My new StopTech/Apex setup on 128i

[Donny Rino1]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Such a stupid question.

What makes you think that he cannot push those brakes to the limit?

Because the car simply doesn't have enough power to warrant such an expensive upgrade .

[..]

Originally Posted by Donny Rino1

Sooooooo I have to ask this ....why would you spend all that money on a car that isn't capable enough to use those brakes to there fullest ?

I agree with this, however not in the way it was addressed. I always found it unusual when owners add a BBK to a vehicle with poor performance. At that point is seems purely Cosmetic/Aesthetic. Why does a 128i require that much stopping force?

I know I will get the typical responses, "It's his car he can do what he wants with it" but I would just like to know the reasoning behind this.

No offense to OP. I am asking sincerely out of curiosity.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by Donny Rino1

Because the car simply doesn't have enough power to warrant such an expensive upgrade .

..........

You've never been on a track have you? You will never understand then, which really shows in your poor reasoning.

The car is capable of easily reaching 130+ on some tracks and you need brakes that can stop every single time with the same consistency of the last.

BBK offers that, where you can trust the brakes more-so than normal calipers when you're pushing the car to the limit.

There is no increase in stopping power/stoppig force. that is a mis-conception.

I don't think you truly understand performance. Just because a car has low HP doesn't mean ANYTHING.

Ever heard of Spec Miata, Spec E30, Spec 944?

[..]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

..........

You've never been on a track have you? You will never understand then, which really shows in your poor reasoning.

The car is capable of easily reaching 130+ on some tracks and you need brakes that can stop every single time with the same consistency of the last.

BBK offers that, where you can trust the brakes more-so than normal calipers when you're pushing the car to the limit.

There is no increase in stopping power/stoppig force. that is a mis-conception.

I don't think you truly understand performance. Just because a car has low HP doesn't mean ANYTHING.

Ever heard of Spec Miata, Spec E30, Spec 944?

I wouldn't say hp doesn't mean "Anything" in regards to the track. I guess it would depend on the track. The nurgburgring, for example contradicts your statement by showing how the American cars have dismantled the Porsches around the lap.

Also, I'm sure upgraded rotors and pads would have sufficed as opposed to an entire BBK.

I guess it's different strokes for different folks. With all the money spent to make this 128i track-able, including upgrading the diff I personally would have just bought an E46 M3.

50/50 weight distribution, LSD, 330hp, naturally aspirated straight 6 high revving, longer wheel base, and precision handling. The car is ready to be tracked from factory.

But again, not my car. I respect others choices and opinions.

[clutch128]

Originally Posted by DurimOne54

I guess it's different strokes for different folks. With all the money spent to make this 128i track-able, including upgrading the diff I personally would have just bought an E46 M3.

The decision to go for the upgrade was several years in the making. It's always a balance between a variety of factors when you choose to upgrade. When I first bought the car four years ago I had no idea I would ever track it and beyond that enjoy the experience so much. I've put a ton of personal labor into the car and know it very well, particularly in terms of handling setup at this point. I have no experience with an E46 or other cars and I don't really feel like making a big car change over just to find the perfect track car. I completely agree what I've arrived at isn't it

However, there are I think a few reasons a brake upgrade can make sense. Maybe not worth the money, but sense in terms of other goals. For me, as I've gotten better i've really wanted a few things in the braking setup that I don't have with stock. Being able to swap out pads easily is a big one. But, more importantly, just getting the experience of having a higher degree of modulation, particularly at threshold was a big deal for me. I only have 20k miles on the car after four years and plan on keeping it potentially another decade. So, for me, the costs can get amortized over a long period. Again, personal decision. I never said in any of my earlier posts anyone should do what i've done.

[Donny Rino1]

Originally Posted by clutch128

The decision to go for the upgrade was several years in the making. It's always a balance between a variety of factors when you choose to upgrade. When I first bought the car four years ago I had no idea I would ever track it and beyond that enjoy the experience so much. I've put a ton of personal labor into the car and know it very well, particularly in terms of handling setup at this point. I have no experience with an E46 or other cars and I don't really feel like making a big car change over just to find the perfect track car. I completely agree what I've arrived at isn't it

However, there are I think a few reasons a brake upgrade can make sense. Maybe not worth the money, but sense in terms of other goals. For me, as I've gotten better i've really wanted a few things in the braking setup that I don't have with stock. Being able to swap out pads easily is a big one. But, more importantly, just getting the experience of having a higher degree of modulation, particularly at threshold was a big deal for me. I only have 20k miles on the car after four years and plan on keeping it potentially another decade. So, for me, the costs can get amortized over a long period. Again, personal decision. I never said in any of my earlier posts anyone should do what i've done.

