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      02-19-2009, 12:36 PM   #67
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      02-19-2009, 01:09 PM   #68
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      02-19-2009, 03:29 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fourtailpipes View Post
i need to get back into another formula car! i miss clutchless up and down with the ford. only used the clutch for standing starts or cooldown laps.
Oh wow, what did you drive? Formula Ford? Did you race...? I really wish I could do more formula car stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R32 View Post
this is the only time i have needed to double clutch as well, since the car will often keep you out of the lower gear if the rev difference is too high. of course, not all tracks will have a turn that requires a shift that skips a gear.

i have had two different sets of advice about very long braking zone into a hairpin, say 4th to 2nd gear. if you do a single downshift, you probably have to double clutch, and if you screw it up, you are more likely to make it a money shift. if you downshift into 3rd and then into 2nd, even the most skilled driver will find it hard to threshold brake and pull both shifts off smoothly and not upset the car.

for myself, i have found it a little more fun and less stressful to shift twice, but i'd love to hear your opinion about this.
About the long braking zone into a slow corner... I disagree, I think a skilled driver can downshift through each gear while threshold braking just fine. They do it all the time:
- just one example. Of course, when looking at on-board data, the affects of downshifting on pedal pressure does show up; but with a really good driver, it's minimal and not an issue. In a street car, a braking zone like what you described lasts a really long time; plenty of time to blip through each gear.

Personally, whether or not I skip gears depends on the car. Whenever I'm driving a car for the first time, I always go down through each gear, just to get familiarized with the gear ratio spreads. It can be a timing thing... sometimes it's easier in your mind to blip into each gear so that you keep track of exactly where the revs are.

Another thing to add about skipping gears: It requires a bigger blip, which means you have to roll your foot over more, which means more of an upset on brake pedal pressure. It's a tough call, for sure.
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      02-19-2009, 03:53 PM   #70
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I drove the skip barber formula dodge when I attended their 3 day racing school. That car was so much fun. it felt really balanced. It really helped me understand that when I do X, the car responds by doing Y.

The only part that was hard was we needed to do double-clutch downshifting. It was hard. It took me a while to get it and even after I did get it enough to not let it be an obstacle in my learning, I found myself double-blipping as well... Hilarious.
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      02-19-2009, 05:03 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J Tyler View Post
Oh wow, what did you drive? Formula Ford? Did you race...? I really wish I could do more formula car stuff.
to start open wheel racing, I had driven a formula ford and was becoming acclimated with it late last year when my teammate/co-owner-to-be dropped out. I'm saving up to buy the same car solo this year. <fingers crossed>

Last edited by fourtailpipes; 02-19-2009 at 05:24 PM..
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      02-19-2009, 07:44 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J Tyler View Post
About the long braking zone into a slow corner... I disagree, I think a skilled driver can downshift through each gear while threshold braking just fine. They do it all the time:
- just one example. Of course, when looking at on-board data, the affects of downshifting on pedal pressure does show up; but with a really good driver, it's minimal and not an issue. In a street car, a braking zone like what you described lasts a really long time; plenty of time to blip through each gear.
thanks!

that dude in the video is a freaking machine. i've only been to road atlanta once, and it is quite a butt-puckerer of a track.
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      02-19-2009, 08:04 PM   #73
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Good stuff in this thread, honestly.

The video of Boris Said is hilarious.
I've always thought it was funny how as soon as you put one road course in a nascar season all the top dogs run like crap and Boris destroys them all (although there are a couple of the good ol boys who can actually drive a road course).
It's hilarious how the announcer is like "look at that crazy crap hes doing with his feet" [pp.] as if heel-toe downshifting is some crazy new fangled driving technique.

The video of the GT3 is sick, and theres another video of a race prepared porsche somewhere on the internets where the driver is shifting at least twice as fast. So fast you would think its sequential but its a gated stick. But that guy is damn fast too =P

Awesome pic by fourtailpipes.
That shows exactly what I was talking about when I say that us big-footed americans are more ball-toeing than heel-toeing =P

As for double clutching, I've never bothered.
AFAIK one clutch in and out for each gear balances the driveline.

To Mugen: If you really are a PhD in CS then big grats, man.
I had to switch from CompSci to EE cuz staring at thousands of lines of code whos only function was to trim a mega corporations bottom line by .2 cents per hour (money which never sees my pocket) 8 hours a day chasing link errors wondering if its worth it to spend three times as long writing it in a lower level just to avoid IDE BS made me want to hang myself. And my profs. Who were mostly pretty cool people, so that would make me a big jerk.
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      02-19-2009, 08:09 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J Tyler View Post
Another thing to add about skipping gears: It requires a bigger blip, which means you have to roll your foot over more, which means more of an upset on brake pedal pressure. It's a tough call, for sure.
Unless you wait to do the downshift/skip gears until the end of the braking zone, where you would need less of a blip to go from low RPM -> rev match the desired gear

But in general, most people start grabbing gears immediately after they start braking, so yes, skipping gears usually require bigger blips.
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      02-24-2009, 11:05 AM   #75
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A few observations --

We teach shifting at the end of the braking zone. At the begining of the braking zone a mistake is very costly!!
Heel-Toe is a requirement for progression into our advanced groups.

