the same vein that nothing can be faster than a 911 even though the Cayman is the better car.

Advevo · 12-13-2010, 02:53 PM

Maybe the M3 has something to do with the 335bhp. But thats not the only reason.

Low co2 numbers off factory is important. Why sell a low volume car with very high hp and high co2.

Every car model counts in the total Co2 even if you sell 10 of them. All car builders must get a total of 130 co2 in the total lineup in a few years time otherwise they need to pay a fine.

So it s better to sell a complete restricted car with low co2. What you do after registration is youre call. You will see more restricted cars and you will see more aftermarket parts.

Moo · 12-13-2010, 03:00 PM

I know 0-60 isn't everything, but it is a benchmark nevertheless.

That said, "official" stats from BMW (bmwusa.com) has the M3 going from 0-60 in 4.8 seconds, while 1M clocking in at 4.7 seconds.

Can we assume the M3's time is from a manual, and not DCT? What's the "real" 0-60 time for a manual M3?

JimD · 12-13-2010, 08:32 PM

The sales volume of the 1M would not recover the investment in a different engine. The most we could hope for was a custom tune. And that would have required more cooling. Far more cost effective to use an existing motor (and transmission (at least in ratios) and rear end).

The M3 is faster than the M5 or M6. But it costs less. I'm not sure letting the M3 "win" was the main reason.

Jim

ennislaw · 12-13-2010, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by formula M

29.4mpg might have somthing to do with it...! (ie: efficiency)

Yes, very few 1-ers have seemingly caught on to this. Amazing if it's accurate, given the hp-ft/lb bump and with a lower (numerically) axle ratio.

pge

1M Fan · 12-13-2010, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Technic

No... the only reason the 1M has 335hp is because that engine was already developed, certified and ready to go in the Z4is, thus it was cheaper and quicker to install in the 1M.

This is probably closer to the truth. They developed this car in 14 months for a one year run. Not enough time to crash test and certify it with a different engine like the M3 engine. Not enough time and money to certify a new tune in all the markets they want to sell it so they have to say with a tune that is certified.

Kurt_OH · 12-13-2010, 09:15 PM

The catalog for the 1M says the "Extra Urban" mileage is 7.3L / 100km. That's 32mpg!

WOW!

Pete_vB · 12-13-2010, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ///M1

Agreed. I am still hoping the 335crank is an understated number, and we will see 300whp once dynoed.

I believe that's very likely. This 335is test shows 340 wtq and 293 whp against a quoted 369/320 at the crank.
http://www.bmwblog.com/2010/09/12/dy...ne-horsepower/
If the 1M is similar then wheels power would be ~92% of crank, meaning we might expect around 340 TQ / 307 HP at the wheels stock.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ///M1

But worry not, I am sure the aftermarket tuners are going to work (recall that Scott said some of the prototype mules will be turned over to tuners before they are crushed).

Did he? That would be very good news...

M3 Adjuster · 12-29-2010, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimD

The sales volume of the 1M would not recover the investment in a different engine. The most we could hope for was a custom tune. And that would have required more cooling. Far more cost effective to use an existing motor (and transmission (at least in ratios) and rear end).

The M3 is faster than the M5 or M6. But it costs less. I'm not sure letting the M3 "win" was the main reason.

Jim

LOL.. no doubt...

cpippolo · 12-29-2010, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

The catalog for the 1M says the "Extra Urban" mileage is 7.3L / 100km. That's 32mpg!

WOW!

I think that's on the European test cycle, which routinely comes up with much higher numbers that the EPA tests. 2011 Z435is is rated only 17/24 by EPA, 335is is 17/24 auto 18/26 manual. Can't believe the 1M will come in much higher than 18/26

///M1 · 12-29-2010, 08:35 AM

Recall that Automobile magazine did a dyno test of the 335i (N54), 335is, and 335i (N55). Here are the result (see all 3 pages).

The 'is' came in at 293whp/343wtq, but what was more important than the peak numbers were how its curve looked relative to the N54 and N55.

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...bo_engine.html

Redadair · 12-29-2010, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ///M1

Recall that Automobile magazine did a dyno test of the 335i (N54), 335is, and 335i (N55). Here are the result (see all 3 pages).

The 'is' came in at 293whp/343wtq, but what was more important than the peak numbers were how its curve looked relative to the N54 and N55.

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...bo_engine.html

Very nice Curves!

02fireman · 12-29-2010, 10:31 AM

When I had my 335i, all I wanted for Christmas was an M suspension and gear box... I think this engine will do just fine + given the upgrades on the cooling and ECU and lighter weight it will kick ass..
Not to mention when you let off the gas you could get high 20's or 30's MPG.

MrRoboto · 12-29-2010, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ///M1

Agreed. I am still hoping the 335crank is an understated number, and we will see 300whp once dynoed. But worry not, I am sure the aftermarket tuners are going to work (recall that Scott said some of the prototype mules will be turned over to tuners before they are crushed).

