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      07-23-2007, 08:41 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixon View Post
When it comes to engine weight, how about an all-aluminum version of the S54? The 123d's engine is all-aluminum and designed to handle 300 ft/lb torque at much higher compression ratio's than the S54. The 123d comes in 145 lbs lighter than the 135i. They have the technology.

I don't think anyone has mentioned a lower final drive ratio yet. That could give an M1 much more pep, no matter what engine they used.

A moderately tuned twin turbo from the 135i with just ~350 hp and ~350 ft/lb mated to a lower final drive in a lighter car would also give the kind of performance gap that M-buyers would expect.

How about this:
1) Either more HP/torque tuned into the twin turbo out of the factory, or a lightweight high-reving all-aluminum higher HP/torque version of the S54.
2) LSD
3) Lower final drive ratio
4) Carbon fiber roof (sunroof delete obviously)
5) Suspension upgrade
6) cooling system upgrade if the TT is used
7) vader-style lightweight manual adjust performance seats
8) Lighter body panels and suspension parts, etc to get the weight down
9) Unique paints and interiors only for the M1
10) Unique wheels only for the M1
11) No RFT's
12) More modes for more conrol over the electronic babysitters (DSC, traction, etc)
13) short shifter with better feel
14) Warrantee intact on everything.

I think that would be enough market differentation from the 135i to draw buyers to spend more for the M1. It would at least drive a ton of attention on the web to the 135i and the M1. Think of all the posts about whether the M1 was worth the extra cash, or whether just chipping and upgrading a 135i was a better deal... Like in this thread, way before we even know if a 135i and an M1 will ever be sold at the same time. It would be better for BMW sales than endless posts about whether the Audi S3 or whatever is better than the M1 or 135i.

With all that dreaming aside, I would still rather see a less costly 123d in the next round of 1-series cars instead of an expensive M1. I'm sure that opinion isn't very popular with most of the posters on all the BMW boards. But I would bet there would be more actual buyers in the showroom closing the deal to buy an inexpensive 123d, than the number of board posters who would leave the virtual world long enough to close a deal on an M1 in RL.

Were those fighting words? Heh

<flame-resistant underwear on>
But do you think this would still justify the price hike? Id still buy a 135i and turn up the boost via a good engine tuner. Make the same power at less cost. Even the E46s were that different. All the Ms I know, have rediculously long throws. The E46 330i has a shorter throw than the M3.
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      07-23-2007, 08:46 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Won35i View Post
But do you think this would still justify the price hike? Id still buy a 135i and turn up the boost via a good engine tuner. Make the same power at less cost. Even the E46s were that different. All the Ms I know, have rediculously long throws. The E46 330i has a shorter throw than the M3.
Won, it might not justify the price to you. But to others it might man. I'm all about modding it out but you of all people being an M owner should understand. I dont expect highly modded cars to last as long as not so modded cars.
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      07-23-2007, 09:14 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by onehots2k View Post
Won, it might not justify the price to you. But to others it might man. I'm all about modding it out but you of all people being an M owner should understand. I dont expect highly modded cars to last as long as not so modded cars.

all this talk about boosted cars not lasting has really got me thinking about the 1er. im soooo wanting this car but i dont want to end up down that road where some people have by trading there car in every 2 years or so. i look forward to keeping the 1er for a long time but i also look forward to modding it out as much as i can.
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      07-23-2007, 09:17 PM   #70
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I would love to see an M1....

With that said, why did BMW put all of the "goodies" on the 135i? The badging, the brakes, the TT engine. I have no reason to doubt that this source some speak of is telling the truth--I just wonder where the market will come from.

The 1er is going to attract the most enthusiast-minded BMW owners to begin with--you are not going to see those who drive Jettas and the like just make the jump, the car is going to be too expensive for that--it is going to be a niche car, and I am just not certain how another, even smaller niche, can be created for the M1. Seems to me the M1 and 135i buyers are going to come from the same pool--which makes it hard to make money if you produce both cars.

It might have a lot to do with how the 1er coupe is received over here--if the 135i sells very well, BMW might be tempted for the development of the M1--for the next generation of the coupe anyway.
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      07-23-2007, 10:12 PM   #71
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The M version of the 1 Series is a good thing. I would consider an M1. It would make a great daily driver.