I liked the chart showing the comparison of the granny shift technique and the heel-toe later braking technique.

One thing I did not see mentioned before was that we are trying to also reduce transition time. Your job as a driver is to manage your contact patches. Don't give up what you have gained by coasting. If you come off the brake to shift after you have completed your braking, you have also allowed a significant portion of your weight to shift away from the front wheels. We want a student to initiate turn-in while weight is still forward. Coasting between braking and turning is not the way to fast laps or fast times.

An extension to the Granny technique position. -- If you are going to brake-coast-shift-turn, you should consider the speed you entered the braking zone and consider that you have just given up that much distance. Enter braking zone at 120-145 (Mid Ohio, Summit Point, VIR, Watkins Glen) and you can brake at least a second later, you have gained at least 180 feet over the coast technique.

* Heel-toe made easy -- Easy to practice getting the feel for heel-toe in your car on the street. Start out in a parking lot that has an incline and hold the car with the clutch in and your foot on the brake -- then determine how you can best blip the throttle. I know our cars provide some cheat mode, but you can still pretend you are holding it on the hill with the brake. After you have figured out what works best for you, try starting out and rolling your foot from the brake to the accelerator. Once you have practiced this and have achieved some degree of proficiency, practice it when downshifting when driving at normal public highway speeds.

Please don't try this the first time on your out lap.

And while we are there --

We have room in all run groups for our annual three-day event at Mid Ohio, May 8-10. if you are interested in participating, please send me an email dechair@pcapotomac.org. I have taken my 135I out to the track a few times and have never seen another one at the track.
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      02-24-2009, 02:22 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alow View Post
I drove the skip barber formula dodge when I attended their 3 day racing school. That car was so much fun. it felt really balanced. It really helped me understand that when I do X, the car responds by doing Y.

The only part that was hard was we needed to do double-clutch downshifting. It was hard. It took me a while to get it and even after I did get it enough to not let it be an obstacle in my learning, I found myself double-blipping as well... Hilarious.
I had the same experience at the three day school. I went into the first day thinking I was gonna be real good. I quickly changed my opinion and thought I really sucked. By the end of the third day I was on rails and nobody could touch me. So much to learn there. I did pre-register for the advanced school with the seq. trans. cars. That will be fun.
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      02-24-2009, 03:43 PM   #77
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Quote:
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I did pre-register for the advanced school with the seq. trans. cars. That will be fun.
Nice! Those are a lot of fun. And usually in better shape than the school cars.

If you have small feet, you can squeeze your left foot under the steering column and left-foot brake
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      02-24-2009, 09:20 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach View Post
I had the same experience at the three day school. I went into the first day thinking I was gonna be real good. I quickly changed my opinion and thought I really sucked. By the end of the third day I was on rails and nobody could touch me. So much to learn there. I did pre-register for the advanced school with the seq. trans. cars. That will be fun.
I need to sign up for that one too!
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      02-25-2009, 08:26 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fourtailpipes View Post
i disagree... heel-toe is more than possible on the street, and although it is different (in magnitude) from what you do on the track, the mechanics are the same. suggesting that people learn heel-toe at the track is a concept that terrifies me. that's like saying that firing a gun in combat is different from on a range, so lets just have our soldiers learn to shoot in the field!

i don't want to be anywhere near someone first trying to operate 3 pedals with 2 feet at speed on a racetrack.
i hear what you are saying, but the analogy is more like practicing shooting on a city sidewalk vs. an enclosed firing range.

the whole point of heel-toeing is so that you are in gear, revs in the fat part of the torque curve, and foot on the gas by the apex. this requires an absolute certainty that one will not have to stop at the turn, which doesn't really apply to regular roads.
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      02-25-2009, 08:55 AM   #80
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You can still stop at a turn if you Heel-Toe. Your foot is on the brake and all. Plus you don't need to downshift at the same time you would on the track. And ofcourse you won't be braking for all you are worth.

But you can train the coordination required to do it.
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      02-25-2009, 11:29 AM   #81
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The first step in learning how to heel-toe is figuring out if you are going to roll or pivot your foot and you should figure that out in your garage, driveway, a parking lot, etc. Then you can get a good feel for it while driving by putting the clutch in and practice blipping the throttle while slowing -- no need to shift at this point.

