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[ken1137]

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by bimmer74

Sorry but your reasoning is flawed. Putting sand in the trunk or starting in second gear will help you get going but it won't help you in an emergency situation where you need to stop in low grip conditions. A bunch of additional weight in the trunk will actually prolong your braking distances. People don't crash in winter because they get stuck. They crash because their tires lose grip during cornering or braking. AS tires won't help here - only tires with winter compounds and tread. The 20% more grip of winters can be the difference between crashing and avoiding an accident.

Also, the approach to winter tires is to get more active safety, not to drive faster than on all seasons. Going with the flow of traffic in slippery conditions, my car with snows will stop better that any car with AS tires around me. Period.

I drove through many winters with AS tires and I never had an accident. However, the first time I drove on snow tires in a major snowstorm, I was sold. The amount of grip, directional stability and traction was very reassuring.

Given the severe winter conditions in Toronto, I definitely recommend proper tires for the conditions.

Non of us who run all seasons have claimed that snow tires are not the best in snow. We know snow tires are the best tires for snow.
That in no way means that all seasons are not safe in the winter.
Traction and grip in relation to all these tires choices is a matter of degree.

If you run all seasons you have to know and understand that you have to drive more carefully and allow for longer stopping distances.
Snow tires, in the snow, will allow you to stop faster, agreed.
But, on dry cold surfaces, which tire stops faster?
What about snowless, cold and wet surfaces?
Which condition do you encounter most often in the winter in your area?
Make the choice based on that.

To muddy the "there is only one choice" promoters, there are differences among all seasons as some are designed to improve one aspect of performance or another. The same goes for summer tires and snow tires.

If the argument is that you want the best grip for any road condition, then you're going to be disappointed throughout the year as the seasons and road conditions change.

All seasons are designed to give the best ALL SEASON performance so that no matter the condition you are not left with the wrong tire given the road condition. It may not be THE best tire/grip for any given condition, but it gives the most safety for nearly all conditions.
For me, that is THE performance aspect in favor of all season tires.

To further push the argument of what is "best" for any given road condition, consider this.
If one wants the best grip year round in a 4 seasons area, then the best option would be to run 3 sets of tires. One set for the summer, one set for winter, and one set for the months in between; October, November, March, April, and even May in some areas.
To say you value having the best grip in any condition would mean you run the best gripping tire for any condition. 2 sets won't cut it as you're left with a number of months where neither summer tires nor snow tires are the best. Running 2 sets is still a compromise when you're still running summer tires in late Oct. or November, it's cold and damp an hasn't snowed yet. Your traction is severely limited in those conditions. If you switch to winter tires in late Oct or Nov and it's warm and dry, your grip is really compromised. Same goes for the spring.

Also, if you pursue the best grip, then in the summer you would not run high performance or ultra high summer tires. You would run Max performance. But then, what if it rains? Many Max tires are great only when it's hot and dry, and don't do so well in the rain.
Extreme performance trades some ultimate dry grip to give some better wet grip. So, which tires is truly the "best grip" for the summer?

We make choices based on our road conditions, performance expectation, and driving skill.
In reality all tires require a compromise when living in the conditions we do. What you're willing to compromise is your choice.
But, telling me and others that my all season choice is senseless or foolish is ridiculous.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by GaryS

Here's an all-season vs snow tire test Tire Rack did with an E90 325i.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=103

200 foot acceleration on snow took 8 seconds with snow tires and 11 seconds with all-seasons. Braking from 30 mph took 60 feet on snow tires and 90 feet on all-seasons.

How can someone care enough about performance to buy a 135i, and then cripple its performance with all-season tires in a Toronto winter?

We already know that snow tires are better in the snow than all season tires. Nothing new there.
Did you see any testing of snow tires vs all season tires on cold dry surfaces?
What about on cold, wet surfaces with no snow?
I encounter those conditions much more than snow covered roads.
I've asked TireRack to do some actual real world comparison between snow tires and all season tires, that test the majority conditions in the winter. It would be much more relevant for many of us.

The accel test is fine, for those who care about acceleration performance in snow. I don't do performance driving in snow.
If you do, then get a car better suited for that type of performance driving.

Braking data is relevant. But again, anyone who thinks they can drive their car in the same spirited manner on snow covered roads as they do in the summer, are the ones who are truly foolish.

Yes, I do care about performance with my 135i.
If you think that because you can accelerate faster than me, and brake shorter than me in the winter or summer, and that makes your more of a performance enthusiast, well good for you.

