iCarbon Quality Issues?

[HondaGoneRogue]

I thought I would start a thread to highlight what seems to be a trend in the new iCarbon Carbon Fiber Diffusers, Trunks, and Hoods.

There seems to be an issue with a milky haze under the clear coat that gets progressively worse over time. Here are some pics illustrating the defects. I was very close to purchasing some of these parts now that they are finally available but I feel we need to address this issue in its own thread.

Anyone who's pics I used that wants them removed let me know.








These aren't the only pieces that are defective. If anyone has any other instances I am sure the community would like to hear. If nothing else at least people will be warned to be cautious of ordering until this gets resolved.

I have heard many great stories of iCarbon replacing items when a customer is unhappy so I am sure this will get cleared up. I personally would like be assured if I order these pieces I will get good parts from the beginning.

[jeremydgreat]

Mine hood looks like it might have been damaged in shipping. However, the mark feels pretty smooth to the touch. The hood was packaged vert well and the bubble wrap around this area didn't have any gashes in it.

I'm not familiar with the carbon fiber process, but it looks to my untrained eye, like someone touched it or bumped it while the resin was drying.

Apologies for my nighttime photo here:

EDIT: REMOVING IMAGES. SEE POST #20 IN THIS THREAD

I'm planning on painting my hood, so my hope is that with primer, paint, and some clear coat it will smooth out fine.

The alternative would be shipping it back and waiting for another hood. No thank you, I'll live.

NOTE: Aside from this flaw, the hood looks flawless.

[HondaGoneRogue]

iCarbon has been sent a PM and email with a link to this post. I really want to get this resolved. I've been dying along with the rest of the community to get my hands on these pieces. I thought once the pics started flowing in that the wait was finally over.

[m 135]

My diffuser

[Sylon]

Looks like the resin is separating from the CF.

[tylerh269]

It only cost a little more to go first class, should've budged on getting bmw CF

[HondaGoneRogue]

Originally Posted by tylerh269

It only cost a little more to go first class, should've budged on getting bmw CF

What an intelligent post! I didn't know BMW made CF hoods and trunks. And their diffuser is almost double.

Now go play.......

[BSM 135i]

Damn I gotta check my trunk when I get home, luckily I haven't installed it or painted it yet!

EDIT: also has anyone washed their car or gone through rain and checked if the trunks are leaking??

[HondaGoneRogue]

Yeah let us know! Thanks!

[1speedbike]

Damn.. this sucks.. especially after that long ass wait they put you guys through...

[onefastman]

Originally Posted by BSM 135i

Damn I gotta check my trunk when I get home, luckily I haven't installed it or painted it yet!

EDIT: also has anyone washed their car or gone through rain and checked if the trunks are leaking??

Yes I washed my car the day after I put it on and zero issues with leaking. It fits like a glove and I cant believe how easy it was to put on. Mario made me think it would be a big PITA but in fact it was super easy with an extra set of hands.

Also I have not had mine in the weather and it is stored at 45-50F now.


Guys, what is the weather like where you are at and has it come into contact with road salt?

[HondaGoneRogue]

At least one of the pieces was found flawed out of the box. And if it is weather influenced, it would be terrible since some people wouldn't notice a defect until cold weather comes (which could be months after a purchase). And with no warranty (Warranty Disclaimer
This site and the materials and products on this site are provided "as is" and without warranties of any kind, whether express or implied. To the fullest extent permissible pursuant to applicable law, iCarbon Design Corp disclaims all warranties, express or implied, including, but not limited to, implied warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose and non-infringement.) it makes it even more of a risk considering there would be no legal recourse (if things went south).

[HondaGoneRogue]

I'm not too keen on warranty laws. I think they vary state to state. I usually look for some kind of return policy on the website of a vendor but iCarbons is not to clear.

[mineo77]

Originally Posted by maxnix

I don't think they can waive all warranties against defects in materials or workmanship.

I would not think they would do anything like that.

[esses]

Air pockets/bubbles are very common for aftermarket CF. The equipment needed to do the resin bonding at OEM quality is prohibitively expensive. That's why most race shops will paint their carbon after install. Sure OEM is expensive, but BMW has an R&D budget with 9 digits, not 5.

A legal discussion might be interesting, but it would cost more to pursue than the part is worth - even if you qualified for treble damages. Your best bet is doing exactly what you are doing. Information in the hands of consumers = power.

[HondaGoneRogue]

Given the past positive actions and reviews of iCarbon (first ver. spoilers) I dont think it will come down to legal or warranty terms. My concern was if the defects show up months later.

[iCARBON DESIGN]

Guys,

This thread has gotten WAY out of line, and is to the point of defaming and slandering our company, without ANY personal experience considering this person IS NOT a customer. Furthermore, he bases his entire argument on the few pieces that he can squander up online, and has NO knowledge of how many pieces we sell, in comparison to how many come back due to warranty problems.