And is an M version worth it over the less expensive regular series, modded to outperform? Hell yes.
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      07-23-2007, 10:49 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dumesday4u View Post
all this talk about boosted cars not lasting has really got me thinking about the 1er. im soooo wanting this car but i dont want to end up down that road where some people have by trading there car in every 2 years or so. i look forward to keeping the 1er for a long time but i also look forward to modding it out as much as i can.
Take it as a grain of salt. If you are leaving the car stock, then you have nothing to worry about. The worst thing that turbo motors do is burn oil after time. Its normal and you shouldnt get overly concerned. Now if your going to push 30lbs on stock internals then your asking for trouble.
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      07-23-2007, 10:57 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by onehots2k View Post
Won, it might not justify the price to you. But to others it might man. I'm all about modding it out but you of all people being an M owner should understand. I dont expect highly modded cars to last as long as not so modded cars.
Well One, I dont know. I love my M, but theres always something better to come. I will say I wont trade my M for an E92, I cant justify that for sure. I COULD justify trading it for an M1, but only under certain circumstances. I will be considering the 135, Im a boost junkie. That doesnt mean Ill be turning the boost up to crazy spiking levels. I try to find the mediocrity between performance and longevity. I kept my M stock because I dont really feel a need to touch it. For my purposes, I dont need high dollar modifications. If I hit the track with it, then that would be a different story. I like the thoughts of potential and I feel that anything boosted has much more potential (cost effective potential) than its NA counterpart.

I wont be pushing either car past its daily driven limits performance wise. Again I want longevity, but with longevity comes other aspects. With lots of money, longevity can be attained at high boost applications. Im not saying I suggest or condone this, but if you have the cash dont be afraid to play. I personally refuse to crack the block open so I will never see over a 12-13lb average. I dont want to see spikes part 18-20lbs (thats risky)!

An M will always have a place for me. Ill never truly hate one. I respect the new M3, I just dont particularly favor it at the time. Times change, so maybe Ill be eating my words. On the other hand, being a boost junkie is an addiction.......
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      07-24-2007, 01:02 AM   #74
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I just don't really see a business case (and I doubt BMW will either) for a 50K plus SMALL car with the horrible exchange rates we are facing now and for the forseeable future when the 400hp M coupe/roadster will be out.
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      07-24-2007, 01:35 AM   #75
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Why do these discussion always end up if a non M car is > M car. I thought we were discussing if a M1 will be produced.
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      07-24-2007, 08:25 AM   #76
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In an interview, BMW's M Division Vice President, Gerhard Richter, said that he intends for BMW to sell a CSL version of all future M3s. The CSL version is an extra light-weight version of the M3, designed to be the rawest factory M3 available.

In an interview with Edmunds, Richter said that the M3 CSL has been a success for BMW - and a model that the carmaker shouldn't drop.

Richter also stated that BMW doesn't currently have plans for a full-out M-version of the new 1-Series, but that he would support the idea.
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      07-24-2007, 08:55 AM   #77
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The interview with Richter can be found at Edmund's Inside Line:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=121767
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      07-24-2007, 09:39 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUltimateDriver View Post
In an interview, BMW's M Division Vice President, Gerhard Richter, said that he intends for BMW to sell a CSL version of all future M3s. The CSL version is an extra light-weight version of the M3, designed to be the rawest factory M3 available.

In an interview with Edmunds, Richter said that the M3 CSL has been a success for BMW - and a model that the carmaker shouldn't drop.

Richter also stated that BMW doesn't currently have plans for a full-out M-version of the new 1-Series, but that he would support the idea.
He said currently they dont have plans for one but HE WOULD support it....i love it. If an M boss believes he can top a 135i, I have faith.
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      07-24-2007, 09:58 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUltimateDriver View Post
In an interview, BMW's M Division Vice President, Gerhard Richter, said that he intends for BMW to sell a CSL version of all future M3s. The CSL version is an extra light-weight version of the M3, designed to be the rawest factory M3 available.

In an interview with Edmunds, Richter said that the M3 CSL has been a success for BMW - and a model that the carmaker shouldn't drop.

Richter also stated that BMW doesn't currently have plans for a full-out M-version of the new 1-Series, but that he would support the idea.
If there were an M1 coming would he really say that at this point anyway????? The new M3 must establish itself and is having more than enough issues with that in the media already.
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      07-24-2007, 10:03 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by onehots2k View Post
He said currently they dont have plans for one but HE WOULD support it....i love it. If an M boss believes he can top a 135i, I have faith.
With the success of all the previous Ms, hell Id support the idea as well if I was in his shoes. Lets look at it this way (only because we dont know), the 135i might be the best M replica (if that makes sense). What I mean is looking at all of the other 3 Series none of them compare to the M3. If BMW would follow suite in how we have been talking i.e. a 330-360hp car, then with an M suspension and aero package. The 135i might represent the closest performance level to an M, while still not being an M. If that makes sense...
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      07-24-2007, 10:05 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Maximus Decimus View Post
If there were an M1 coming would he really say that at this point anyway????? The new M3 must establish itself and is having more than enough issues with that in the media already.
additionally the 1 series needs to establish itself in the US market. makes no sense to give anyone a reason to delay their 1 series purchase.

it means nothing, but i do think it will happen at some point.
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      07-24-2007, 10:20 AM   #82
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For now I will get the 135i...it will be plenty fast.