If you want to discuss tires and tire tech, cool.
If you want to extrapolate tire choice to who's more of an enthusiast and who cares more about performance, then that's a debate I could care less about.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by GaryS

I was born in Chicago and lived there for 40 years. I didn't say it was foolish to drive a Honda Accord with all-season tires in Chicago. I said it is foolish to put all-season ties on a 135i in Chicago. You sacrificed a large amount of performance to save a small amount of money. That is a bad decision no matter how you try to rationalize it.

Also, you remarked several times that you believe your superior driving skills make up for the difference in performance between snow tires and all-seasons. What should I call a remark like that except foolish?

Actually Gary, I made that one comment about my "superior" driving skills, and it was make in jest. You must have missed it.
But, yes, driving skill matters a LOT, and it does matter for winter driving as well. Can my, or any other good drivers, driving skill with all seasons allow me to drive just fine and safely without using snow tires?
Why yes it can, as I've survived just fine with no ditch incidents or accidents in the winter.
The "performance" difference is moot, because the proof is that I get around just fine, and thus do not need snow tires.
What am I sacrificing again?

You can choose to call my safe driving on all seasons foolish if you need to. But, you'd be foolish in doing so.

So, why is it foolish for a 135i but not for an Accord?
Please elaborate.

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Did you see any testing of snow tires vs all season tires on cold dry surfaces?
What about on cold, wet surfaces with no snow?

The best tires for those conditions are winter performance tires like Michelin Pilot Alpin or Blizzak LM-60. I don't know if serious snow tires like Michelin X-Ice or Blizzak WS-60 are better than all-season tires on cold dry pavement. I would definitely trust them more than all-seasons on cold wet pavement.

[JimD]

It is true that extra weight over the driving wheels does not help cornering and won't typically help braking. I've lost braking just due to engine braking before, however, and it would help with that. Normal panic braking is heavily front wheels biased. You can't brake that hard on snow, however, and your rear wheels will be doing more work so I'm not sure if you can count on the fact that the rear wheels don't matter that much in braking on snow. If you get stuck on ice, the sand will also be very handy. If you don't like the idea, don't do it. It has been around for longer than I have, however, and a lot of us have used the strategy to positive result.

I also am not trying to say that I can drive better in snow than other people, I don't know you so that would be reckless to suggest. My message is simply that I have driven a variety of vehicles in winter conditions including significant amounts of snow using all season tires and I never felt I was at a substantial disadvantage due to using them. I've purposely driven on the snow before the plows come mostly just for fun.

I don't have any problem with people saying they want to spend more and have the "best" tires for snow. That seems like a reasonable choice to make. I only object to arguments about the compound making a difference (if you believe that, please explain why the summer tires were best in wet and dry conditions in the first test I posted the link to), arguments that all season "just won't work", and other justifications for getting snow tires that are based, IMHO, on nonsense. If you want these tires then get them and don't get defensive about it. Don't call other people names for suggesting you could get by without them. You don't have to "get by" if you don't want to. It is your car and your money.

I also find arguments related to cornering a little off point. When there is really frozen water covering the road, the only thing a responsible driver should be worried about is getting where they are going. If you start trying for the maximum cornering, I think you are likely to end up in a ditch regardless of what you are using for tires. I've found the traction to vary widely with no visual evidence. I think you just have to take it as easy as you reasonably can. If you don't develop some feel for what you can do under the conditions you find, you will be at risk regardless of your tires.

The other point I will make is that most of us live in areas with snow plows and salt/sand trucks. I haven't lived there but I bet they have them in Toronto. So even when it snows, there is only a brief window when you are really driving on frozen water. The first test I posted the link to suggests that even summer tires may be better when the roads are just wet than snow tires. It is a small range of conditions, in other words, that you are buying margin with the snows. It that is adequate justification to you, please buy them and be happy. I just think it is best to make decisions based upon facts, not unfounded opinions. If you stick with all seasons, recognize their limits and my experience is you will be fine. If you get the snows, recognize that it doesn't make it impossible for you to get in trouble and you should be OK too.

Jim

[BrokenVert]

This thread has gotten to be a bit dumb. I'm leaving the country tho, so I have stuff I need to do.

But I'll leave with this. I'm still pretty sure that you have to have snow tires on your car in Canada between the months of November and march. Like its a law

[mackeroni]

Phew! Glad I bought that winter wheel/snow tire set up. Almost can't wait to mount up and see how they run.

Makes me wonder why BMW offers the no-cost all-season tire option, though. (17" Light alloy Star-spoke wheels style 256-with all-season tires 7Jx17 / Tires.) Wish they offered a low cost factory winter wheel and tire option.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by GaryS

The best tires for those conditions are winter performance tires like Michelin Pilot Alpin or Blizzak LM-60. I don't know if serious snow tires like Michelin X-Ice or Blizzak WS-60 are better than all-season tires on cold dry pavement. I would definitely trust them more than all-seasons on cold wet pavement.