Apparently some have tuned the 335is with Proceed. Results are the same as a tuned 335, 135 etc.

I wouldn't hold your breath for any custom software for the 1M given such limited production.

12-13-2010, 11:47 AM	#1
Redadair Major 103 Rep 1,417 Posts Drives: 2011 1M #293 - 88 E30 M3 Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Murray iTrader: (0)	Simple answer why only 335hp for 1M It seems like everyone is a bit let down about BMW essentially using the same N54 engine from the 335is in the new 1M. I initially shared this same feeling until I realized why BMW did this. To understand this you need to put yourself in BMW's place for a minute. They are in the car making and selling business and while their passion for performance cars is always in mind the bottom line is to turn a profit. The M3 has a long and deserved history of being associated with the real performance car for BMW, however over the years it has grown in size, weight and price to the point where BMW realized it was time to make changes to the M cars. While BMW could have and arguably should have created an all new M engine for the new 1M it would have killed sales of the current M3. Look at the numbers and you can see that the new 1M is only 7 seconds slower around the Nurburgring than the current M3. Had BMW given the 1M more power, possibly even 15 - 25hp more chances are the 1M may have tied or even beaten the M3. This wouldn’t have promoted sales of the M3 given the price difference of both cars $70K for the M3, $50K for the 1M with a few options on both cars. The $20 difference would have been extremely hard to justify. This same sibling rivalry exists with the Porsche Cayman and 911, Porsche will not allow the Cayman to overtake the 911 even though the chassis of the Cayman is capable of being the better handler of the two. In the end the 1M is the start of a reversal of BMW M cars getting larger and heavier with each generation. Only time will tell what the next version of M3 will look like for sure but one thing you can bet on is a return to the basics for the M division and a move away from all the unnecessary bloat that has crept into the current cars. To me the 1M restores my faith in BMW to create fun to drive performance cars again. __________________ 2011 1M, Valencia Orange, All options. August 8th ED (#293 of 739 or 740) 88 E30 M3 100% OEM 73K Miles 02 E39 M5 Le Mans Blue 50K Miles 06 E46 M3 ZCP 58K Miles
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12-13-2010, 11:57 AM	#2
sho-one MMA fighter and F1 test driver 18 Rep 362 Posts Drives: Z4///M coupe bulletproof Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: omaha ne iTrader: (4)	+1 the m3 is the only reason the 1m has only 335hp __________________ NOW:08 M.Coupe SMB #102/248 #1669/1815 :\|MORRVS8\|APEX8\|SS.X-pipe\|SS.PW.Loop\|AFE.intake\|Matte.grill\|short.ant\|Z HP.knob\|interior.LED\|bulletproof 09 Audi Q5 THEN:96Accord\|98Camry\|04TSX SC\|06 M3\|06A4\|05Civic Si\|05Imprezza\|05S2000\|08FJ
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12-13-2010, 12:40 PM	#4
Moo Gold Member 161 Rep 512 Posts Drives: PSYWGN Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Studio 69 iTrader: (0)	... which can be remedied (easily?) with a plethora of N54 tunes out there
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12-13-2010, 01:16 PM	#5
SukSqueezeBangBlo Captain 118 Rep 888 Posts Drives: F80 M3 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Best Coast iTrader: (1)	get a custom tune for the car, bigger downpipes and you will eat up m3's ... __________________ M
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12-13-2010, 01:47 PM	#6
rca06Mcoupe Private 3 Rep 67 Posts Drives: 2006 M Coupe Imola/Imola Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Boston (area) iTrader: (0)	[QUOTE=Redadair;8492966]It seems like everyone is a bit let down about BMW essentially using the same N54 engine from the 335is in the new 1M. I initially shared this same feeling until I realized why BMW did this. To understand this you need to put yourself in BMW's place for a minute. They are in the car making and selling business and while their passion for performance cars is always in mind the bottom line is to turn a profit. The M3 has a long and deserved history of being associated with the real performance car for BMW, however over the years it has grown in size, weight and price to the point where BMW realized it was time to make changes to the M cars. While BMW could have and arguably should have created an all new M engine for the new 1M it would have killed sales of the current M3. Look at the numbers and you can see that the new 1M is only 7 seconds slower around the Nurburgring than the current M3. Had BMW given the 1M more power, possibly even 15 - 25hp more chances are the 1M may have tied or even beaten the M3. This wouldn’t have promoted sales of the M3 given the price difference of both cars $70K for the M3, $50K for the 1M with a few options on both cars. The $20 difference would have been extremely hard to justify. Yes, but...... the 1M price would be easier for me to justify if I knew the M division was highly involved in the development of the 1M engine before it went into the Z4 335is. I did some reading and it appears M Division was highly involved in Z4 335is chassis development, etc. On the positive side it does have enough power and seems fast enough and agree it has to be positioned subordinate to M3. However, I think it should be an upgrade in some manner over the Z4 M Coupe / Z4 335is, and it may turn out to be a better handler / better performer on tests other than the ring.
