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      08-06-2014, 07:53 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkrom View Post
You didn't answer my question though. Does the N55 motor need to be opened/built to handle the 500+ HP that you can get easily with the N54?
Yes, it does. I've been told now by three German tuners this(Tuning Werke / Mannhart Racing / MS Tuning). The N55 can only handle ~360 PS on the internal engine components. higher than that and you will need to start beefing things up.

I've also heard that the N54 was originally designed for 380 PS for use in the Z4 sDrive 3.5is but BMW's board nix'd that idea. I guess that was back when a Z4M model was being considered. Instead we got a badge and trim package'd Z4 in VO.
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      08-06-2014, 07:58 AM   #90
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Thanks that was my understanding too, that the motor itself was the weak point, not the turbo or lack of tuning.

Not that its "weak" but the N54 seems to be pretty over built. Lots of people running RB's making 500+ WHP on the N54 platform with a stock motor. I hope to join them some day.

I see so many people talking trash about the JB4, but I've seen plenty of cars running the JB4 and the RB turbos making an easy/safe/reliable 500+ WHP... But of course there are no people selling custom tunes for the JB4...so perhaps that is where some of the confusion is started. Obviously if I were selling my "protunes" I'd be talking trash about the device that does it for you with added engine perimeters and self adapting safety features as well...
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      08-06-2014, 08:43 AM   #91
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I dont think anyone has tested either motor to its limit. The limiting factor for the N55 was the turbo until a few months ago. People are making more and more power with it every day and I haven't seen one blow its top yet, but this is the only BMW forum I browse so I'm not 100% sure. I do know BMS was making >460whp on an N55 as of December, pretty sure they were on stock internals
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      08-06-2014, 09:34 AM   #92
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You two need to read more into the vargas and pure turbos. Those are making great power on the N55 and although they haven't had to stand the test of time they are making great power, in the mid 400's to 500's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
Yes, it does. I've been told now by three German tuners this(Tuning Werke / Mannhart Racing / MS Tuning). The N55 can only handle ~360 PS on the internal engine components. higher than that and you will need to start beefing things up.

I've also heard that the N54 was originally designed for 380 PS for use in the Z4 sDrive 3.5is but BMW's board nix'd that idea. I guess that was back when a Z4M model was being considered. Instead we got a badge and trim package'd Z4 in VO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkrom View Post
Thanks that was my understanding too, that the motor itself was the weak point, not the turbo or lack of tuning.

Not that its "weak" but the N54 seems to be pretty over built. Lots of people running RB's making 500+ WHP on the N54 platform with a stock motor. I hope to join them some day.

I see so many people talking trash about the JB4, but I've seen plenty of cars running the JB4 and the RB turbos making an easy/safe/reliable 500+ WHP... But of course there are no people selling custom tunes for the JB4...so perhaps that is where some of the confusion is started. Obviously if I were selling my "protunes" I'd be talking trash about the device that does it for you with added engine perimeters and self adapting safety features as well...
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      08-06-2014, 12:14 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by ParkNuts View Post
You two need to read more into the vargas and pure turbos. Those are making great power on the N55 and although they haven't had to stand the test of time they are making great power, in the mid 400's to 500's.
Since everyone else is conveniently ignoring this question maybe you can answer. Those making 400-500 WHP on the N55... Did they or did they not have to build the motor or swap internals etc etc? If not that is awesome news for the N55 crowd.
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      08-06-2014, 01:18 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkNuts View Post
You two need to read more into the vargas and pure turbos. Those are making great power on the N55 and although they haven't had to stand the test of time they are making great power, in the mid 400's to 500's.
I should have added that... while you can make more than 360 PS from a N55... the engine will not last very long. Typically I am told less then 60K kms. So yea... it is possible... but not if you want the engine to hold together in one piece.
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      08-06-2014, 02:07 PM   #95
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Thats just plain too bad. I mean the N55 is a great motor for a stock car for sure. If I didn't have the mod bug I'd be all over the N55, however I smell a set of RB's in my future.
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      08-06-2014, 02:10 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
I should have added that... while you can make more than 360 PS from a N55... the engine will not last very long. Typically I am told less then 60K kms. So yea... it is possible... but not if you want the engine to hold together in one piece.
What evidence do you have to support this? Something you say someone else said isn't very convincing...
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      08-06-2014, 02:12 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Indo Rider View Post
What evidence do you have to support this? Something you say someone else said isn't very convincing...
What ever...
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      08-06-2014, 02:45 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
I should have added that... while you can make more than 360 PS from a N55... the engine will not last very long. Typically I am told less then 60K kms.
I know of a N55 135 that dyno'd at just under 370PS (DMS flash + Forge FMIC) and did 88k miles without issue before being sold.

I also know of another N55 running a similar DMS map (so about 355PS) that did 126k miles without issue.

I know of several JB4'd F20/F21 M135's that are have dyno'd in the 385-395PS range with other hardware bits and have now done 30-40k miles without issue, so I'd be curious as to see if they get any issues long term.
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      08-06-2014, 03:08 PM   #99
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Those examples are like 20PS more than Dack was talking about. I don't think hes saying theres an exact wall like "3 more HP and the car is toast!" or anything.


Just lets see some 450 WHP N55s and see how long they last. I'm not even saying they won't I just think its interesting that very few high power N55s seem to exist. When I ask for info on them I'm told "search they are out there" but it seems hard to come by. I don't think the N55 is going to be a big build 500 HP motor, but I seriously hope I'm wrong. If the N55 can take more power and sustain the 400-500 HP range without issues or changing internals that is awesome.

I promise I'm not trying to start arguments about the N54 being better, I just think that the N55 is going to need internal work to safely run in the power ranges that people are with the N54 without internals.