I've been doing some research using TireRacks data, namely in the categories of:
Slalom
Lap
Stopping Distance 50mph-0
Avg. G-Force

The data is available for both wet and dry for all seasons, extreme summer, max summer, and more.

There is some data for stud-less snow tires, but not enough to make better comparisons between snow and all-season tires for non summer use.
For "winter performance" there is extremely little data. But I found some for the B.Stone LM60.

Once I get the data sorted for the other types of tires, I'll try and make a spread sheet.
I think many people will be very surprised at the data.

I was able to mine some data on "winter stud-less".
But, the only comparable numbers are in stopping distance from 50mph-0 in dry and wet.
Still, I think that's an important data point, so I'll list it.

I'll use the standout tires in all-season and winter.
Stopping 50mph-0
DRY - all season
Conti DWS - 88.20 ft.
B.Stone RE970 - 89.00

DRY - winter studless
B.Stone WS60 - 99.60 ft.
Conti XTR winter -100.30

DRY - performance winter
B.Stone LM60 - 103.40 ft.

WET - all season
Conti DWS - 89.90 ft
B.Stone RE970 - 89.90 ft

WET - winter studless
B.Stone WS60 - 135.80 ft!
Conti XTR winter - 129.10

WET -= performance winter
B.Stone LM60 - 125.30 ft

The immediate problem with the data, is that TireRack doesn't list the ambient temperature at which these tests were taken.
I can assume it was above 32F only because there is data for a "wet" road condition.

The data shows a huge difference in braking in both dry and wet conditions between all season and winter and winter performance (though winter performance has very limited data).

This is why I think TireRack needs to do a better job in testing among and between these tire types as it is relevant.
Driving on snow is one thing, but driving on roads with no snow, in cold temps, and dry or wet, is another.
The snow-less cold road condition is the majority condition that most of us will drive on. Driving on a snow covered road is a very limited condition during the 365 days of the year, and even in the winter.

Given the data so far, an "ultra hi-po" all season is a better choice for dry or wet road conditions, with no snow, compared to a snow tire or even performance snow tire.
I will admit this conclusion is given with reservation as the data is incomplete.

I will also say this, it's in the interest of TireRack to conclude that all seasons can get you by in the winter, as it sells a second set of tires and possible second set of wheels. All-season tires and not as good in snow compared to snow tires. But, most of us know that.
By concluding the obvious, it pushes the idea that one should or must get a set of snow tires for the winter. If I were in the business of selling tires, I'd conclude that too.

That's not a slam at TireRack. I've bought from them for years and will continue to do so. They are great, and give customers more information and data than any other tire retailer. Their installation service is the best I've used, and their prices ARE what the competition tries to beat.
Still, the data and conclusions are incomplete.

I'll post a new thread once I have the other data compiled.

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by RPM90

The immediate problem with the data, is that TireRack doesn't list the ambient temperature at which these tests were taken.
I can assume it was above 32F only because there is data for a "wet" road condition.

Is the data from comparison tests of these tires vs each other? You need data for two pairs of tires under the same conditions - same car, same track, same temperature. If you can get stopping distances from a WS60 vs DWS comparison test and a WS60 vs LM60 comparison test, you might be able to make a reasonable guess about DWS vs LM60.

[JimD]

Car and Driver tested snows versus all season versus performance summer tires. If you google "car and driver tire tests" you will find it. They found about the same 20-25% traction difference between snow tires and all seasons in snow as were found with Michelin's in the article I posted the link to earlier in this thread. The C&D tests used Bridgestones. The C&D tests also found the summer tires were really bad in snow but pretty good in wet and dry even in cold weather.

It seems to me that the difference between snows and all season in snow is pretty well established. You need to go 5-10 mph slower on all seasons to have the same stopping distance. And if you have to stop unexpectedly, you could have a problem. As many us have testified, all seasons, however, will get you where you are going if you are careful.

The more curious thing is the difference in dry and wet conditions. While the benefit of the snow tires seems to be established, the benefit of the summer tires over the extreme performance all seasons is unclear. The tire rack ratings do not show a definite advantage. The two reviews do not show a clear difference favoring either type. Cost is similar but wear ratings are much higher for the extreme performance all seasons. I'm interested to see what RPM90 comes up with. It appears to me based upon my admittedly limited research that you give up essentially nothing in performance in the summer by using extreme performance all seasons. And you have at least some capability if you have to get through a little snow.

