Best Practices for Open Diff Driving in Snow

[Kgolf31]

To who drives in deep snow, I need some suggestions.

I currently run Blizzak LM-25 tires, not the best...but I got them used with a season on it to get me through this summer until I get Ice-X tires next year.

Anyways, I'm experience so far, the car doesn't like deep snow at all. Instantly, the car will lose grip in a wheel and go open diff. The DSC tries it best to try and correct, but ends up cutting engine power.

Usually, I'll press the DSC button once to get rid of the e-diff and go full open diff and just hope my best I can spin the tire to get grip.

For example, today I came home to around 7" or so in my driveway, and with a small incline I got the car stuck. I've had no problem with an E92 xDrive with Ice-X tires.

However, this obviously isn't the best solution to try and always turn off traction and hope for the best.


Have anyone tried pulling the e-brake slightly to lock the differential and try and get both wheels to spin with the DSC pressed once?

Ultimately, I'm trying to figure out a way to cope with an open diff. I'm no stranger to driving in snow. I've done with with a FWD car, AWD car, but this is my first RWD car in the snow (I've been driving RWD in high performance situations/summer conditions for 4 years).

And tips/suggestions appreciated.

[3002 tii]

Don't know what to tell you bud. I drive her nice and steady in the snow, only turn traction off if I'm approaching an incline or stuck in deep/wet snow. All other times just keep her steady and straight.

[IEDEI]

like you, this is my first winter with a RWD car and i am running Nokian Hakkapaliita R2s and thus far they have been unbelievable.

I only have one steep incline and that is the exit of my brooklyn parking garage-----for which i have found that playing around with different throttle inputs has made me understand that very light throttle alternating with pulses of more throttle has helped me get up that slope.

i have driven the car on all three settings of traction control in the snow (on, half, and disabled) and have found the car best in either the on or halfway points. The disabled isn't really advised unless you're looking for a good time!

8-10 inches tomorrow? so i guess i'll be keenly checking this thread for others' advice and/or pointers!

I still feel that there is a lot to learn about RWD winter driving, but equipped with great tires has led me to be surprised that it is not nearly as bad as i was expecting. It's no quattro....but i'm pleased.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by 3002 Tii

Don't know what to tell you bud. I drive her nice and steady in the snow, only turn traction off if I'm approaching an incline or stuck in deep/wet snow. All other times just keep her steady and straight.

Yea, I figured so.

I'm going to throw my dad's E92 wheels/tires on my car sooner or later to see how the Ice-Xi2s handle RWD. The offset isn't perfect, but the wheel will only stick out 12mm further. Good enough for a test drive.

The car is awesome in light/moderate snow...Drove 30 minutes home on covered roads with no issues. However come to my street that hasn't been touched all day, and my driveway which I cannot carry speed up I'm screwed.

My street is mostly a slight incline, which lately I've been going up kinda sideways with DSC pressed once to keep momentum.

Originally Posted by IEDEI

like you, this is my first winter with a RWD car and i am running Nokian Hakkapaliita R2s and thus far they have been unbelievable.

I only have one steep incline and that is the exit of my brooklyn parking garage-----for which i have found that playing around with different throttle inputs has made me understand that very light throttle alternating with pulses of more throttle has helped me get up that slope.

i have driven the car on all three settings of traction control in the snow (on, half, and disabled) and have found the car best in either the on or halfway points. The disabled isn't really advised unless you're looking for a good time!

8-10 inches tomorrow? so i guess i'll be keenly checking this thread for others' advice and/or pointers!

I still feel that there is a lot to learn about RWD winter driving, but equipped with great tires has led me to be surprised that it is not nearly as bad as i was expecting. It's no quattro....but i'm pleased.

Getting on/off the throttle seems to help and get some snow thrown out of the way. However the DSC is just stupid and cuts throttle...ultimately the E-Diff "could" work if the engine just wasn't completely robbed of any power, but of course this isn't a perfect world.