If we see an M1, I will get that next.
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      07-24-2007, 10:21 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by joelk View Post
additionally the 1 series needs to establish itself in the US market. makes no sense to give anyone a reason to delay their 1 series purchase.

it means nothing, but i do think it will happen at some point.
Even if they released an M1, 135i, and 128i, all at once, I think they would all still sell. There are plenty of people out there are not particularly "M-heads". They might like the car, but either not feel it necessary or not like the price point. BMW would still probably see more sales of the 135 and 128 over the M, not only because of preference, but also the low amount of M's released. Also consider that with all of this speculation, the true M heads are just going to wait for the M1 to come out, but if BMW says there will be no M1, then they will buy into the 135i and trade if/when they do release an M1. Hell, If I knew an M1 was coming out I would definitely have to do a comparo of the three: My e46, M1 and 135i, then leave with the best.
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      07-24-2007, 10:25 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by atr_hugo View Post
The diesel is waiting for the implementation of low-sulfer fuel, I would suspect. And based on the info on Scott's post on GCR that 'onehots2k' provided a link for earlier, it would appear that an 'M1er' will be powered by a version of the N52 block. Kinda makes sense because they can shave weight out back when they put the lighter MgAL block in the car.
US has had 15pmm ULSD since early 06. Europe is at 50ppm until 10pmm is mandated in 08, althopugh 10ppm is quite available in some European markets.
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      07-24-2007, 11:14 AM   #85
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I love how all you M fanboi's are so pwned by marketing. M doesn't me a damn thing, all that matters is performance, clear and simple. Here's all the links to performance you need. 335i vs e46 m3. For being such a special "M" car it's amazing how the Performance numbers are always almost the same, but geez, the 335i doens't have lsd, mbrakes, or m's high revving engine. Dont get me wrong, M's are cool, but so are all the other cars that perform at that level.

http://www.autospies.com/news/New-BM...lap-time-8579/

http://www.e90post.com/forums/archiv...p/t-34644.html

Looks like you could add about .5 psi of boost and the 335i would win every time. FLAME ON!
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      07-24-2007, 11:31 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335ito135i View Post
I love how all you M fanboi's are so pwned by marketing. M doesn't me a damn thing, all that matters is performance, clear and simple. Here's all the links to performance you need. 335i vs e46 m3. For being such a special "M" car it's amazing how the Performance numbers are always almost the same, but geez, the 335i doens't have lsd, mbrakes, or m's high revving engine. Dont get me wrong, M's are cool, but so are all the other cars that perform at that level.

http://www.autospies.com/news/New-BM...lap-time-8579/

http://www.e90post.com/forums/archiv...p/t-34644.html

Looks like you could add about .5 psi of boost and the 335i would win every time. FLAME ON!
I don't think that you have to be a fanboi to prefer the M--this has been beaten to death on E90post--yes we know that the 335 with a little of this and that can beat the E46 M3. And we can guess that with a little more of this and that, it might be able to challenge the E92 M3. But the boat you are missing is that IT'S STILL NOT AN ///M. And if you cannot grasp that concept--you will never understand.

Hell, with 10K and a Honda Civic I'm sure I could blow all of the above mentioned cars out of the water. Or maybe it would take 15K--but it could still be done, right? If you have the will and capital, you can mod almost anything into being something that is was never intended to be.

That is the true beauty of the M--there's nothing that needs to be done to it. And such an understanding doesn't make me a fanboi--it just means that I get it.
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      07-24-2007, 11:35 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I don't think that you have to be a fanboi to prefer the M--this has been beaten to death on E90post--yes we know that the 335 with a little of this and that can beat the E46 M3. And we can guess that with a little more of this and that, it might be able to challenge the E92 M3. But the boat you are missing is that IT'S STILL NOT AN ///M. And if you cannot grasp that concept--you will never understand.

Hell, with 10K and a Honda Civic I'm sure I could blow all of the above mentioned cars out of the water. Or maybe it would take 15K--but it could still be done, right? If you have the will and capital, you can mod almost anything into being something that is was never intended to be.

That is the true beauty of the M--there's nothing that needs to be done to it. And such an understanding doesn't make me a fanboi--it just means that I get it.
So what makes an M? The 335i STOCK, not MODDED, if you looked at the links, well, you can't get two cars that are any closer matched.

Define M?
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      07-24-2007, 11:37 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I don't think that you have to be a fanboi to prefer the M--this has been beaten to death on E90post--yes we know that the 335 with a little of this and that can beat the E46 M3. And we can guess that with a little more of this and that, it might be able to challenge the E92 M3. But the boat you are missing is that IT'S STILL NOT AN ///M. And if you cannot grasp that concept--you will never understand.

Hell, with 10K and a Honda Civic I'm sure I could blow all of the above mentioned cars out of the water. Or maybe it would take 15K--but it could still be done, right? If you have the will and capital, you can mod almost anything into being something that is was never intended to be.

That is the true beauty of the M--there's nothing that needs to be done to it. And such an understanding doesn't make me a fanboi--it just means that I get it.
I'm so glad that there are more and more people understanding where I'm coming from on here. I guess I'm a fanboy too...and damn proud too.
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