Jim

[BrokenVert]

Common guys. Ive flown to another continent and moved into a flat and the first thing I see after setting up my wifi is somebody quoting me in this thread?

Common, this is starting to become a manual vs automatic thread.

We all have our preferences for not dying.

I prefer winter tires because of where I live and snow, as should the Canadians IMO and people out of the snow belt choose A/S tires.

Do what works for you.


Also, this mentioned lack of winter tire stickiness in the dry and wet is stupid. My Dunlop D3s had better wet grip than my PS2s in ideal conditions for each tire and my D3s have better ultimate grip than the stock runflats.


Ive done mountain runs in the dry in november with other members of this board. Ones who have (225/255 tires, LSD, suspension overhaul, Proceede, etc) I was the car behind him on my 225 square winters and I kept pace with him no problem. HE said he was reasonably pushing it aswell.

The point is in the dry and wet the limits are sop high that no reasonable person will reach them.

And to the point of ok you can use all seasons and drive slowly...Sometimes in the snow you need to keep up some speed inorder to not get stuck. There are also several hills in syracuse that I can only get up by taking the traction control full off and reving up to 4K rpm, on my snow tires!!!!

I would be stuck on A/S

I wouldnt go anywhere without my winters, and anybody who knows what real snow is is an idiot for not buying them, IMO.


And thats where im leaving this.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by GaryS

Is the data from comparison tests of these tires vs each other? You need data for two pairs of tires under the same conditions - same car, same track, same temperature. If you can get stopping distances from a WS60 vs DWS comparison test and a WS60 vs LM60 comparison test, you might be able to make a reasonable guess about DWS vs LM60.

That would be the ideal. However, as I stated, we don't know those details.
And, no, these tests are not done on the same day in exact conditions.
It's not realistic to expect that either.

So, we have to use the data given, and use some judgement in what can be extrapolated. Not having all this data does limit an exact comparison, but that doesn't mean we can't use any of it to give a general idea of what the comparison is.

We can reasonably assume that TireRack uses a standardized method of testing so that their data has any relevance at all.
If we assume that they don't do any type of comparable conditions, then their data is useless for us to compare among and between tire types.

The equivalent would be auto magazines and their tests.
They don't test all the cars at the same time in same conditions.
But, we can assume that they try to use comparable conditions by which to get the data that they give their readers. If they didn't, then as well their data would be useless for consumers to use in order to compare among and between models.

They do use same to very similar cars for their tests. Historically they have been BMW 3 series sedans and coupes.
They do have their own test track.
So, those conditions are as close to same as we can expect.

The temperature questions is valid, and I brought that up as well, as I think it's an extremely important data point.
But, TireRack doesn't post that.

As I said in my post, the only thing I can conclude is that the temperature was above freezing as they gave "dry" and "wet" road conditions, and to be "wet" it has to be at least above freezing.

I know it's not good enough, but that's all we have.
Hopefully someone from TireRack may jump in at some point and give us some info on what temps these tests take place at.

I'm still inclined to accept that the DWS has better dry and wet stopping grip, given what data is available.
And, in regards to summer tires vs all seasons the numbers were surprising. Not as much difference as even I thought there would be.
I'll post that data in a different thread.

One more thing, as much as you and I feel that we need better detail of the conditions to make a better assessment, I find it odd that TireRack comes to the conclusions they do regarding snow tires vs all seasons, when they didn't do the type of testing we asking for.
All that can be concluded given what was tested, is that snow tires have more grip than all seasons in the snow only. But, that we already knew or guessed at, given our experience with that type tire, and the reading we've done on the subject.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

Common, this is starting to become a manual vs automatic thread.

We all have our preferences for not dying.

I prefer winter tires because of where I live and snow, as should the Canadians IMO and people out of the snow belt choose A/S tires.

Do what works for you.

Do what works for you?
I do, but I was called foolish for it, with all sorts of implications of running off into ditches and crashing into other cars, or even being some kind of menace because I am running tires that work for me.
But thanks for the sentiment just the same.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by JimD

I'm interested to see what RPM90 comes up with. It appears to me based upon my admittedly limited research that you give up essentially nothing in performance in the summer by using extreme performance all seasons. And you have at least some capability if you have to get through a little snow.

Jim

Given what I'm seeing, yes, you give up some vs summer, not a lot though.
Also, there is a difference in snow grip ability among all seasons.
Right now, the Conti DWS is clearly superior to it's competitors.
And manufacturers are always improving them.

One very glaring omission in TireRacks testing is that there is no testing data for RFT's. I'd like to see summer RFT's tested against ultra high po all seasons and extreme/max summer tires.
BMW and other luxury brands use these summer RFT's as part of their "sport" packages. I'd like to see what the manufacturers were basing that decision on.