First of all, if any customers have any issues, please contact us DIRECTLY.

The pieces shown in this thread *appear* to be iCarbon pieces, although we have only been contacted by one person who has experienced an issue, and that was earlier this morning, and he is being taken care of.

In regards to picking apart our warranty disclaimer, that is legal jargon that we're forced to write to keep some liability off of our shoulders. However, as anyone who is an ACTUAL iCarbon customer knows, we honor ALL warranty claims, and as anyone who is an actual iCarbon customer knows, we go well beyond our line of duty in order to replace and help any customers who experience issues with their parts, EVEN when it is their fault or the shipping companies fault. We have sent countless free replacement pieces to customers in many instances where the shipping company damaged the piece. We were never reimbursed for these claims, we just took care of it out of pocket.

When you say there have been issues with “many” of our customers, that concerns me a little bit, considering the fact that a couple, one or two, customers have had “issues” (which are very minor), when we’ve produced and shipped close to 100 of these piece. Happy customers rarely show their appreciation, and 1 unhappy customer definitely will. So, we cannot deem the products faulty, or as having issues, when in reality a VERY small percentage of people have experienced “issues”.

Something like a spot of hazy clear coat, although definitely an issue, is not something to be overly concerned about. This could have happened during wet-sanding (after clearcoating) where the person doing this went too aggressively, or perhaps they didn’t buff the area enough, etc. It shows a small gap in our QC system, which I will definitely bring up, but is easily fixed. $30-$40 at your local body shop (if the customer isn’t handy with a polisher) and you’re all set. Obviously we’d be more than happy to take care of the bill for the customer.

We’ve sold over 300 diffusers internationally, and had less than 4 returned for quality issues. Out of all of the trunk spoilers we’ve sold, not a SINGLE one has been returned due to quality issues. Actually, we took a generic trunk spoiler, and OEM BMW performance one, and ours to a local meet, and had customer pick the best looking and fitting one from the bunch. Ours won in over 20 blind tests – I think that speaks a bit about our quality in itself. We’ve had countless customers and shops rave about how great the carbon is in comparison to the other things on the market that they’ve had PERSONAL experiences too, and that is something we hold pretty dear to us – feedback from shops who install hundreds of these types of parts per year.

NOTHING is up with our quality – it’s as great as it’s ever been. When you have one of the most reputable shops in Tokyo, who sells your product along with some of the top brands in the world, who build GT3 Cup Cars, and tells you that your quality is better than anything they’ve seen, I think your on the right track. When BMWNA inquires about your product and is interested in what kinds of methods you use for construction, I also think you’re on the right track. When your production facility is contacted by some of the top aftermarket brands in the world, with interest to private label for them, you’ve got to be doing something right.

As vendors and manufactures, we have the right to experience quality issues - no one is 100% perfect. BMW's HPFP pumps fail ALL the time. Does that mean BMW sucks? No. They fix it and life goes on. If we have a problem with one of our pieces, we'll fix it, given the chance to of course.

So, before you deem our products as having issues and raise cause for concern among hundreds of people, please do yourself the favor and give us a chance to satisfy you and impress you with the quality of our pieces, when you are holding one in your hands in comparison to other things out there. If you have a problem with the quality, and we can’t do anything to satisfy you, then please feel free to share your story with others about how YOU were unsatisfied.

If you try contacting any of the “other” carbon fiber manufactures out there with issues, they’ll tell you you’re wrong and send you on your merry way. I think one of the issues is that many people, specifically on htis board, have not had to deal with that. We’re one of the ONLY manufactures who actually patrols the boards, puts our input, and tries to help – something vendors usually handle, if that. So, by making ourselves so accessible, people have grown accustomed to it. If you send us an email, be assured we’ll reply. If you pick up a telephone and call us with an issue, we’ll make sure to reply. If you post on some thread that we have no idea exists, or that we can’t really frequent, there is just no way to us to help you. Please, just make an attempt at regular contact, or it is impossible for us to know that you are having problems. Before going crazy and posting on the boards, please give us a chance to do our jobs and make your reservations or issues right.

I appreciate your cause for concern, and hope you have a blessed day. If you have any further questions, we’d be happy to talk on the phone.

Mario Garcia - Owner

[Mr. Clarkson]

iCarbon is a stand up company, I have no doubts that they'd assist anyone with any of the problems alleged in this thread. I'm not sure I see the point of making this thread unless you contacted iCarbon and they refused to correct the issue to your satisfaction. They've worked with me on things above and beyond what they had to do, and I assume they'd do the same for anyone else.

