New Post - Coupe versus Sedan - Some BMW History

[Lester]

We have been having some fun with this topic for the past month or so, I have copied this from the Frozen Window thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lib
If you're going to argue coupe vs sedan based on the existence of a window frame then I have two questions:

When was the term "coupe" first used to describe a style of car?
When did the first car door with no window frame appear?

If the term appeared at the same time you can argue it's a requirement of a coupe.
If the term appeared before they started making frameless doors then it would be difficult to claim that the term refers to the style of door.
If the term appeared after frameless doors... well, take your pick

Sigh.... This one won't quit. But it has been a fun ride. First of all, "a rose is still a rose by any other name". By that - I mean to imply that terminology regarding automobile styling is somewhat subjective, and the word Coupe meant different things over the years. That I will concede.

In the 19th century a coupé was a closed four-wheel horse-drawn carriage, cut (coupé) to eliminate the forward, rear-facing passenger seats, with a single seat inside for two persons behind the driver, who sat on a box outside. Commonly, a coupé had a fixed glass window in the front of the body, protected from road dirt by a high curving dashboard. A landau is a coupé with a folding top.

Through the 1950s opening-roof convertible automobiles were sometimes called convertible coupés, but since the 1960s the term coupé has generally been applied exclusively to fixed-roof models. Coupés generally, but not necessarily, have two doors, although automobile makers have offered four-door coupés and three- and five-door hatchback coupés, as well. Modern coupés often have the styling feature of frameless doors, with the window glass sealing directly against a weather-strip on the main body.

The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) distinguishes a coupé from a sedan primarily by interior volume; SAE standard J1100 defines a coupé as a fixed-roof automobile with less than 33 cubic feet (0.93 cubic meters) of rear interior volume. A car with a greater interior volume is technically a two-door sedan, not a coupé, even if it has only two doors. By this standard, the Chevrolet Monte Carlo, Ferrari 612 Scaglietti, and Mercedes-Benz CL-Class coupés are all two-door sedans. Only a few sources, however (including the magazine Car and Driver), use the two-door sedan label in this manner. Some car manufacturers may nonetheless choose to use the word coupé (or coupe) to describe such a model, e.g., the Cadillac Coupe de Ville.

Alternatively, a coupé is distinguished from a two-door sedan by the lack of a "B" pillar to support the roof. Sedans have an "A" pillar forward at the windscreen, a "B" pillar aft of the door, and a "C" pillar defining the aftermost roof support at the rear window. Thus with all side-windows down, a coupé would appear windowless from the "A" to the "C" pillars. These fixed-roof models are described as a hardtop. Targa top models are a variation on the convertible design.

If we look at the above definitions (from Wikepedia), and look historically at BMW, and what they called various flavors of their cars - we note the following:

The first car ever designated as a Coupe sold by BMW was in 1939 - it was a 327. In 1940 a revised version named the 328 was very successful as a race car and won may races due to its' aerodynamic shape. Note - the early Coupe's did have two doors, and window frames in the doors.

1939 327 Coupe

1949 400 Coupe

By 1954 - the 502 coupe did not have a frame around the window. So I think the answer to one of your questions is - in the BMW world, a coupe was first sold in 1954 that had no door frames around the windows (and no 'B' pillar).This car is very pleasing to the eye. I wish I had one.

1954 502 Coupe

In 1960 there was a 700 Coupe, with a short rear seat compartment and they went back to a visible 'B' Pillar.

1960 700 Coupe

In 1965 and 1966 BMW introduced a new coupe body package in the 1800 and 2000C and CS models. These had no window frames and no ‘B’ Pillar.

1966 BMW 2000 CS Coupe

By the late 60's - the 2000CS and 2800CS defined the Coupe style for BMW and I would think the rest of the auto industry. These cars had no 'B' pillar and frameless windows.

1970 BMW 2800 CS Coupe

1974 BMW CSL 3.0 Coupe

In the 70's first of the 3 series (E21's) 1976 - 1983 were only marketed and considered as two door Saloons (Europe) or Sedans (North America). They were never called Coupes. There also was never an E30 3 Series Coupe – they were called two or four door Sedans.

BMW E21 Saloon (Sedan)- (’76-’83)

BMW E30 Series Saloon (Sedan) (’83-’91)

The first 3 Series Coupe was released in the summer of 1992 – it was the E36 and included the M3 Coupe. So remarkable was this new body style, that BMW Board Member Robert Buchelhofer said during the European release in Spain in 1992:

“Just think of the 02 series and the two 3 series in years gone by. These were genuine two door saloons (sedans) in every respect, the predecessor to the new 3 series coming with two and for the first time, four doors. And they all had something coupe-like about them. Not to mention that BMW actually ‘invented’ this kind of car in the first place.”