[Elsabor67]

My experience with an All-Season tire started the year I bought my 1er, in 2009. I had spoken with Chris at Tirerack and asked for advice on a good all season tire since at the time straight winter tire setup was not in my budget at the moment. I went with Yokohama S4's but never read much about them. Needless to say, that year in Kaiserslautern we had really bad snowfall but the traction in very light snow was horrible and grip in dry was just as bad. The car wound up spending from december until late february in the garage and only came out if the roads were dry and it was sunny just to warm her up and driver her for a bit.

I chose afterwards a square 17x7 setup that had Pirelli Sottozero's and had no problems whatsoever in dry and in snow up to 5"-7". This year I am running michelin's in teh same square setup. After my experience with A/S tires I am staying away from them. They might work for some, but didn't work for me.

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by RPM90

That would be the ideal. However, as I stated, we don't know those details.
And, no, these tests are not done on the same day in exact conditions.

Here's what Tire Rack says:

Our Real World Road Rides and Performance Test Track Drives are typically conducted on Tuesdays through Fridays from May through September

Our test track features a sprinkler system that allows us to evaluate traction, handling and braking distances under consistent wet road conditions...

we also test wintertime traction on the ice of a hockey rink and in South Bend's annual 70+ inches of snow.

I don't see anything about testing on cold dry or cold wet pavement. If I compare my summer and winter tires on dry or wet pavement in September, my summer tires have much more stopping power. If I compare them in December, my winter tires have much more stopping power. So I think you need better performance data than Tire Rack provides to conclude anything across performance categories.

So I looked at some manufacturers descriptions of their best all-season and winter performance tires, but I couldn't make any real conclusion about cold dry and cold wet pavement on that basis either. So I'll take back that winter performance tires are better in those conditions. That's just my impression from driving 328i loaners with all-seasons and my car with Dunlop wintersports.

[jbinbi]

Sorry to interrupt the thread but have 2 practical questions:

1. Can you just put snow tires on the rear wheels (i have been driving 35 years, all of it in the NE, and when I started, there was only rwd, and this is what most eveyone did).

2. Can some chime in as to what snow tires they use and if they like them.

3. BTW, my experience in New England is that FWD and NEW all seasons are ok, especially if you can wait for one plow pass. AWD and all seasons, a bit better, but if you are driving in snow all the time and need to count on being able to get places all the time, AWD AND SNOWs are the only way. I couldn't imagine trying to get around in ski country in my 128 w all seasons... (major league sneaker analogy was the best post)

[szcyxzh]

Guys, need advise on A/S tire for my new 128i:

1. The reason for A/S in MY CASE:

Currently work at Iowa, very close to Chicago. Have cold winter (avg low 25) and hot summer (avg high 90). AND i am a Florida resident so will travel between Florida and Iowa often. No needs to swipe the rims often. A/S for sure in MY CASE.

2. Which brands are better?

Since 1er is quite sport, i only consider ultra performance A/S. Have several choices here:
Continetal ExtremeContact DWS
Bridgestone Potenza RE970AS Pole Position
Pirelli PZero Nero All Season
Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus
Cost is not a major consideration here since the price range is not dramatic.

3. What set-up of tires are good on 128i?

My 2012 128i comes with m pkg. So what tire set-up should i choose?


Much appreciate it!!!

[bozola]

All of those are good choices according to tire rack

[JimD]

If I remember right, not all of those tires come in the stock size for our 128i sports. The Contis do. They seem to me to have the best balance of tire ratings, wear rating, and price - at least in my opinion. You do not have to get stock sizes, you could go up a little, but I plan to just stay with stock size.

Jim

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I'm still inclined to accept that the DWS has better dry and wet stopping grip, given what data is available.

Here's something on Tire Rack that is from a valid comparison test and does support your opinion. I can't find the original test article, but this summary seems clear enough. Anyway, it's good enough for me to say the best all-seasons do beat studless snow/ice tires on cold wet and cold dry pavement.

We've previously experienced the reduction in dry and wet road handling when rear-wheel drive vehicles equipped with all-season tires on the front axle and winter / snow tires on the rear began to spin out (oversteer) at the vehicle's cornering limit.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=110

That still leaves winter performance tires without adequate data, so for now I'll stay converted to agnostic about them vs all-seasons for cold wet and cold dry pavement.

If I get another 328i loaner this winter, I'll hope for no snow and test braking on probably cold dry pavement. If the conditions are consistent and the heavier and softer 328i wins, that would prove something. It will be harder to judge if my car wins.