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      04-30-2007, 07:30 AM   #23
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For those who dont know yet, that 4.0 v8 is 50lb lighter than 3.2 inline 6..
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      04-30-2007, 08:27 AM   #24
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My guess is we'll see a 230hp 128i and that it will account for the vast majority of sales. My preference will be for that or a 130i.

Can't imagine too many people getting exited about a 4-cyl - it's very risky for this segment unless there are obvious green benefits. They can't be perceived as just offering a cheap BMW, a la 318ti. I'd hope they hold off on a 4-cyl until they can introduce a hybrid and market a truly enviro-friendly car.
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      04-30-2007, 12:25 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by spudwest View Post
My guess is we'll see a 230hp 128i and that it will account for the vast majority of sales. My preference will be for that or a 130i.

Can't imagine too many people getting exited about a 4-cyl - it's very risky for this segment unless there are obvious green benefits. They can't be perceived as just offering a cheap BMW, a la 318ti. I'd hope they hold off on a 4-cyl until they can introduce a hybrid and market a truly enviro-friendly car.
I too am very interested in the 130i, but I have issues with the 128i. Granted the real world performance between the two will not be significant, but what bothers me is the fact that it is an engine that's been poorly detuned for marketing reasons. It makes 30 less ponies than the fully tuned 260HP version, and yet gets worse mileage in the 328i compared to the 330i. This is a version of the engine that does not even exist in Europe.

And of course it would cost BMW next to nothing to tune it to the full potential, as the only difference between the two version is ECU programming and maybe a different intake manifold. But no, that will not push enough people to buy the turbo, or it'll upset the first year E90 buyers, or something.

I don't know. At the end I guess I can just suck it up and accept the fact that it can't be perfect, but that big flamey headlamps and detuned engine are the two reservations I have on this car.
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      04-30-2007, 12:36 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by spinzero View Post
I too am very interested in the 130i, but I have issues with the 128i. Granted the real world performance between the two will not be significant, but what bothers me is the fact that it is an engine that's been poorly detuned for marketing reasons. It makes 30 less ponies than the fully tuned 260HP version, and yet gets worse mileage in the 328i compared to the 330i. This is a version of the engine that does not even exist in Europe.

And of course it would cost BMW next to nothing to tune it to the full potential, as the only difference between the two version is ECU programming and maybe a different intake manifold. But no, that will not push enough people to buy the turbo, or it'll upset the first year E90 buyers, or something.

I don't know. At the end I guess I can just suck it up and accept the fact that it can't be perfect, but that big flamey headlamps and detuned engine are the two reservations I have on this car.
I couldn't agree more! My wife used to drive an E36 323is. What could have been a great car was hampered intentionally for marketing purposes with restrictive intake/exhaust just to provide a better spread to the (then current) 328is. It was stupid. Still a good car, but what a waste of potential! A similarly-created 128i would be a continuation of that wrong-headed approach.
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      04-30-2007, 01:55 PM   #27
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Look at it this way guys. The base 1 will more than likely get the SAME engine the 3 and 5's get. It puts a smile on my face. I strongly doubt that there will be a 130i.
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      04-30-2007, 02:34 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by onehots2k View Post
Look at it this way guys. The base 1 will more than likely get the SAME engine the 3 and 5's get. It puts a smile on my face. I strongly doubt that there will be a 130i.
unfortunately you're probably right which will force me into the turbo rather than a 128 whereas I would've been happy with a 130(with D.I. putting out 260-270hp/230ft-lbs.).
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      04-30-2007, 02:48 PM   #29
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unfortunately you're probably right which will force me into the turbo rather than a 128 whereas I would've been happy with a 130(with D.I. putting out 260-270hp/230ft-lbs.).
Well BMW's strategy is indeed working. :mad:
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      04-30-2007, 03:12 PM   #30
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Well BMW's strategy is indeed working. :mad:
yup, unfortunately.
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      04-30-2007, 03:50 PM   #31
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Sounds like we're headed towards lots of 135 coupes and 128 cabrios to me.
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      04-30-2007, 10:54 PM   #32
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Can someone enlighten me to the main reasons why they would want the 260hp 3.0 over the 300hp twin-turbo??? I'm trying to understand but the engine in the 335i's is a marvel. I wouldnt even have to think twice about it.
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      04-30-2007, 11:09 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by onehots2k View Post
Can someone enlighten me to the main reasons why they would want the 260hp 3.0 over the 300hp twin-turbo??? I'm trying to understand but the engine in the 335i's is a marvel. I wouldnt even have to think twice about it.
I'm with you, man. But I guess the main reason would be what it always is: Money.
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      05-01-2007, 07:23 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by eMINI View Post
But I guess the main reason would be what it always is: Money.
That's it. That and juggling the budget for the household...while ensuring domestic tranquility. :wink:
Of course most of us would rather have the twin-turbo. No question about that.

