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      07-09-2007, 10:35 PM   #1
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Lets talk M1........

I'm going to play devils advocate and say.....

Do you really think there's going to be an M1?

How can they do better than the 135i?
If BMW added the previous M3 motor we'll get 333Hp @ 7900 rpm and 262 fl-lb @ 4900 is this really better than the TT 3.0 in the 135i with 300 HP @ 5800 rpm and 300 ft-lb @ 1300 rpm?? :iono: The 135i can be chipped/tuned for way more power...as seen in the 335i.

The only thing I can see BMW offering in a M1 is lighter weight, LSD, and maybe some fender flares.

The has spoken....
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      07-09-2007, 10:53 PM   #2
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Here it goes, I believe there WILL be an M1. They can do much better than a 135i. LSD like you've said and a lighter wait would be VERY important. Lets say the 135i rips to 60 in 4.8 out the box. An M1 would probably do 4.4 seconds.(M5 and M6 do about 4.3sec) Yes you chip your 135i, but the faster you make it the more modifications you will have to do.(Better brakes, suspension work, etc.)

You dont think BMW would put all there cards on the table with the 1 series this fast do you? Its competitors are going to respond to this car with something else. Thats why the M1 is so distant. The M1 would be perfect against the new EVO and STI.

Also, why do you think there will be an M3 CSL....my guess b/c there will be 2 Nissan GTR's for the U.S.

If an M1 is as badass as I think it will be, I will upgrade to one. It'll be like going from a Porsche 911 to a GT3. :biggrin:
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      07-10-2007, 12:04 AM   #3
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Not gonna happen.
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      07-10-2007, 12:17 AM   #4
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I think that it will be a M1. Engine from the previous M3, lighter than the 135i with carbon parts and roof like the new M3, electronical controlled LSD ( I have heard that BMW will make a new ellectronical central unit that will control everything, from the response and speed of the steering wheel to the LSD!), DSG and even sportier interior. The perfect competitor against the new EVO and STI, as onehots2k said.
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      07-10-2007, 01:54 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dinos120ci View Post
The perfect competitor against the new EVO and STI, as onehots2k said.
I think the 135i will be a perfect competitor for the STi/Evo right out of the box from BMW.
Sure wish it had a LSD....

We'll just have to wait for the car mags to do shootouts with these three cars....:thumbup:
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      07-10-2007, 02:36 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335ito135i View Post
Not gonna happen.


+1
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      07-10-2007, 04:26 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335ito135i View Post
Not gonna happen.
-1

My take! - they *will* do an M1, BMW's iconic engine is the normally aspirated straight 6, and with the M3 now a V8 they will come up with a new I6 ///M unit.

The old iron blocked S54 (from the E46 M3) is not an option as it is too dirty and too heavy (217kg c/w N52 at 161kg).

It will be an N52 based 3.0 (maybe slightly bigger) that screams to 8000rpm+ and kicks out 330bhp.

It will weigh around 100kg less than the 135i. and gain an LSD plus obviously the flared fenders etc...and possibly use the 3 door bodyshell as well as the coupé.


:thumbup:

PS although the 135i (especially a chipped one) will be *nearly* as fast they will feel very different, the M being more of a true replacement for the E30 M3, the 135i being more of a GT car.

PPS Plus, didn't Scott say that the 135i will be dropped to make way for the M car ? Presuambly so that it doesn't tread on it's toes power wise, maybe then they'll introduce the full power N52 3.0 (or maybe the N53) with around 270bhp to the US / Europe.
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      07-10-2007, 06:39 AM   #8
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It won't be called an M1 - M135? M2? - but depending on weight issues (preserving the 50/50 balance) use the I6 in the Z4 M, a limited slip diff and a $15K price increase. ; -)
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      07-10-2007, 07:20 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweeper View Post
I think the 135i will be a perfect competitor for the STi/Evo right out of the box from BMW.
Sure wish it had a LSD....

We'll just have to wait for the car mags to do shootouts with these three cars....:thumbup:
It should be interesting to see an STI or EVO trying to pull on a debadged 135i.....AINT GONNA HAPPEN.
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      07-10-2007, 07:54 AM   #10
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IMHO...if BMW produces an M1, it will cannibalize M3 sales. The new M3 may have 400+ hp, but the 135i will become the tuners favorite.

I see the 135i with a CAI, more boost, and a better exhaust out running the new M3.

I was going to get the M3 until I saw the 135i! BMW's answer to Japan.
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      07-10-2007, 09:07 AM   #11
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I just don't see it happening.

First off, if it does happen, the car won't be called an "M1". I believe the folks at BMW are too smart to mess with their brand history like that.

