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      07-24-2007, 11:41 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onehots2k View Post
I'm so glad that there are more and more people understanding where I'm coming from on here. I guess I'm a fanboy too...and damn proud too.

Did you guys miss the part about how the links show that a stock 335i vs stock e46 m3 get nearly identical lap times? No modding needed. But ifyou want to drop a couple k..........
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      07-24-2007, 11:44 AM   #90
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Well a 335i is fast enough for me, a 135 will be a tad faster, I don't trust my driving skills beyond that. If I get a 135 I'll just add some M wheels and maybe bodywork with a flash to up the boost a tiny bit.
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      07-24-2007, 11:46 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by 335ito135i View Post
So what makes an M? The 335i STOCK, not MODDED, if you looked at the links, well, you can't get two cars that are any closer matched.

Define M?
The M is a different car--it is as close to a racing inspired track car that you can get out of BMW. The 335 is a great car--but listen to anyone who has had or driven both a lot and they will tell you why the 335 is a great daily driver. It's because it is missing those elements that make an M different--the handling, feel and driving experience is just different.

And the only reason I mentioned anything about mods in my previous post is because you mentioned changing the boost on the 335.

And I would not buy an M3--but only because I could not afford it. Those who say the extra money isn't worth it are NOT the people BMW are going to be marketing that car to. Keep your 335, play with the boost all you want--its a great car. Its just not an ///M.
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      07-24-2007, 11:48 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by onehots2k View Post
I'm so glad that there are more and more people understanding where I'm coming from on here. I guess I'm a fanboy too...and damn proud too.
I do understand the difference--not sure what I would do if the M1 were available--but unlike some, I do actually get the concept.
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      07-24-2007, 11:49 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335ito135i View Post
Did you guys miss the part about how the links show that a stock 335i vs stock e46 m3 get nearly identical lap times? No modding needed. But ifyou want to drop a couple k..........
Lets also remember that the E46 was the previous generation M3--we'll see how the 335 holds up when the E92 M3 comes out. Maybe it can stay out of limp mode long enough to get around the track? Or will the fuel pump not even allow it to start.
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      07-24-2007, 11:53 AM   #94
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You guys are so fun to get razzled.

I bought a 335i because NA motors at my elevation (4500ft) are weak. I just love hearing the GEEZ it's A "M" argument, NUFF SAID!
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      07-24-2007, 11:56 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335ito135i View Post
You guys are so fun to get razzled.

I bought a 335i because NA motors at my elevation (4500ft) are weak. I just love hearing the GEEZ it's A "M" argument, NUFF SAID!
Similar to the 335 is the greatest car in the world argument?

Touche....:biggrin:
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      07-24-2007, 12:08 PM   #96
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Seems like BMW marketing has completely brain washed some people here. A ///M car is just another car engineered with more performance focus. I guess diamond is really forever and I don't buy anything except from Cartier and Gucci.
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      07-24-2007, 12:17 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert View Post
Seems like BMW marketing has completely brain washed some people here. A ///M car is just another car engineered with more performance focus. I guess diamond is really forever and I don't buy anything except from Cartier and Gucci.
+1

I was about to say M stands for Marketing :biggrin: ... but I don't completely believe it and it wasn't worth the flaming
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      07-24-2007, 12:38 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixon View Post
When it comes to engine weight, how about an all-aluminum version of the S54? The 123d's engine is all-aluminum and designed to handle 300 ft/lb torque at much higher compression ratio's than the S54. The 123d comes in 145 lbs lighter than the 135i. They have the technology.

I don't think anyone has mentioned a lower final drive ratio yet. That could give an M1 much more pep, no matter what engine they used.

A moderately tuned twin turbo from the 135i with just ~350 hp and ~350 ft/lb mated to a lower final drive in a lighter car would also give the kind of performance gap that M-buyers would expect.

How about this:
1) Either more HP/torque tuned into the twin turbo out of the factory, or a lightweight high-reving all-aluminum higher HP/torque version of the S54.
2) LSD
3) Lower final drive ratio
4) Carbon fiber roof (sunroof delete obviously)
5) Suspension upgrade
6) cooling system upgrade if the TT is used
7) vader-style lightweight manual adjust performance seats
8) Lighter body panels and suspension parts, etc to get the weight down
9) Unique paints and interiors only for the M1
10) Unique wheels only for the M1
11) No RFT's
12) More modes for more conrol over the electronic babysitters (DSC, traction, etc)
13) short shifter with better feel
14) Warrantee intact on everything.

I think that would be enough market differentation from the 135i to draw buyers to spend more for the M1. It would at least drive a ton of attention on the web to the 135i and the M1. Think of all the posts about whether the M1 was worth the extra cash, or whether just chipping and upgrading a 135i was a better deal... Like in this thread, way before we even know if a 135i and an M1 will ever be sold at the same time. It would be better for BMW sales than endless posts about whether the Audi S3 or whatever is better than the M1 or 135i.