1993 M3 Coupe (E36)

With a lower and shorter roof, and more steeply raked windshield, the coupe became sleeker and more popular than the sedan. The first 3 series coupe sold in the US was the 1993 325is, premiering at the January 1992 Detroit International Auto Show.

1994 E36 325is Coupe

Of Course, after the E36 Series, the Coupe always has had a strong following, and were easily identified as such both in Style and Marketing documentation.

Conclusion:
I think it is safe to say – that as far as BMW automobiles are concerned; a Coupe is now defined as a two door, with a raked windshield and sloping rear window, a short trunk lid, no frame around the door windows and a disguised ‘B’ pillar. As in the 1-series coupe, the ‘B’ pillar is hidden behind the rear window tint, so as to give the styling effect that no ‘B’ pillar exists.

1 Series Coupe – note the rear side window has an extra wide black tint along the front edge to hide/disguise the ‘B’ pillar.

I hope we can put this one to bed now.

References:

“The Original” – The BMW 3 Series: Concept, Technology, Design. Hans-Herman Braess [BMW Group Mobile Tradition 2001]

“The Ultimate History of BMW” – Andrew Noakes [Parragon Publishing 2005]

“BMW 3 Series” – Jeremy Walton [Bentley Publishers 2001]

[sunking420]

One of the best threads I've seen on this site. I love the pictures. The 700 has some air induction system, haha....Great to have a historian among the group...Thanks.....

[BSME46]

Great post... did a research paper awhile back covering everything BMW from pre WWII up to current. Cool stuff.

[jbenington86]

Ah ok this is as far as BMWs are concerened not the entire automotive industry as a whole...my first car was a coupe but had the complete frame around the window and my brothers first car was as well.. so bmw could put the complete frame around the window and still call it a coupe but thats not the way BMW defines a coupe.. so really that whole disscusion was a waste of time because any automotive company can change there defention of coupe or sedan

[lib]

Nice history. Always interesting

This is what prompted my question in the other thread (I only saw the thread after it was bumped):

Originally Posted by Lester

Then it would be called a sedan instead of a coupe.

I was fairly certain the term coupe was much older than the existance of car doors without a window frame. Apparently it is.

Originally Posted by Lester

Conclusion:
I think it is safe to say – that as far as BMW automobiles are concerned; a Coupe is now defined as a two door, with a raked windshield and sloping rear window, a short trunk lid, no frame around the door windows and a disguised ‘B’ pillar. As in the 1-series coupe, the ‘B’ pillar is hidden behind the rear window tint, so as to give the styling effect that no ‘B’ pillar exists.

I mean this in the nicest possible way:
I think you're trying to be far too specific with the term and the cars you've posted don't support your conclusion. Some of the BMW coupes you posted have a window frame, some do not. Some have a 'B' pillar, some do not. Some have a short trunk lid, some do not.

Given the evidence you've provided I would make one of two conclusions; either the term is much more general and the existence of b-pillars and window frames is not a defining factor or the term changes over time to fit the technology and designs of the moment.

[Lester]

Originally Posted by lib

Nice history. Always interesting

This is what prompted my question in the other thread (I only saw the thread after it was bumped):I was fairly certain the term coupe was much older than the existance of car doors without a window frame. Apparently it is.


I mean this in the nicest possible way:
I think you're trying to be far too specific with the term and the cars you've posted don't support your conclusion. Some of the BMW coupes you posted have a window frame, some do not. Some have a 'B' pillar, some do not. Some have a short trunk lid, some do not.

Given the evidence you've provided I would make one of two conclusions; either the term is much more general and the existence of b-pillars and window frames is not a defining factor or the term changes over time to fit the technology and designs of the moment.

Thank you. Taken back to its original contact of the Frozen Window theme - the question was from "jbenington86 ... I still dont see why bmw hasn’t put the door frame all the way around the window.."

My answer was: "Then it would be called a sedan instead of a coupe."

BMW has not made a model they called a "Coupe" with a window door frame since the early 1960's model 700. That is a period of 48 years.

Every coupe that they have produced since then (and a couple of models earlier than that) had no window frame, and some had no 'B' pillar.