Secondly, I think it would be technically difficult to do an M1. I bet it was hard enough getting the balance and handling right with the N54 in the 135i, I can't imagine how they could stuff a bigger, heavier engine into the car and still maintain the driving dynamics.

There's a saying in the aviation industry that every airplane is a set of flying compromises. You can make it go faster by putting a bigger engine on it, but then you need more fuel for that thirstier engine. More fuel means a bigger wing, which means more drag. And more drag means the airplane slows down, negating the gains of the bigger engine. Every change you make to positively effect one aspect of performance tends to have a negative effect on another aspect of performance. Same holds true to a certain extent for cars. A lot of people are already worried about how much the car will weigh. Put a heavier engine in it, and some of the increased power is wasted simply by having to pull around the increased weight of the engine. Put a bigger, heavier engine in the little 1er, and you have to start moving stuff backward to balance the car out. The car is only so long, and pretty soon you run out of room. That's not to mention the increased rotational inertia of the heavy engine out front; that needs to be counteracted with new suspension. If that new suspension is beefier, it's heavier. More weight.

The effect that increases in mass have on a car are more magnified the smaller a car is. And worse, the effects of the performance tradeoffs are increased as well. I remember driving a mid-90's era Accord with the four cylinder engine and thinking "this is a fun little sedan". Then I drove the six cylinder version and immediately said "no thanks". The plodding, plowing understeering of that nose-heavy six version just wasn't worth the couple of tenths it gained in 0-60 speed.

Sometimes, smaller, simpler and lighter really IS better.

Thirdly, I think that the 1er is intended to be a lot of people's "first BMW". The 128 is the entry level car. The 135 is the first taste of BMW's performance tuning. It's supposed to leave people asking for "just a little bit more". And that's what will drive them to the 3 series, and then on to the M3 a their paychecks grow. If BMW made an M version of the E82, I don't know if they would ever sell another M3.
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      07-10-2007, 09:36 AM   #12
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They wont do an M1 in this generation for a number reasons most people have already hit on:

1. Performance. It would require a lot more than the S54 to get the car to out perform the N54. You forget but the N54 out of the box is producing around 330 horsepower, so unless you go to town with judicious weight saving policies, chances are the M1 would struggle to be as fast as a 135i which has more torque more the time.

2. Cost. Sprouting from the aforementioned, BMW would have to either produce an all-new engine or use a lot of weight-saving policies. Either way, that means more money. It would be very difficult for an M1 to come in at a reasonable enough of a price (say, under 50,000). Developmental costs on new engines and new parts arent quite smart for a car that is already half-way through its production cycle.

3. Need. An M1 would cannibalize M3 sales. People are already asking that question in regards to the 135i vs. 335i and the same would happen here.

My thoughts? An M1 wont happen within the next 4 years BUT I would bet there would be a good chance that in the next generation, BMW moves the lineup to the 2-Series making the naming convention easy to deal with. It will also give BMW more time to get the performance of the car right.
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      07-10-2007, 09:47 AM   #13
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I personally hope for a M1. I prefer the high revving, peakier horsepower of an M engine. My 06 325 moves along nicely with its flat torque curve. But the power on my 91 M5 keeps on building till the redline and you have to work for it. I plan to get the 135 because I cannot argue with 300+ hp for 35k-ish. But I have not driven the n54 yet. So a M1 would be the better car for me(not for the wallet tho)
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      07-10-2007, 09:53 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidl View Post
I personally hope for a M1. I prefer the high revving, peakier horsepower of an M engine. My 06 325 moves along nicely with its flat torque curve. But the power on my 91 M5 keeps on building till the redline and you have to work for it. I plan to get the 135 because I cannot argue with 300+ hp for 35k-ish. But I have not driven the n54 yet. So a M1 would be the better car for me(not for the wallet tho)
David! Do yourself a big favor. Test drive a 335i with an N54. Whooooaaa Nelly!!! It will blow your mind. The one I drove was an automatic and I had 2 other people in the car. I picture it in a smaller lighter package and I cant help but to smile.
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      07-10-2007, 10:19 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onehots2k View Post
David! Do yourself a big favor. Test drive a 335i with an N54. Whooooaaa Nelly!!! It will blow your mind. The one I drove was an automatic and I had 2 other people in the car. I picture it in a smaller lighter package and I cant help but to smile.
Not tried an N54 myself...do they enjoy revs ?

I'm concerned that peak power is at 5800, but like a screamer.
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      07-10-2007, 10:31 AM   #16
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I respect you guys posts about stepping on the M3's toes AND not using the M1 name but they have to. But in my opinion, the old M1 is toast. 98% of BMW owners dont have a clue what it was or that it ever existed. They need to be consisent with there M's. M1, M3, M5, M6. The higher up you go, the more expensive and the more horsepower your going to get. Like someone said, there might not be one for this generation, but there will be an M1. The 135i might have an M tuned suspension and M bits here and there but it is NO M car. A 1M, is not an m car. a M135i or whatever name you can come up with wont be a true M car unless it begins with an M and ends in a 1. END OF STORY.