With all that dreaming aside, I would still rather see a less costly 123d in the next round of 1-series cars instead of an expensive M1. I'm sure that opinion isn't very popular with most of the posters on all the BMW boards. But I would bet there would be more actual buyers in the showroom closing the deal to buy an inexpensive 123d, than the number of board posters who would leave the virtual world long enough to close a deal on an M1 in RL.

Were those fighting words? Heh

<flame-resistant underwear on>
Fighting words? those are great stuff, keep'em coming!!
I really don't think we gonna see a revamped version of the s54, as in its current NA mode the engine is pretty close to maxed out (Not much tunning). The rod failure issue is behind us now, but it still makes me wonder the longevity of the engine after 100k. Alumn. + magniz. could make the engine lighter, but let's take the CSL version for example. Even at 350hp its still only 50hp more than the N54, and we all know the tunning potential of a turbo engine can be oh sooo staggering. So the weight saved, might not be enuff ...

My take on the 135i is that it prob. should not have existed, or at least not in its current state. Its a real surprise to me that bmw did not dumb down the HP in order to ensure 3-er's (335i) superiority. I can't wait to see R&T, C&D's..etc test results. R&T got a 4.8sec out of 335i. With the same engine, at few hundred Ibs less weight, 135i could be in the 4.5-4.6s range (given that every hundred Ibs = 0.1s with everything else being equal). Compared with E92 M3's 4.1 s (Optimistic guess) This car can easily take on a S3 and walk-it.

A 3100Ibs M1 with close to 400hp is tempting (At what price?), but so is the prospect of tunning the heck out of the n54 turbo...
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      07-24-2007, 01:10 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert View Post
Seems like BMW marketing has completely brain washed some people here. A ///M car is just another car engineered with more performance focus. I guess diamond is really forever and I don't buy anything except from Cartier and Gucci.
Bad analogy. The diamond is the same, no matter who sells it. The technology, parts, and design of an M are actually different than those same aspects of a regular BMW.
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      07-24-2007, 02:25 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
The M is a different car--it is as close to a racing inspired track car that you can get out of BMW. The 335 is a great car--but listen to anyone who has had or driven both a lot and they will tell you why the 335 is a great daily driver. It's because it is missing those elements that make an M different--the handling, feel and driving experience is just different.

And the only reason I mentioned anything about mods in my previous post is because you mentioned changing the boost on the 335.

And I would not buy an M3--but only because I could not afford it. Those who say the extra money isn't worth it are NOT the people BMW are going to be marketing that car to. Keep your 335, play with the boost all you want--its a great car. Its just not an ///M.

You are right. My M3 outhandles the 335i that I drove all day long, but IF the 135i comes with an M suspension, well then, now we have a new game!
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      07-24-2007, 02:35 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Lets also remember that the E46 was the previous generation M3--we'll see how the 335 holds up when the E92 M3 comes out. Maybe it can stay out of limp mode long enough to get around the track? Or will the fuel pump not even allow it to start.
Yea, let us not forget that we are comparing a brand new design to one designed in the late 90s, I would kind of expect the 335i to do as well as it does against the E46 m3.

The e90/e92 will absolutely own the 335i on the track; remember it is capable of 8:10-8:15 on the ring.....The 135i will probably do better, close to 8:20 if I had to guess.
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      07-24-2007, 02:36 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joelk View Post
+1

I was about to say M stands for Marketing :biggrin: ... but I don't completely believe it and it wasn't worth the flaming
x2.

I mean M cars are nice, but the line is getting blurred IMO between the regular models and the Ms.
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      07-24-2007, 02:43 PM   #103
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As a former 3er owner, I really wonder why so many other 335i owners have ///M penis envy??? So the 335i can run the PREVIOUS generation M3, now all of a sudden the E46M is a dinosaur and M's are overrated marketing ploy's????? If you guys were even old enough to drive in 2000 when that car came out I'd be shocked. Speakin of which, the guy that drives the Civic, I wonder how the current Civic does against a Civic Si from 7 years ago??? I'd be willing to bet it's not too far off. WTF does that prove??????? Its just evolution, it happens.

When the comparisons were published stating the new G37 is as quick, if not quicker than the 335i through the slalom, EVERYONE yelled at the top of their lungs it will never have the feel of the 335. And they're ABSOLUTELY right!!!! That same gap in terms of feel and soul, an M car will always have over its lesser stable mates. The gap may actually be x10. Sad that you don't get it and likely never will. Why even get the 135, get an A3 2.0T, can tune the hell out of that too.

Anyone that tries to tell me if they had the cash to comfortably afford any current M version and claim they would still choose the ...35 version, I would have to call :bs:.