The 1-er is penciled in for a May/2008 N/A debut - I want to see the hard $ numbers...then I can start to put together a car that's as close to perfect for me as I can get it.

I've been saying this mantra for months..."small, sporty, premium," but I should also add "bang-for-the buck."
I'm getting a 1-er coupe, that's definite in my plans.
But I'd like to think that I'm a savvy shopper who wrings maximum value out of every dollar spent.
If I have to suffer gaining a second from 0-60 in order to do that...so be it.
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      05-01-2007, 08:01 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onehots2k View Post
Can someone enlighten me to the main reasons why they would want the 260hp 3.0 over the 300hp twin-turbo??? I'm trying to understand but the engine in the 335i's is a marvel. I wouldnt even have to think twice about it.
mainly financial reasons-lower payment, more fuel efficient, lower insurance, but also slightly more eco-friendly and arguably more tossable if it weighs 150lbs. less.
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      05-01-2007, 08:41 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onehots2k View Post
Can someone enlighten me to the main reasons why they would want the 260hp 3.0 over the 300hp twin-turbo??? I'm trying to understand but the engine in the 335i's is a marvel. I wouldnt even have to think twice about it.
s2k, of course money is a big part of it too, but some people just prefer NA over FI.

In my case, it isn't that I don't like FI. In fact, the thing that I like the most about my WRX is the addictive turbo midrange. But for my next car, I want something that is similar to the WRX in spirit (fun, practical small car) but different in execution. RWD vs. AWD, NA vs. FI, Euro vs. Japanese, etc. It's just more interesting that way.

Besides, I think there are some distinct advantages of N52/53 over N54. The first is the weight. One of the reasons that the 1 is appealing to many is that it's supposed to be light, but the 135i is very unlikely to come in anywhere under 3300lbs. That is still fine considering the power, but it's enough to change the character of the car. A 130i, on the other hand, is likely to weigh about 200lbs lighter than that, which is not a small difference compared to the total weight.

Then there's a question of whether 300lbs-ft of torque going to the rear wheels of a car that'a the size of a E30 would make a good daily driver. I think there should be a balance between the size and purpose of the car and its power, and 3.0TT seems a bit too much for what I envision the 1er to be.

Maybe you like the idea of the turbo because your current car is one of the ten modern wonders? (the torqueless kind of course :biggrin
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      05-01-2007, 08:50 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onehots2k View Post
Can someone enlighten me to the main reasons why they would want the 260hp 3.0 over the 300hp twin-turbo??? I'm trying to understand but the engine in the 335i's is a marvel. I wouldnt even have to think twice about it.
There are a lot of things I wouldn't think twice about were cost no object. Ducati Monster, Aston Martin, cottage in the Muskokas... The list goes on...:thumbup:

But if BMW is reading this, as I'm sure they are, there is an abundant market for a reasonably priced 1-er with an i6 motor. No 4-cyl models, please, unless it's to complement a 128i or 130i and the 135i as a credible green :respekt: option.

But the sweet spot will be a 128i or a 130i for the enthusiasts that want to balance cost and performance. 135i will be all well and nice if you've got a fair amount of spare cash and a brother-in-law in insurance...
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      05-01-2007, 09:37 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spinzero View Post
s2k, of course money is a big part of it too, but some people just prefer NA over FI.

In my case, it isn't that I don't like FI. In fact, the thing that I like the most about my WRX is the addictive turbo midrange. But for my next car, I want something that is similar to the WRX in spirit (fun, practical small car) but different in execution. RWD vs. AWD, NA vs. FI, Euro vs. Japanese, etc. It's just more interesting that way.