Spoken like a gentleman, I now completely understand . You deserve the credit for putting so much time money and effort into your car .

[..]

Originally Posted by Donny Rino1

Spoken like a gentleman, I now completely understand . You deserve the credit for putting so much time money and effort into your car .

+1

Respect

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by DurimOne54

I wouldn't say hp doesn't mean "Anything" in regards to the track. I guess it would depend on the track. The nurgburgring, for example contradicts your statement by showing how the American cars have dismantled the Porsches around the lap.

Also, I'm sure upgraded rotors and pads would have sufficed as opposed to an entire BBK.

I guess it's different strokes for different folks. With all the money spent to make this 128i track-able, including upgrading the diff I personally would have just bought an E46 M3.

50/50 weight distribution, LSD, 330hp, naturally aspirated straight 6 high revving, longer wheel base, and precision handling. The car is ready to be tracked from factory.

But again, not my car. I respect others choices and opinions.

First off, upgraded rotors?

An E46 M3 is far from a track ready car. FAR.

The LSD in the M is an M-Variable...not ideal of hard track use as it essentially goes to open diff as it wears down.

Precision Handling? Ughh, the suspension still needs work. It is far too soft.

All, once again observations from me driving my Z4M on the track. Sure, it can be tracked as is, but it needs alot of work.

[..]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

First off, upgraded rotors?

An E46 M3 is far from a track ready car. FAR.

The LSD in the M is an M-Variable...not ideal of hard track use as it essentially goes to open diff as it wears down.

Precision Handling? Ughh, the suspension still needs work. It is far too soft.

All, once again observations from me driving my Z4M on the track. Sure, it can be tracked as is, but it needs alot of work.

Upgraded rotor as in cross-drilled, slotted, etc.

Yes it would need work but remember I am only comparing it to that of a 128i.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by DurimOne54

Upgraded rotor as in cross-drilled, slotted, etc.

Yes it would need work but remember I am only comparing it to that of a 128i.

Thank you.

That post shows me you do not know anything you're talking about.

Thanks for playing.

[Donny Rino1]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Thank you.

That post shows me you do not know anything you're talking about.

Thanks for playing.

You are clearly an asshole.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by Donny Rino1

You are clearly an asshole.

he may be an asshole, but he's not wrong lol

[..]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Thank you.

That post shows me you do not know anything you're talking about.

Thanks for playing.

Please elaborate.

Originally Posted by flinchy

he may be an asshole, but he's not wrong lol

On what grounds?

I simply stated that upgrading your rotors and pads would be more than sufficient.

[hoki06]

Originally Posted by DurimOne54

Please elaborate.



On what grounds?

I simply stated that upgrading your rotors and pads would be more than sufficient.

If you would do some research instead of reading marketing material you'd quickly find this info...

"Upgrading" rotors to slotted/drilled rotors is a great way to introduce stress concentrations into your rotor. Most, if not all, cheaper "upgraded" rotors have the slots/holes that are cut/drilled AFTER the casting process which then becomes a stress riser and a great place for premature cracking to begin. Here's a quick example of a Corvette rotor when tracked, notice where the cracks are located.





Rotors used to be drilled to help gases from older design pads escape, like the old style asbestos pads. Today's compounds do not have this "gassing" and therefore do not need the holes.

Rotors you see high end street cars or racing teams use that are slotted have the slots built into the original cast of the rotor, therefore not being a stress riser like cheaper alternatives. Most racing teams use slotted rotors (if allowed by the sanctioning body) to help clean the face of the pad thus reducing glazing at high speeds. Notice how the Stoptech kit in the OP has thin slots in the face of the rotor.

Any drilled rotors you see on cars these days are purely for aesthetics and serve no performance advantage. And putting slotted rotors on a street car is essentially a waste of money unless you are tracking the car in which they might be justifiable.

All this info has been known and backed up with research for years but most people are too lazy to do their own research besides reading product descriptions of the fancy slotted/drilled/whatever rotors.