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12-13-2010, 02:53 PM	#10
Advevo Banned 581 Rep 1,170 Posts Drives: M2 Competition, E30 M3 DTM Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Country where the taxes are too high!! iTrader: (0)	Maybe the M3 has something to do with the 335bhp. But thats not the only reason. Low co2 numbers off factory is important. Why sell a low volume car with very high hp and high co2. Every car model counts in the total Co2 even if you sell 10 of them. All car builders must get a total of 130 co2 in the total lineup in a few years time otherwise they need to pay a fine. So it s better to sell a complete restricted car with low co2. What you do after registration is youre call. You will see more restricted cars and you will see more aftermarket parts.
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12-13-2010, 03:00 PM	#11
Moo Gold Member 161 Rep 512 Posts Drives: PSYWGN Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Studio 69 iTrader: (0)	I know 0-60 isn't everything, but it is a benchmark nevertheless. That said, "official" stats from BMW (bmwusa.com) has the M3 going from 0-60 in 4.8 seconds, while 1M clocking in at 4.7 seconds. Can we assume the M3's time is from a manual, and not DCT? What's the "real" 0-60 time for a manual M3?
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12-13-2010, 08:32 PM	#12
JimD Brigadier General 368 Rep 3,547 Posts Drives: 128i convertible Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Lexington, SC iTrader: (0)	The sales volume of the 1M would not recover the investment in a different engine. The most we could hope for was a custom tune. And that would have required more cooling. Far more cost effective to use an existing motor (and transmission (at least in ratios) and rear end). The M3 is faster than the M5 or M6. But it costs less. I'm not sure letting the M3 "win" was the main reason. Jim __________________ 128i Convertible, MT, Alpine White, Black Top, Taupe Leatherette, Walnut, Sport Ordered 5/22/09, Completed 6/4/09, At Port 6/9/09, On the Georgia Highway 6/13/09, Ship Arrived Charleston 6/24/09 at 10pm, PCD 7/21/09
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12-13-2010, 09:15 PM	#15
Kurt_OH Captain 12 Rep 734 Posts Drives: E90 M3 ZCP Join Date: May 2008 Location: Columbus, OH iTrader: (0)	The catalog for the 1M says the "Extra Urban" mileage is 7.3L / 100km. That's 32mpg! WOW! __________________ ... a glorious V8 that screamed and hollered as the revs rose and then howled in an orgy of what sounded like BDSM ecstasy as it neared the red line. Well, you can forget all that. The new car is fitted with a turbocharged straight six. Turbocharging? In an M car? That’s like putting gravy on an ice cream. - Jeremy Clarkson, discussing the S65 and then S55 M3 engines.
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12-29-2010, 08:35 AM	#19
///M1 Brigadier General 275 Rep 3,164 Posts Drives: Many Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: North of 7K RPM iTrader: (1) Garage List 2020 BMW M2 CS [0.00] 1994 Audi RS2 Avant [0.00] 2021 Audi RS6 Avant [0.00] 1988 BMW E30 M3 [0.00] 2011 BMW 1///M [0.00] 2017 BMW F80 M3 30 ... [0.00] 2018 Porsche 991.2 GT3 [0.00] 2015 Porsche Macan ... [0.00] 1998 Porsche 993 C4S [0.00] 1994 Lancia Delta I ... [0.00] 2008 Audi RS4 [0.00]	Recall that Automobile magazine did a dyno test of the 335i (N54), 335is, and 335i (N55). Here are the result (see all 3 pages). The 'is' came in at 293whp/343wtq, but what was more important than the peak numbers were how its curve looked relative to the N54 and N55. http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...bo_engine.html __________________ *2011 BMW E82 1///M: AW, all options; Renntech, Akrapovic, Forge, P3, RevoZ CF bits, many mods 1988 BMW E30 M3: Hennarot, S14, stock 2018 Porsche 991.2 GT3: PtS, CXX, LWBS, PCCB 1998 Porsche 993 C4S: Zenith Blue, last aircooled widebody, Bilstein PSS10, Fister II + Fabspeed exhaust 2008 Audi B7 RS 4*: Sprint Blue, Audi Exclusive Euro Bucket Interior, Premium+Titanium, many mods
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12-29-2010, 10:31 AM	#21
02fireman Second Lieutenant 7 Rep 294 Posts Drives: Twistys Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Central Fl. iTrader: (0)	When I had my 335i, all I wanted for Christmas was an M suspension and gear box... I think this engine will do just fine + given the upgrades on the cooling and ECU and lighter weight it will kick ass.. Not to mention when you let off the gas you could get high 20's or 30's MPG. __________________ Z4M Coupe 6MT Monaco Blue #13/36 ...Keeper... Z4 3.0 6MT ...Keeper... 2OO2 5MT ...Keeper... 335i 6MT Montego Blue M-Sport (Retired),X535d Vermillion Red/Saddle (Retired)
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