Scott27, says there will be an M1. Even though his dates might be way off, his information is always ON POINT. BMW is taking a chance.

If I'm an adult with a few kids. There is no way in Hell I am buying an M1. I'll take the M3 or M6. I cant see a business executive rolling into the office in an M1. It would be a bad-ass toy. The M3 would be a practical bad ass toy. This car is not going to eat at the M3 too much. Give me a break. How quickly we forget the 1 series is smaller than a Civic Coupe, Scion Tc, and just about every 15k coupe out there.
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      07-10-2007, 11:10 AM   #17
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I'd be surprised if they made an M1 unless they factory boosted the TT6 to 350 or so HP and added LSD, CF roof and aluminium parts and shaved 200lbs.

The 135 is going to be good competion for the STI/Evo although they target slightly different crowds (sedan/hatch vs luxury coupe). The Evo X is going to be impressive and while the straightline speed might be similar to a 135 I think the handling will be much better.
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      07-10-2007, 11:14 AM   #18
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Not saying they will but for the original M6 it was called a M635csi or something to that effect in the european market. They could do something similar. I don't care what its call though.
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      07-10-2007, 11:18 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onehots2k View Post
The 135i might have an M tuned suspension and M bits here and there but it is NO M car.
In my mind, the fact that they are offering the M bits on the inside and the more aggressive looking aero package on the outside are two of the biggest indicators that there won't be an M1 any time soon.

How does one distinguish an M car from a standard one now? The M car has the M interior trim pieces and unique, more aggressive exterior styling. Bingo. Those two attributes are already in place on the 135i. If there was an M1 planned soon, they wouldn't blur the distinction between the 135i and the M1 by giving the 135i the M components on the inside and an already unique exterior styling.

If there is going to be an M1, that means the 1er will follow the 3er's family paradigm with a "base" model (128i/328i), "upscale" model (135i/335i), and a "performance" model (M1/M3). Now, look at the changes you get when you move from the "base" model to the "upscale" model in the 3 series. There are some very subtle changes in the exterior, mainly in the front facia, but they are difficult to distinguish. The interior is the same, save for different leather colors. So then, why would there be such a radical difference in the exterior and interior styling going from the "base" model 1 series to the "upscale" model 1 series? In other words, if there is to be an M1, why isn't the 135i nothing more than a 128i with a bigger engine, some subtle aero changes, and different paint/leather options?

In my estimation BMW threw the M interior pieces on the 135i, and gave it more aggressive styling because it IS the M1. In addition, this gives them the flexibility of bringing the 120d/123d (or possibly one of their smaller gasoline engines) over to slot in as the "base" model, which instantly makes everything fit nicely with the 128i being the "upscale" model and the 135i being the "performance" model.
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      07-10-2007, 11:20 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onehots2k View Post
David! Do yourself a big favor. Test drive a 335i with an N54. Whooooaaa Nelly!!! It will blow your mind. The one I drove was an automatic and I had 2 other people in the car. I picture it in a smaller lighter package and I cant help but to smile.
I don't want to have my mind blown for a car that may be a few years out for me. I might cause me to do something stupid and buy it sooner than I plan to. Not like that would be too bad tho.:wink:
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      07-10-2007, 11:26 AM   #21
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Personally, I think BMW may have "plans" to build one, and I'm sure it comes up at all the corporate meetings, but from a marketing standpoint, I can almost 100% be certain nothing will be set in stone until a year after the release of the 135i...

They need to see how the US and the rest of the world respond to the car, the US market responds strangely to BMW's, and even though on paper the 135 is what everyone has been asking for, it doesn't mean it's going to sell well....

If the 1 series in the rest of the world tanks, I expect to see BMW hold off...

But if the 135i comes to america and is all the rage, whether it be the tuner world, racing crown, or old age pensioners, BMW will bite at an M1 hoping for most of the owners to upgrade....
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      07-10-2007, 11:52 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Design1stCode2nd View Post
I'd be surprised if they made an M1 unless they factory boosted the TT6 to 350 or so HP and added LSD, CF roof and aluminium parts and shaved 200lbs.
I don't see how they could go with the Twin Turbo 6 for any M car. Isn't it the philosophy of the M Division's engines to be high revving and naturally aspirated? As good as the turbo is, it doesn't have rawer hard edge power delivery of a highly strung E46 M3's 6 or the M5/6's V10.
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