Dmboone and 1hots2k glad to see there are some real enthusiasts here. :drinking:
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      07-24-2007, 02:47 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus Decimus View Post
As a former 3er owner, I really wonder why so many other 335i owners have ///M penis envy??? So the 335i can run the PREVIOUS generation M3, now all of a sudden the E46M is a dinosaur and M's are overrated marketing ploy's????? If you guys were even old enough to drive in 2000 when that car came out I'd be shocked. Speakin of which, the guy that drives the Civic, I wonder how the current Civic does against a Civic Si from 7 years ago??? I'd be willing to bet it's not too far off. WTF does that prove??????? Its just evolution, it happens.

When the comparisons were published stating the new G37 is as quick, if not quicker than the 335i through the slalom, EVERYONE yelled at the top of their lungs it will never have the feel of the 335. And they're ABSOLUTELY right!!!! That same gap in terms of feel and soul, an M car will always have over its lesser stable mates. The gap may actually be x10. Sad that you don't get it and likely never will. Why even get the 135, get an A3 2.0T, can tune the hell out of that too.

Anyone that tries to tell me if they had the cash to comfortably afford any current M version and claim they would still choose the ...35 version, I would have to call :bs:.

Dmboone and 1hots2k glad to see there are some real enthusiasts here. :drinking:
I could pay cash for a fleet of m3's. And I purchased a 335, cash. Sorry. You can call it what you want. BTW, the number one vehicle driven by millionaires in US is a ford f-150 pickup.
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      07-24-2007, 02:53 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus Decimus View Post
As a former 3er owner, I really wonder why so many other 335i owners have ///M penis envy??? So the 335i can run the PREVIOUS generation M3, now all of a sudden the E46M is a dinosaur and M's are overrated marketing ploy's????? If you guys were even old enough to drive in 2000 when that car came out I'd be shocked. Speakin of which, the guy that drives the Civic, I wonder how the current Civic does against a Civic Si from 7 years ago??? I'd be willing to bet it's not too far off. WTF does that prove??????? Its just evolution, it happens.

When the comparisons were published stating the new G37 is as quick, if not quicker than the 335i through the slalom, EVERYONE yelled at the top of their lungs it will never have the feel of the 335. And they're ABSOLUTELY right!!!! That same gap in terms of feel and soul, an M car will always have over its lesser stable mates. The gap may actually be x10. Sad that you don't get it and likely never will. Why even get the 135, get an A3 2.0T, can tune the hell out of that too.

Anyone that tries to tell me if they had the cash to comfortably afford any current M version and claim they would still choose the ...35 version, I would have to call :bs:.

Dmboone and 1hots2k glad to see there are some real enthusiasts here. :drinking:
I think most of the time when people say they dont like M's, its sour grapes because they cant afford one. Hell even the big porsche guys like M's and they definitely can afford one.

I also think this is the year for the big power import cars. I mean we've got a 414hp M3, 450hp IS-F, New Supra coming, Bigger power RS4s, etc. It seems that all the foreign manufacturers are really taking head to the big old v8s and hemis out here now (not they they are anything special), but they are predominate in the US Well.... because we build them. Not to mention all of those afformentioned cars should be able to take these new muscle cars anyday in the twisties.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If you think your a big shot in your V8 M and I walk up next to you in a lowly 135i and blow your doors off, then what next? Do you bitch that the M is a shit car now? No, I wouldnt, because when its all said and done... its still an 80k car.

But there's always that little feather in my cap, that my 35k car beat an 80k car
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      07-24-2007, 03:10 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335ito135i
Define M?

M: -m- [em]
-adjective
1. An automobile manufactured by BMW can be described as an "M" if it is based on one of the standard body styles of the moniker and is tuned by some of the world's greatest automotive engineers passionately interacting and based off test results from die-hard performance enthusiasts and race-car drivers based on a documented history of excellence, to create a 100% balanced car, focused on the driver, taking into account every facet of the driving experience as a whole. as opposed to garage wrench monkeys who buy stiffer springs and a new exhaust and sit at the drag strip.


-noun
2. The heart and soul of BMW. If you dont get it, you dont get it. Dont buy one. We dont want you to own one. Tune your own crap.
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      07-24-2007, 03:16 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by aesthetect View Post
M: -m- [em]
-adjective
1. An automobile manufactured by BMW can be described as an "M" if it is based on one of the standard body styles of the moniker and is tuned by some of the world's greatest automotive engineers passionately interacting and based off test results from die-hard performance enthusiasts and race-car drivers based on a documented history of excellence, to create a 100% balanced car, focused on the driver, taking into account every facet of the driving experience as a whole. as opposed to garage wrench monkeys who buy stiffer springs and a new exhaust and sit at the drag strip.