Guildenstern, our Mid Ohio event is a little more then two months away. Lots of track time, space in all groups, cheap price, and it is right in your back yard.
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      02-25-2009, 12:33 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R32 View Post
i hear what you are saying, but the analogy is more like practicing shooting on a city sidewalk vs. an enclosed firing range.

the whole point of heel-toeing is so that you are in gear, revs in the fat part of the torque curve, and foot on the gas by the apex. this requires an absolute certainty that one will not have to stop at the turn, which doesn't really apply to regular roads.
: your logic eludes me, but i assure you, it's critical that you learn heel-toe on your own prior to trying it on a racetrack. obviously dont try it in Times Square at 6pm on a Wednesday.

i've been heel-toe downshifting regularly during my daily commute for the better part of a decade (i'm sure there are others here who have been doing so 5 times as long as me), and have yet to experience the phenomenon you're describing. i can even heel-toe smoothly from 2nd to 1st under ~10mph (as, i'm sure, most experienced heel-toe-ers can), so i don't see any truth in your statement about being in the "fat part of the torque curve".

heel-toe allows you to be using the brake while shifting... if you're NOT using heel-toe (rather you're rev-matching your downshift or executing a "granny clutch drag"), how are you better prepared to make this unexpected stop you speak of?

simply put... "what?"

Last edited by fourtailpipes; 02-25-2009 at 12:59 PM..
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      02-25-2009, 05:37 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fourtailpipes View Post
simply put... "what?"
i don't want to distract from the info in this thread...

i have always driven a stick, and have brought heel-toeing into my skill set about three years ago. when i practiced doing this around town, it was not difficult at all-- the pedal travel while braking in daily driving is shallow enough that blipping was very easy- just a lateral pressure on the foot to tag the gas a little.

on track, where the brake pedal travels deeper than the level of the gas pedal while braking, this didn't work-- i couldn't "reach" back to the gas with the lateral foot, and was frustrated until i learned to move the right leg significantly toward the left. this allows for me to straddle both pedals with the right foot, but be able to brake deeply without hitting the gas until i rotate the right leg to the right again.

these sorts of things are second nature to the experienced driver. my comments are directed toward people who are learning to do this newly, as someone who learned it not so long ago. i personally didn't find that the "casual" heel-toeing around town really helped me do it on the track. in fact, i think that the casual practice misled me a little as to what would be necessary at track speeds.

as for learning track techniques on regular roads, what i am saying is that no one should try to replicate a track-like brake/shift/turn at anything near track speed or intensity while on a public road.

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      02-25-2009, 06:37 PM   #84
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I find it WAY more difficult to heel-toe on the street because of the fact that you are not nearly as deep into the brake pedal.
Having said that, I still do it anytime Im driving "spiritedly" on the street (just did a bunch of that during my lunch break today at work =P ).
I actually find myself going hotter into the turn than I would really like to (for safety's sake) just so that I can better pull off a heel-toe.

Honestly, what it really comes down to: I wish I was born in Japan =P
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      02-25-2009, 08:55 PM   #85
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ahh you guys must be doing the clasic Heel-toe. Im to fat and leggy to actualy gert my heel out farther to the right then my leg in the car. I have to use the side roll method which isn't as brake pressure dependant with my big feet.

White911 who's this we doing the event? And why dont you put your event in the Midwest regional section for more people to see. I'd like more info on the event.
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      02-25-2009, 09:52 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guildenstern View Post
White911 who's this we doing the event? And why dont you put your event in the Midwest regional section for more people to see. I'd like more info on the event.
I generally post our, PCA Potomac Region, events in several places. These are great sites for finding events in your local area.
http://www.mytrackschedule.com/Schedule.asp
http://thetrackschedule.com/indexmain.php
http://www.lateapex.org/schedule.php

I also posted on another site that I think was Midwest specific.

The event is an HPDE at Mid Ohio, May 8-10, three days all groups. Students $360/Instructors $225. The event is open to all marques. If you are interested in the event, email me at DEChair@pcapotomac.org for registration information.

Practice your heel and toe using the whatever method works for you. It seems that BMWs are perfectly made for Heel-toe. Stock pedals either roll the ball of the foot from the brake to the accelerator, or pivot the heel to the accelerator.
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      02-25-2009, 11:42 PM   #87
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Mugennosora, this post is for you. Of course you can lock up the rears in this car! Or any car if there is compression lock up! When I wasn't used to the pedals on this car, I didn't realised that I wasn't heel and toeing properly and I was getting the odd compression lock up. Watching replays of the videos it was plain to see. But once I moved my foot "further up" it was all fine. Anyway, I have lock up the rears once on the 135i due to not heel and toeing. You asked J Tyler to show you someone who has done it, well, here I am. I even have a video somewhere if you really insist on your line of rediculous arguments...
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      04-17-2009, 03:43 PM   #88
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^ i dont think there is any need to revisit that.

having only taught myself on the street everyday, no track experience (so take that for what it is), what seems to upset the car balance the most is the engine braking that results from letting out the clutch while maintaining constant brake pressure.. ? i guess this could be because of the street conditions of relatively low amount of brake pressure versus high rpm @ no throttle = lots of engine braking (especially w gears as short as mine are)?

theres no reason you cant practice everyday though, even just downshifting through the gears as you come up to a stop sign. if what i said above is correct it'd be even more difficult to do smoothly and therefore very beneficial. regardless i see developing the habit as a good thing. once im not a broke ass grad student we'll find out what happens at the track.
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