Besides, I think there are some distinct advantages of N52/53 over N54. The first is the weight. One of the reasons that the 1 is appealing to many is that it's supposed to be light, but the 135i is very unlikely to come in anywhere under 3300lbs. That is still fine considering the power, but it's enough to change the character of the car. A 130i, on the other hand, is likely to weigh about 200lbs lighter than that, which is not a small difference compared to the total weight.

Then there's a question of whether 300lbs-ft of torque going to the rear wheels of a car that'a the size of a E30 would make a good daily driver. I think there should be a balance between the size and purpose of the car and its power, and 3.0TT seems a bit too much for what I envision the 1er to be.

Maybe you like the idea of the turbo because your current car is one of the ten modern wonders? (the torqueless kind of course :biggrin
Thanks for the good responses fellas. But spin kinda nailed it for me. I mean i enjoy reving my car straight up to 8200,(earlier models go to 9,000) I mean this is as much fun as NA can get for less than 35k. But I on the other hand have had a "thirst for boost" for a long time. Yeah I know its crazy for such a little car to have a twin-turbo engine. I'm prepared to go for the turbo if as long as its no more than $5,000. ***And as far as the whole nose-heavy issue goes. I doubt BMW would release this car with much less than 50/50 weight distribution. But i see what ur saying about the weight, more in the front from the turbos, more would have to be put in the back to balance things out. I dunno, its a win-win deal anyway with this car. Personally, i would be unhappy with a slower car than my s2000. So its gotta beat 5.4 to 60 and 14.0 quartermile. im looking for a sole sucessor to my car, but i suspect most of you guys already have something else.
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      05-01-2007, 12:27 PM   #39
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It'll be hard to go wrong, whatever the engine. And if the 135i is within reach, I'd love to have the extra power. It'll be the craziest little coupe out there until the M1 comes along...
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      05-01-2007, 03:51 PM   #40
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128i - Not for Sporting Enthusiasts but Suitable for Cabrio

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Originally Posted by spudwest View Post

But the sweet spot will be a 128i or a 130i for the enthusiasts ...
A "128i" (presumably with the same engine as the current 328 coupé) couldn't possibly be for a true enthusiast because it's essentially a de-tuned 3 liter engine that produces at least 40 horsepower less in the high RPM range than what it should be, compared with the real thing, yet only slight benefits in overall gas mileage. Of course, this peculiar engine isn't even available in Germany. Putting a de-tuned engine like that into a small car that is supposed to bring back performance would be sheer idiocy, in my opinion, a case where the engineers wind up taking a back-seat to the marketing folks. This actually happened with Porsche, in the case where they pointedly failed to include a limited slip differential in their Cayman models, because that important feature would make them perform too well.

The new M1 will surely get neither of the two top-end 3 liter engines already out on the market but likely a normally aspirated version, utilizing the direct injection technology developed jointly by Bosch and Siemens VDO, in the range between 3 and 3.5 liters, quite possibly 3.2 liters, as was the case with the outdated M3. Months ago I saw BMW testing what presumably was this new version over in Garching, north of Munich, where BMW's M division is located, and which is also home to the mechanical engineering department of Munich's university of technology. (The car had blinkers located on the side view mirrors, like Mercedes.) The point is, that BMW has had plenty of developmental time to be able to formally introduce all three versions (coupé, cabriolet, and M) at the Frankfurt auto fair im mid September (which is also during the time of Munich's Oktoberfest), even though some of them might not go on sale until a few months later. Perhaps the coupé version would get somewhat of a teaser pre-introduction at the opening of the new BMW Welt (BMW World) delivery center, across from the Olympic stadium, during the summer. This will be a big local spectacle and coincides with the re-opening of the museum at its old location. In any case, if BMW formally introduces both M3 and M1, plus 1 series coupé and cabrio, at tghe world's most important auto show, they would more than make up for their lack of anything spectacular at the last fair there, in 2005.