I've seen a toyota hatch run 7 sec 1/4 mile, so anything is possible with enough work and money, but what I'm getting at is the N55 can only take so much on a stock motor. I'd love to be proven wrong, I just can't find any evidence of the N55 being a stock motor beast in the way the N54 is.
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      08-06-2014, 03:22 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkrom View Post
Those examples are like 20PS more than Dack was talking about. I don't think hes saying theres an exact wall like "3 more HP and the car is toast!" or anything.


Just lets see some 450 WHP N55s and see how long they last. I'm not even saying they won't I just think its interesting that very few high power N55s seem to exist. When I ask for info on them I'm told "search they are out there" but it seems hard to come by. I don't think the N55 is going to be a big build 500 HP motor, but I seriously hope I'm wrong. If the N55 can take more power and sustain the 400-500 HP range without issues or changing internals that is awesome.

I promise I'm not trying to start arguments about the N54 being better, I just think that the N55 is going to need internal work to safely run in the power ranges that people are with the N54 without internals.


I've seen a toyota hatch run 7 sec 1/4 mile, so anything is possible with enough work and money, but what I'm getting at is the N55 can only take so much on a stock motor. I'd love to be proven wrong, I just can't find any evidence of the N55 being a stock motor beast in the way the N54 is.
There's no evidence that it can do better than the N54 and no evidence that it can't, unless you count misinformation about the N54s internals. The only major difference between the N54 and N55 bottom end is the crank, and even then the tensile strength of cast steel and forged steel are similar for OEM cranks, this isnt the 90s where cast IRON cranks were the norm. Unless you're pushing some serious power, most likely the rods or pistons are going to go first in either motor.

Unfortunately we are just now seeing N55s putting down serious numbers so time will tell.
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      08-06-2014, 06:39 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcman View Post
There's no evidence that it can do better than the N54 and no evidence that it can't, unless you count misinformation about the N54s internals. The only major difference between the N54 and N55 bottom end is the crank, and even then the tensile strength of cast steel and forged steel are similar for OEM cranks, this isnt the 90s where cast IRON cranks were the norm. Unless you're pushing some serious power, most likely the rods or pistons are going to go first in either motor.

Unfortunately we are just now seeing N55s putting down serious numbers so time will tell.
I agree.

This discussion is all just theorycrafting at this point.

I will have a turbo upgrade on my n55 within the next year and hope to do 450-500whp, so we'll see how it holds. The cast crank won't even be close to failing at those power levels, it will be rods or rod bearings that go first. Our engines don't push big psi under boost. 20 psi is considered high boost on n55/n54s.
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      08-07-2014, 09:33 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkrom View Post
Those examples are like 20PS more than Dack was talking about. I don't think hes saying theres an exact wall like "3 more HP and the car is toast!" or anything.


Just lets see some 450 WHP N55s and see how long they last. I'm not even saying they won't I just think its interesting that very few high power N55s seem to exist. When I ask for info on them I'm told "search they are out there" but it seems hard to come by. I don't think the N55 is going to be a big build 500 HP motor, but I seriously hope I'm wrong. If the N55 can take more power and sustain the 400-500 HP range without issues or changing internals that is awesome.

I promise I'm not trying to start arguments about the N54 being better, I just think that the N55 is going to need internal work to safely run in the power ranges that people are with the N54 without internals.


I've seen a toyota hatch run 7 sec 1/4 mile, so anything is possible with enough work and money, but what I'm getting at is the N55 can only take so much on a stock motor. I'd love to be proven wrong, I just can't find any evidence of the N55 being a stock motor beast in the way the N54 is.
You say all this from speculation land. Just because you've heard the N54 is better? What actual reasons for you to believe that? The two motors are more similar than you want to believe. The N55 is held back (in stock form) by the turbo, not motor deficiencies, and only now is that issue being seriously addressed with aftermarket options.
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      08-07-2014, 09:35 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
What ever...
Well, I seem to recall you making lots of posts telling people that spark plugs bought at the dealership were different than the same part number Bosch plugs sourced elsewhere and that to avoid misfires and other issues one must buy the dealer plugs... Not trying to rehash that, but it's an example where you had no evidence behind your claims and you were wrong so I don't think it's out of line to ask what evidence you have on this latest assertion.

Hopefully we'll see an n55 get the new PTF kit and run it at 600+whp.
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      08-07-2014, 11:33 AM   #104
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How about this same question but with completely stock turbos. No turbo upgrade on either engines?
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      08-07-2014, 12:08 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuNkY6913 View Post
How about this same question but with completely stock turbos. No turbo upgrade on either engines?
teehee.
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      08-07-2014, 12:26 PM   #106
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did anyone ever get conclusive proof that the E82 n54 had forged pistons? I recall someone attempting to contact Mahle to get a definitive answer but they required the part number on the piston itself, which nobody had at the time.
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      08-07-2014, 12:27 PM   #107
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Quote:
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did anyone ever get conclusive proof that the n54 had forged pistons? I recall someone attempting to contact Mahle to get a definitive answer but they required the part number on the piston itself, which nobody had at the time.
Looks like BMW used forged pistons on the n54 in E9x, but I can't find any info about the E82 n54:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=541474
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      08-07-2014, 12:42 PM   #108
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It'll be interesting to see what happens with the new big ass turbo option for the N55 for sure.
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      08-07-2014, 01:15 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkrom
It'll be interesting to see what happens with the new big ass turbo option for the N55 for sure.
I'm even more curious to see how the big ass twin turbo comes to life. One on top and bottom.
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      08-07-2014, 01:59 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highbrowed View Post
Looks like BMW used forged pistons on the n54 in E9x, but I can't find any info about the E82 n54:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=541474
Wat, the very first post says they are cast via email from Mahle themselves, VAC (in that very thread) and BMS have also confirmed they are cast.
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