Kgolf31 might be sound like an asshole but at least he knows what he's talking about.

[hoki06]

Originally Posted by clutch128

That's a very interesting set of pictures. FWIW I was told by those smarter than me to get slotted. Is this cracking part of the reason? Or, is the cracking just due to crappy rotors and that would happen with crappy slotted too?

I'm assuming they recommended you buy the slotted for the reasons I described above: drilled rotors have no real advantage and only crack quicker than blanks or properly slotted.

The only positive to drilled rotors I've seen is they can help reduce brake pad hydroplaning in very wet conditions but the negatives (cracking, loss of pad contact area, loss of heat capacity) outweigh that positive.

[clutch128]

Originally Posted by hoki06

I'm assuming they recommended you buy the slotted for the reasons I described above: drilled rotors have no real advantage and only crack quicker than blanks or properly slotted.

The only positive to drilled rotors I've seen is they can help reduce brake pad hydroplaning in very wet conditions but the negatives (cracking, loss of pad contact area, loss of heat capacity) outweigh that positive.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by hoki06

Kgolf31 might be sound like an asshole but at least he knows what he's talking about.

There is only so many times I can say something before coming out like a dick.

Lets set this all straight, we had someone come into this thread and tell OP essentially it was a waste of money, never needed...yada yada.

Just disproving every statement that was provided. That is all

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by DurimOne54

Please elaborate.



On what grounds?

I simply stated that upgrading your rotors and pads would be more than sufficient.

Durim, you are simply out of your element here. Listen to Kgolf31 and you might actually learn a thing or two.

To make it 100% clear, BBKs do not change "stopping force". They increase heat capacity. That increase is something that is needed with any car that sees serious track use. Higher horsepower cars will need more, but that is why there is more than one size of BBK.

The E46 M3 is not set up for the track out of the box. Properly driven, the stock brakes and suspension simply are not up for the task. Plus the subframe should be reinforced before you even start.

[nate340]

I feel attempting to upgrade the stock brakes in a one series is a waste of time. I really wish someone would have told me this before I spent money upgrading my brake pads to hawk hp+ with titanium shims.It worked reasonably well for one track event, only at the end of the day did the brake pedal get really soft.

So then I decided to rebuild my calipers using Racing Brake’s stainless steel caliper pistons. I heard a lot about them and how they transmit less heat to the brake fluid than the stock aluminum pistons. I also kept the titanium shims in there for added security yet 5 laps in my expensive Motul RBF 660 Pro Racing Brake Fluid boils and I'm left using my left foot to pump the brakes down the straight in an attempt to stop my brake pedal going to the floor and having me go off track.

So now after spending $400 on brake pads $900 on stainless steel pistons $100 for titanium shims also bending out my dust shield I’m left with a car that can’t stop after 5 laps on track. So now I’m considering buying Racing Brake’s $1200 larger 2 piece rotors and designing some sort of brake cooling ducts or just go buy a BBK from stop tech.

I really wish i just went straight to the BBK

[Nugget]

That is the same conclusion I came to. Go with the Stoptech and never look back.

[jafo1701]

I've just recently rebuilt my front calipers to the racing brake kit. My first track day this year is in a week. I've never had my brake fluid boil before even with my stock calipers. I did have brake fade once but that was with stoptech street performance pads up front. Since I've changed over to a dedicated track pad i haven't had any issues. I use the Carbotech XP 10 pads. Granted I'm only driving intermediate so maybe I'm not braking hard enough. I noticed the previous op ran Hawk HP+ pads. Maybe they were part of the issue. From what I've heard they will not hold up on the track.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by jafo1701

I've just recently rebuilt my front calipers to the racing brake kit. My first track day this year is in a week. I've never had my brake fluid boil before even with my stock calipers. I did have brake fade once but that was with stoptech street performance pads up front. Since I've changed over to a dedicated track pad i haven't had any issues. I use the Carbotech XP 10 pads. Granted I'm only driving intermediate so maybe I'm not braking hard enough. I noticed the previous op ran Hawk HP+ pads. Maybe they were part of the issue. From what I've heard they will not hold up on the track.

The HP+ are okay, but it is difficult to threshold brake on them, as they like to fade out towards end of sessions.

Before I went dedicated pads on my Z4M I used HP+. I got to the point where you started smelling the brakes and knew I cooked them past their usable temperature.