Thinking here:

Pressing traction once could eliminate the E-Diff, and then engaging the e-brake slightly could put load on both tires, thus locking the diff and kinda performing like welded diff....right?


PS - We're getting lake effect currently. Going to see an additional 5-9" tonight.

[nunka]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

The car is awesome in light/moderate snow...Drove 30 minutes home on covered roads with no issues. However come to my street that hasn't been touched all day, and my driveway which I cannot carry speed up I'm screwed.

Wouldn't you be running into bumper clearance issues in 7 solid inches of snow? I don't think tires will help much there...

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by nunka

Wouldn't you be running into bumper clearance issues in 7 solid inches of snow? I don't think tires will help much there...

I'm around 6.5 inches of clearance...

My dad's E92 is around the same, and made it up fine.

Anyways...even going up the street there is an issue (slight incline, unplowed snow). Driveway isn't the only issue.

[uwood]

Buy a beater truck. :-)

[alexmtl_135i]

If you drive on snow often, forget about Performance winter tires, buy some proper snow tires. Also, in the winter I'm always DSC, and when things get really snowy I drive with full traction control off (so that I don't get stuck), and switch back to DSC whenever the car made it.

Also, I believe the e-diff is always active, regardless of the traction control setting. That doesn't mean it works well, but hey

[JimD]

Your e-brake idea is worth a try, I guess, but the first thing the electronics do is to brake the spinning wheel. Braking the one spinning wheel seems more likely to work than even lightly braking both rear wheels. If both are spinning, then it would have the same effect. When the tires still spin, that is when power is cut.

I don't drive in slick stuff these days, life in the South is good, but my first car was a 1966 mustang which I drove in Kansas and Missouri. I only got stuck once. But many times I had to carry momentum up a hill to keep moving. One of the many "feel" things is how hard you can hit something like your driveway without sliding off trying to make the turn. You might need to turn in, back down it, and take a run up it. I'd take the DSC completely off for the run up the driveway. You are going to spin from the sounds of things and there is no benefit to having the car fight you. Spinning doesn't mean out of control, as long as traction is similar on both sides you should stay straight.

[MightyMouseTech]

If there is any snow on the roads, the first thing I do is turn of traction control. The tires have to spin a bit to get any traction. Was even told to turn it off in snow during the factory delivery.

And you will be MUCH better off with a much more aggressive winter tire. The LM25 is more like a glorified all-season.

What is the tread depth on them? Often I find people who want to use winter tires "just one more season", are actually on tires that are 100% worn for winter use. Winter tread depth is 4mm minimum.

[tuj]

maintain momentum, that is critical to driving a RWD car with an open diff in snow. Not too much momentum mind you...don't slide off the road.

I used to drive a Miata in snow....

[P90Puma]

DTC/DSC on the 1 press mode or fully off doesn't turn off the e-diff.

Nothing turns off the e-diff.

Do some donuts with the TC off in the snow and you can feel it dragging the brakes.

As for the guy who drives with it fully off, Kudos to you, too often I forget I drive a 400+whp car and I am very thankful for the traction control.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by alexmtl_135i

If you drive on snow often, forget about Performance winter tires, buy some proper snow tires. Also, in the winter I'm always DSC, and when things get really snowy I drive with full traction control off (so that I don't get stuck), and switch back to DSC whenever the car made it.

Also, I believe the e-diff is always active, regardless of the traction control setting. That doesn't mean it works well, but hey

You must of forgot to read my post

I currently run Blizzak LM-25 tires, not the best...but I got them used with a season on it to get me through this summer until I get Ice-X tires next year.

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

If there is any snow on the roads, the first thing I do is turn of traction control. The tires have to spin a bit to get any traction. Was even told to turn it off in snow during the factory delivery.

And you will be MUCH better off with a much more aggressive winter tire. The LM25 is more like a glorified all-season.