[jeremydgreat]

1) HondaGoneRogue - I agree with Mario that this thread got out of hand - dissecting the warranties and talking about legal action less than a week after receiving the pieces? Geez.

2) Mario - customers have every right to post pictures of your products (defects and all), just like they have every right to post about HPFP issues. It feels like you're trying to intimidate us by using the phrases "defaming and slandering our company". Welcome to the internet- we post freely and speek freely here. If you're going to sell your products online, interact with online communities, and garner business this way... this is how it's done. In general, people are pretty smart and can filter through the BS. We're used to doing it as online consumers- get used to doing the same as a vendor.

3) Mario - People post on boards, in part, because it gets the vendors involved more quickly. I realize this is not always fair. I will say, that if customers feel like you're not responsive or their communications get ignored- they will turn to message boards more quickly. If you scroll back in this massive thread, you'll find that time after time, customers complain about this.

4) Mario - In general, when it comes to this group buy on this board, there is an overall feeling of frustration. Some are more frustrated by the delays and some are frustrated by the aforementioned communication issues. In this climate, customers are going to be more scrutinizing of their long-awaited products. They want a sense of "Well, at least it was worth the wait." I'll admit, that seeing the mark on my iCarbon hood made me think "uh oh". And that's not what I want when I pull out a hood that I dropped a grand on and waited 6 months for. Try seeing it from our side. We're not race teams that use carbon fiber and are used to seeing it everywhere. We don't have a racing budget. We're individual consumers, trying to add some flare to our weekend cars of daily drivers.

Here's to sanity,
~ Jeremy

[jeremydgreat]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clarkson

iCarbon is a stand up company, I have no doubts that they'd assist anyone with any of the problems alleged in this thread. I'm not sure I see the point of making this thread unless you contacted iCarbon and they refused to correct the issue to your satisfaction. They've worked with me on things above and beyond what they had to do, and I assume they'd do the same for anyone else.

I agree. I'm removing my images as I never contacted iCarbon first. To me, the issue is not enough of a big deal to warrant the hassle of shipping it back.

[HondaGoneRogue]

Mario,



Thank you for the personal response. I assure you that you do not need to tout how well made your peices are. I do not question the process or accolades you have gotten. I made sure to make that clear in the thread.



Of the issue regarding me saying "MANY", it is sadly the case that while you may have sold 100's of products, your main customers (the ones that will enventually post online and ADVERTISE to 100's of potential customer as you put it, almost all had the defects. There is only one person so far that chose to post pictures without any defect.



Furthermore, the fact that your sales team has continuously led people along for MONTHS, potential buyers included, (even though I apparently have to purchase first to be validated), on a premise that nothing would go out until it is PERFECT compounds the issue of the pieces not being perfect. I fail to see how this is suprising.



The thread has not turned away anyone, as you may think, it actually consolidates any posts of the flawed peices into one easy to contain (and eventually close) thread. People want to hear that there are no issues. And I can assure you, if I happened to bump into a thread that has a person showing pics of a bad product, and no closure or statement from you or your sales team, then I'm walking away.



If the potential sale of 100's of products is swayed by this this forum, then maybe we shouldn't build up an 811 post, 6 month long thread with over 30,000 views claiming that the wait is worth it because of quality and then have THOSE SAME CUSTOMERS find flaws in the products. I would have made sure that the people on this thread in particular got SHOWROOM pieces.



Do you know how much of our time you have wasted by us having to check this thread? I have read every page in this entire thread, and I have been behind you guys from the jump. I express my opinion when I feel it is warranted as a member of this board and try not to be biased in any way.



I am sorry that I am not a previous customer of yours. I bought the BMW spoiler and Hamann front lip before you guys even had a product to sell. If your hoods and trunk would have been available sooner, I would have them now. The reason I am concerned is I now have the blessed power of hindsight. And I choose to question the products I spend my money on.



I am sorry that this became what it has, but to blame me after everything you guys have came up short on, is really quite unprofessional.



I only know what gets advertised. And the majority of what has been shown in that thread was flawed. When you have a wide customer base as you do, and then take a small sample (this forum) it is safe to bet that if there are more than a few instances in those few, the problem is surely also affecting a wider group. Just like the HPFP you referenced.



All I wanted to see was how many people this was affecting, what is the likelyhood of it happening to me, and what you guys would do about it.



Sorry if that seems wrong to you.

[onefastman]

Mario, Andy, and Chris


I agree with you guys. The issues (small as they may be) should be taken up with you directly and there should be no reservations in the community as to whether you will take care of them or not. Most other companies will just say sorry you are SOL but ICARBON cares and fixes defects. They will fix these issues and like mario said it is as simple as a bit of wet sanding or buffing.

I am very picky with who I will give my word on and Icarbon is one of the only two. The other being Terry Burger.