Getting back to the 128 with de-tuned engine: Since Scott26 previously stated in a different thread ("front bumper...") that the small rag-top cabrio would be targeted to the female purchaser, I suppose this model could be the ideal recipient of such a de-tuned engine, if BMW really feels they have to offer this to the American consumer in the small model too. The lower value of the de-tuned engine could be used as an excuse to keep the price of the cabrio nearly identical to that of the coupé. Offering both coupé and cabrio models at nearly identical price points would certainly yield important marketing information. Compared to the coupé, the cabrio won't really be about high-end performance anyway, but more about style or showing off to make some kind of lifestyle statement that will be carefully nurtured by the image campaign associated with it. In this regard, the cabrio ad campaign might also feature a really slick, soft orgasmic-themed soundtrack to entice the trendy, urban Cosmopolitan-drinking single female, something suggestive, along the line of what one gets when hitting the Cointreau web site:

http://www.becointreauversial.com/home.php

BMW has featured similar music on their web sites before. In my opinion, this type of sound is more sophisticated than the lyrics "It's a beautiful day" by U2, which is not to say that both styles couldn't be used successfully, depending on the local market circumstances.
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      05-01-2007, 05:19 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by ZweierCoupe View Post
Putting a de-tuned engine like that into a small car that is supposed to bring back performance would be sheer idiocy, in my opinion, a case where the engineers wind up taking a back-seat to the marketing folks.
And I expect that is EXACTLY what is going to happen.

I hope that your enthusiastic expectations (from this and previous posts) do come true, but I have a feeling that you might be in for a lot of disappointment. For example I remember you brought up Recaro style shell seats, but unless they figure out how to mount side airbags on those, the 1 is very unlikely to become the only car in the US market to have such seats.

Besides, no reviews I have read on the 1 so far indicate that it drives anything like the older bimmers that people like to connect this car to. That is not to say that the 1 is a bad car, but I expect it to be more of a slightly more exciting and less costly version of the 3 than a true reincarnation of the 2002. It may be marketed as such, but that doesn't mean that you have to buy into that. It has full electric assisted steering for god's sake.

I hope I'm wrong, and I hope the coupe is a significant improvement over the hatch, which is already a good car with its own niche. But I remain skeptical.
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      05-01-2007, 06:35 PM   #42
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Gone are the days of simple BMW's that truly put the driver in touch with the road. For that matter, BMW's have probably never been simple when compared to competing manufacturers, or earlier BMW's. What we can expect instead are very sophisticated, well-engineered cars that exhibit exceptional handling (and, in the case of a 3.0TT, generous power).

Based on 40K miles in the MINI, I'm also optimistic that BMW will take this opportunity to deliver a lot of driving excitement as well. And, when you get down to it, that may be the way to let us have our cake and eat it too! OTH, if it's only slightly more exciting than the 3, they will have missed a huge opportunity to create an instant classic.
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      05-01-2007, 07:06 PM   #43
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Gone are the days of simple BMW's that truly put the driver in touch with the road. For that matter, BMW's have probably never been simple when compared to competing manufacturers, or earlier BMW's. What we can expect instead are very sophisticated, well-engineered cars that exhibit exceptional handling (and, in the case of a 3.0TT, generous power).

Based on 40K miles in the MINI, I'm also optimistic that BMW will take this opportunity to deliver a lot of driving excitement as well. And, when you get down to it, that may be the way to let us have our cake and eat it too! OTH, if it's only slightly more exciting than the 3, they will have missed a huge opportunity to create an instant classic.
Good Points, but if its only slightly better than the 3, it would still be awesome! I mean a 3600lb 192hp 3 series brings a smile to my face. You really cant produce a classic. It just happens ya know. Their are plenty of cars out there that have classic virtues and characteristics that people just dont take to for whatever reason. I'm not expecting this car to have the same effect of the MINI.(which i drove an 03 Mini w/ no sport and and it had an automatic and found it to be soooooo much fun and rewarding)

Someone said it on another forum. If this car comes and is sucessful, it could be the death of sporty FWD coupes as we know it...haha
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      05-01-2007, 07:47 PM   #44
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With regards to the N52/3 vs. N54 argument for this car, both have positive attributes going for them IMO.

The N52/3 is obviously much lighter. This would be my greatest reason for this selection as I want a light, tossable car and it becomes very expensive trying to add "lightness" aftermarket.

The N54, though heavier is much more powerful and is way easier to tune in the aftermarket. I know most of yall don't consider tuning a BMW, but for those that do, having a TT setup equals a lot less money for equal power levels .

So, I guess it would really depend on execution and pricing for me.
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