-noun
2. The heart and soul of BMW. If you dont get it, you dont get it. Dont buy one. We dont want you to own one. Tune your own crap.

lol did that come off of wiki?
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      07-24-2007, 03:19 PM   #108
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edit: haha no not wiki... from the mind of aes

i have nothing against the 135, in fact i love the thing, but youre just trying to be a pain in the ass. although i probably offended 99% of the people on here.

that being said i made a post earlier in this thread about the M1 and then went home and slept on it.. and overnight fell in love with the idea of an M1. my dream went something EXACTLY like nixons post..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixon View Post
When it comes to engine weight, how about an all-aluminum version of the S54? The 123d's engine is all-aluminum and designed to handle 300 ft/lb torque at much higher compression ratio's than the S54. The 123d comes in 145 lbs lighter than the 135i. They have the technology.

I don't think anyone has mentioned a lower final drive ratio yet. That could give an M1 much more pep, no matter what engine they used.

A moderately tuned twin turbo from the 135i with just ~350 hp and ~350 ft/lb mated to a lower final drive in a lighter car would also give the kind of performance gap that M-buyers would expect.

How about this:
1) Either more HP/torque tuned into the twin turbo out of the factory, or a lightweight high-reving all-aluminum higher HP/torque version of the S54.
2) LSD
3) Lower final drive ratio
4) Carbon fiber roof (sunroof delete obviously)
5) Suspension upgrade
6) cooling system upgrade if the TT is used
7) vader-style lightweight manual adjust performance seats
8) Lighter body panels and suspension parts, etc to get the weight down
9) Unique paints and interiors only for the M1
10) Unique wheels only for the M1
11) No RFT's
12) More modes for more conrol over the electronic babysitters (DSC, traction, etc)
13) short shifter with better feel
14) Warrantee intact on everything.

I think that would be enough market differentation from the 135i to draw buyers to spend more for the M1. It would at least drive a ton of attention on the web to the 135i and the M1. Think of all the posts about whether the M1 was worth the extra cash, or whether just chipping and upgrading a 135i was a better deal... Like in this thread, way before we even know if a 135i and an M1 will ever be sold at the same time. It would be better for BMW sales than endless posts about whether the Audi S3 or whatever is better than the M1 or 135i.

With all that dreaming aside, I would still rather see a less costly 123d in the next round of 1-series cars instead of an expensive M1. I'm sure that opinion isn't very popular with most of the posters on all the BMW boards. But I would bet there would be more actual buyers in the showroom closing the deal to buy an inexpensive 123d, than the number of board posters who would leave the virtual world long enough to close a deal on an M1 in RL.

Were those fighting words? Heh

<flame-resistant underwear on>


With even more emphasis on weight savings. I mean real, raw, M - total weight savings. like screw sound deadening, minimal safety requirements etc etc. if theyre trying to revamp the e30 or the 2002, dont talk about it, be about it. to be honest i dont need that much power, i just want to be able to HAUL ASS through those twisties. and I'm not going to be purchasing until around 2010 to be honest which puts me in a fairly good position considering even if all 3 were available today i wouldnt be able to choose between the 135, the M1 and a 123d. I think it would depend on the gas mileage and cost of the M1 vs 135 and the overall experience i got out of driving the 123d (if it even comes)


yeah its hypocritical to make a lot of those statements and then talk about gas mileage but call me a responsible enthusiast. youre all hypocrits too.

haha oh man i better just leave the forums now

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      07-24-2007, 03:46 PM   #109
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Geez, no one's going to grab on to my e-dick is so big cuz I'm rich comment? Comon guys.
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      07-24-2007, 03:52 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus Decimus View Post
Anyone that tries to tell me if they had the cash to comfortably afford any current M version and claim they would still choose the ...35 version, I would have to call :bs:.

Dmboone and 1hots2k glad to see there are some real enthusiasts here. :drinking:
I had deposit on the E92 M3, but because recent reviews don't show a clear indication that M3 separates itself from rest of the pack anymore so I moved my deposit over to the 135i. As far as how does a 7 years old civic si compares to a 07 civic, I don't know because this is my first civic and I got it because I was out of a car and was waiting for the M3.

Hey if you have money to squander every time BMW puts a M in your face that's fine but not everyone here runs a charity for BMW. I am interested in everyone's opinions because they provide different point of view. They don't have to agree with me but I don't go around running my mouth off calling people's decision bullshit. BMW M cars thus far have been great cars and much desired, but I sure won't buy a M car for the sake of the badge as some of you have indicted you would.

A wise one once said ///M is an M, therefore BMW can just take off the I and slap on a factory M badge and some of you will buy into that. That's the view you are supporting. The argument here is not whether M is a great car it is rather would some of you buy anything with a M on it. If you don't you aren't a real enthusiast.
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