What is the tread depth on them? Often I find people who want to use winter tires "just one more season", are actually on tires that are 100% worn for winter use. Winter tread depth is 4mm minimum.

Yea, I got Wheels, LM-25s, and TPMS for $350...and couldn't pass it up TBH

I've been learning that with DTC active the car gets off packed snow alot better than with DSC on.

Tread depth is around 5-6mm. There is a good amount of tread to move snow. I've ran snows in the past, on a FWD Scion and never had these issues. However they were full snows.

In slight snow and slush, the car is awesome. However on unplowed roads that see more than 1-2"...it goes nowhere



Offsets aren't perfect, but I'm going to throw the E92 wheels on my car that have Michelin Ice-Xi2s on and take it up the street and see how it does. Should give me a pretty good sign of the difference.

[IEDEI]

this morning's drive was SOOOOO much fun. 65 miles to my work. almost no traffic...>LOTS of snow....and one hell of a car!!

i am running Hakkapaliitta R2 snow tires. forget all that performance winter crap....get some REAL SNOW TIRES. you won't regret it.

[shah269]

ok here is what i do.
1) Look west...becuase that's where Germany is and curse in French at them....
2) Winter tires...dedicated winter tires....and they don't have to be spendy. I bought those Nexen Winter Guards for like $150 each....so far so good! Loud as hell! But they work!
3) If you are climbing, you can try the slip it into first release the clutch and don't add any gas to see if the car will "climb" out of it's hole. Sometiems it works.

In the end the car really did need a proper LSD but you know those cheep cheep cheeeeeep accountants in Germany went for the electronic system which every one and their brother knows...does not work. But accountants don't care...they drive Volvo's

[ShocknAwe]

A few thoughts for you:

I grew up in MA, been driving in snow all my life. I've only had to drive the 135i in bad cold weather conditions once, and I was stuck with my summer tires, not fun. I enjoy life in the south now so it's been a couple years but the following still applies.

Try to maintain momentum, a little forward progress helps keep your tires clear and will keep you from bogging in.

Do whatever necessary to minimize traction control from kicking on. I like the 1 button press on the DTC in this car, it allows for a little wheelspin before cutting power. See above, you do not want to have your power cut.

If you get stuck, modulate the throttle lightly, don't mash it. Try to pulse out of the bog.

Use your gears to speed up and slow down. Brakes are the enemy. Use them sparingly and lightly. Do not lock up your wheels, ABS is of no use to you in snow/sleet/slush/ice.

Lastly..
Your DSC/DTC and e-Diff are different functions.

[Kgolf31]

Thanks for the advice all. I didn't know the E-Diff still works under DTC...although it doesn't work very well....

Just to clear the air here.

I've driven a E46 325xi w/winter tires and a 5 spd manual. Driving in regular snow isn't an issue for me.

The only problem I'm encountering is when I come home to several inches on my street and driveway, the car just sucks. Sounds like what I was doing before...pressing the Traction button once to active the DTC seems to be the best route. I'm going to try other wheels/tires that are full snows to see if the issue can be corrected. Like I said before and I'll say again:

I realize my tires are winter performance. I got them for a hell of a good deal and running them this winter until I can get tires for next. If the Ice-Xi2s are that much of a difference, I may just pull the LM-25s off and sell them.

[roo97ss]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

this morning's drive was SOOOOO much fun. 65 miles to my work. almost no traffic...>LOTS of snow....and one hell of a car!!

i am running Hakkapaliitta R2 snow tires. forget all that performance winter crap....get some REAL SNOW TIRES. you won't regret it.

Nice choice in wheels. Offset is perfect on them. I was supposed to paint mine this year and never got around to it so I'm stuck with silver agains this winter.

I knew today wasn't a day for the car. Live by some open fields and the snow was drifted bumper height on my 2" lifted dodge ram so no set of winter tires would have gotten the 135 through there.