The first two 3 series (E21 and E30), and the earlier '02' series were two doors with window frames, were called Saloons - (Sedans) - both the two and four door models, from 1976 – to 1991. BMW referred to the two models as 'Coupe like'

Since BMW released the 325is in Jan 1992, all BMW coupes have had an easily identifiable shape and common design theme, with a sloping windshield, lower roofline, short trunk and no door window frames, along with a camouflaged 'B' pillar.

So – back to "jbenington86
... I still don't see why bmw hasn’t put the door frame all the way around the window.."

My new revised answer would be: "If it were from BMW, then it would most likely be called a 'sedan' instead of a 'coupe'. BMW has not produced a two door model that they referred to as a 'coupe' that had a door frame around the window for 48 years"

:smile:

[ptack]

Is that 400 real or a model? It looks like a toy.

[MikeVictor]

I love that 1939 327, it's a beaut looking automobile.

[Lester]

I love the '54 - 502 - what a classic! Imagine that with an N54 in Sedonna?

[Tom K.]

Originally Posted by ptack

Is that 400 real or a model? It looks like a toy.

Great pics! I've never heard of this 400 model - any more info?
Also IIRC, the first closed USA cars to eliminate the B pillars were the "hardtop convertibles" (later called just "hardtops") that GM introduced in 1949.

Tom

[atr_hugo]

Bristol 400 perhaps?

[Lester]

Originally Posted by Tom K.

Great pics! I've never heard of this 400 model - any more info?
Tom

Tom, thaks for picking that up - the 400 was actually a car based on BMW parts that was produced by Bristol Motor Works in England. I didn't explain that in the original.

[Tom K.]

I thought it looked like the Bristol. Thanks for the informative post, Lester.

Tom

[pit1]

Great post, thanks for the detailed info...

I can certainly see some trends, at least within BMW, but just to play devil's advocate. Outside of SAE, is it possible that the use of the term is based only loosely on design requirements, but weighs more heavily on successful marketing? We can't deny the flexibility of naming conventions in the automotive industry. Once a car "type" is considered less desirable (i.e. SUV) car makers create a new segment (i.e. SAV, crossover, etc) by renaming the cars previously referred to as SUVs.

Sure, there are form/function requirements of an SUV vs SAV vs Crossover...but consumer desires drive not just car design but the sub-branding strategies of each manufacturer.

[Lester]

Originally Posted by pit1

Great post, thanks for the detailed info...

I can certainly see some trends, at least within BMW, but just to play devil's advocate. Outside of SAE, is it possible that the use of the term is based only loosely on design requirements, but weighs more heavily on successful marketing? We can't deny the flexibility of naming conventions in the automotive industry. Once a car "type" is considered less desirable (i.e. SUV) car makers create a new segment (i.e. SAV, crossover, etc) by renaming the cars previously referred to as SUVs.

Sure, there are form/function requirements of an SUV vs SAV vs Crossover...but consumer desires drive not just car design but the sub-branding strategies of each manufacturer.

To be sure - Marketing can call a car whatever they want. A Coupe is targeting the 'young and restless' while a Sedan brings to mind 'Family Car'. There are no NHTSA standards to be violated.

It has been interesting over the past month, viewing people's reactions and various opinions on the 'Frozen Window' post to the Sedan vs Coupe sub-thread.

[ORIGIN M.]

A wealth of info. Thanks!

[m7ammed]

we had a 4 door Nissan Gloria which had frameless doors , that doesn't make it a coupe. I think the general idea is that a coupe is usually a car with 2 doors

[Lester]

Originally Posted by adood84

we had a 4 door Nissan Gloria which had frameless doors , that doesn't make it a coupe. I think the general idea is that a coupe is usually a car with 2 doors

That is right, it is more like a 4-door hardtop. Nice looking car, too. On the flip side, a 2-door car is not always automatically a Coupe. Check my signature photo. The E21 was classsified by BMW and registered as a 2-dr sedan.

[m7ammed]

Originally Posted by Lester

a 2-door car is not always automatically a Coupe.

Thats why I said usually :smile:

[stovesax08]

The reason why they don't have window frames is because they would then have to design the doors differently for the convertible. Coupes usually, or as this thread is leaning always, have frameless windows because the manufacturer also makes a convertible model of their two door cars. Before this thread I have never heard of any dispute that a two door car is a coupe. The magazines and the television shows refer to something with two doors as a coupe. While this may not be the 'technically' correct definition, it is the one that is in common use.