The car isn't bad, as long as you keep it at least at 1 DSC off level or even fully off. I can't even drive mine in the wet without it never mind snow. The throttle power cut is incredibly intrusive in the BMW. The stability control in my dodge ram does a better job (that's something i thought i'd never say...) of braking without shutting the damn can down like the 135 does.

Back on topic, X drive in the BMW with snow tires is far superior to the rwd 135 anyday. NO set of tires will make your car as good as your dad's car with it's winter tires. (we've had a 530xi, x3, and now x6...all running summer/snow seasonal tires and they are excellent in the inclement weather; better to get going, better in turns.)

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by roo97ss

Nice choice in wheels. Offset is perfect on them. I was supposed to paint mine this year and never got around to it so I'm stuck with silver agains this winter.

I knew today wasn't a day for the car. Live by some open fields and the snow was drifted bumper height on my 2" lifted dodge ram so no set of winter tires would have gotten the 135 through there.

The car isn't bad, as long as you keep it at least at 1 DSC off level or even fully off. I can't even drive mine in the wet without it never mind snow. The throttle power cut is incredibly intrusive in the BMW. The stability control in my dodge ram does a better job (that's something i thought i'd never say...) of braking without shutting the damn can down like the 135 does.

Back on topic, X drive in the BMW with snow tires is far superior to the rwd 135 anyday. NO set of tires will make your car as good as your dad's car with it's winter tires. (we've had a 530xi, x3, and now x6...all running summer/snow seasonal tires and they are excellent in the inclement weather; better to get going, better in turns.)

i've been driving Audis with quattro for the past 12 years. the MOST important thing about driving in winter is the DRIVER. then the TIRES. then the car.

this is my first RWD car....and it's fine!

[alexmtl_135i]

BTW you might want to add a couple of bags of sand in the boot. Added weight there does help !

[Pyrat 2]

Not too much you can do. Good snow tires. Narrower are better. I put 17s with 215s on my 330 instead of 18s with 225s. Full tank o gas. lsd works wonders in the white stuff. No master driving tricks that I've found though.

I suppose lifting the car a couple inches may help in the deep stuff.

[granracing]

Expecting a non 4WD or AWD car to do well in 7" of snow isn't realistic. In a couple of inches, oh yeah!

My wife was asking my how I feel so confident in the snow. I also LOVE racing in the rain, which many of the general approaches and techniques carry over. For snow conditions, here are a few tips:

* Snow tires are key. I had a Civic si with decent tires and struggled to get the car up even minor hills. I later put on good snow tires and the car was absolutely fantastic on snowy roads. There's a huge difference.
* Know your personal driving and car's limitations. Just because you can get going okay doesn't mean you can stop or turn.
* Less is more. My goal is to provide the car the least amount of inputs necessary. Turn as little as possible, brake lightly, throttle smoothly. Unless you're having fun in a fairly controlled environment.
* Braking - no matter how confident I feel, I brake for an intersection early and smoothly. You never know when there is black ice under the snow.
* Confidence. This is HUGE as previously stated. If you know what the car will do under various situations, you'll be prepared. If you slide, do NOT panic.
* Looking forward. Don't stare at the car or road just directly in front of you. Look further ahead. Your car will go where your eyes will.
* Turn right to go left. Couldn't help mention a Lighting McQueen line! It's true, if you are sliding undo the steering wheel a bit, then gradually provide more input.
* Know where you can take "risks". I don't mean be stupid. Feel out the conditions a bit. You're coming to a stop sign with no cars, people, or items you could hit. Brake early and harder than you normally would. How does the car react in those conditions?
* Go at your own pace. I admit that I get frustrated when someone in front of me is going slow, but if that's all they feel comfortable doing safely they should keep going at that pace. Don't let other drivers pressure you. If you find a safe place to do it, pull over and let them go by. Nothing wrong with doing that.

I apologize if that was too basic and not entirely what the OP was talking about, but maybe it'll help at least one or two people.