Sound Quality iPod vs. Hard Drive

fancyfl1ght · 08-13-2010, 08:17 PM

Folks,

I have been told that I have a golden ear when it comes to audio. I recently did a comparison between the iPod cables vs. listening to music with the built in hard drive. Both the iPod and hard drive use 256K bit rate for MP3 encoding since I can not tolerate the digital compression for higher frequency audio like cymbal crashes.

It seems like to me that the iPod sounds better than the on-board hard disk. Does anyone here who has the H&K audio with the iPod and on-board hard disk have a similar experience?

fwmcb · 08-13-2010, 09:09 PM

have it in the 3er, I can't tell the diff.

michifan · 08-13-2010, 09:18 PM

If you do have a golden ear, and they do exist, it would depend on what the hard disk can store. I record my music as Lossless Audio, which is much higher than 256. I do it because storage (terabyte drives) are cheap and I'd rather record higher than lower.

I know my ipod does lossless, don't know about whether it can be stored that way on the hard disk.

fancyfl1ght · 08-13-2010, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michifan

If you do have a golden ear, and they do exist, it would depend on what the hard disk can store. I record my music as Lossless Audio, which is much higher than 256. I do it because storage (terabyte drives) are cheap and I'd rather record higher than lower.

I know my ipod does lossless, don't know about whether it can be stored that way on the hard disk.

I feel that the 256k bit rate is a nice compromise between disk space and nasty compression artifacts.

I am wondering that the codec might be different on the iPod vs. what the built-in hard drive is doing. Perhaps the codec BMW uses is slightly inferior to the one used by the iPod.

This may be pure speculation, but that is what I am hearing. But at least when the system produces low frequency sounds, the sub does not clip as it did in the logic 7 system in the old 745i.

fancyfl1ght · 08-14-2010, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fancyfl1ght

Folks,

I have been told that I have a golden ear when it comes to audio. I recently did a comparison between the iPod cables vs. listening to music with the built in hard drive. Both the iPod and hard drive use 256K bit rate for MP3 encoding since I can not tolerate the digital compression for higher frequency audio like cymbal crashes.

It seems like to me that the iPod sounds better than the on-board hard disk. Does anyone here who has the H&K audio with the iPod and on-board hard disk have a similar experience?

I figured it out. The iPod is sending its music via an analog cable into the BMW H&K system, while the built in hard drive is sending the signal un-converted and direct to digital signal stream to the amplifers.

It appears that even though there is additional step to perform the analog-to-digital conversion going on with the iPod, it does sound better than the direct to digital feed.

There is some sound quality improvement with the analog to digital conversion. Remarkable!

fancyfl1ght · 08-14-2010, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxnix

I hope to use wav files as those have enough compression artifacts. Lossy comprsson formats are a joke, but then it is a car first and music is secondary.

Especially with the top down. But it is good to know that the BMW engineers gave customers a choice on how they want the music to be delivered.

Folks like me, who grew up with analog to digital converters, always felt something was missing from the new generation of direct to digital amplifiers.

My daughter who can't tell the difference has been listening only to MP3 all of her young life, so I do not expect the generation who started with MP3 to tell any differences.

It makes me admire some of the design choices the made by BMW. And I am happier for it.

michifan · 08-14-2010, 07:46 PM

I have an old 32G iPod in my car that has mostly lossless audio. I have more than enough music on this ipod that I don't worry about space. The iPod Classic holds 160gigs, which would take longer to scroll through than most people drive.

I had a much more accurate ear when I was younger, but even now I can tell the difference between 256k and lossless with headphones. Now, I only record something on my computer once, so I just do everything lossless and storage has never been an issue.

Eyeman · 08-15-2010, 11:17 AM

I don't have a hard disc or a good ear. However interestingly to me, my Ipod setup definitely sounds better than any other source including satellite when I had it. I wish the stock radio received HD channels, those usually sound best to me.

michifan · 08-15-2010, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eyeman

I don't have a hard disc or a good ear. However interestingly to me, my Ipod setup definitely sounds better than any other source including satellite when I had it. I wish the stock radio received HD channels, those usually sound best to me.

Sadly, Sirus/XM is so compressed that it is often not as good as analog radio (let alone HD Radio). In order from Worst to Best

AM Radio
FM Radio (Some Stations)
Satellite Radio (All Stations)
FM Radio (Some Stations)
HD Radio
MP3 / Ipod (256 and below)
AAC Ipod Audio
Lossless Ipod Audio (from CD)
CD
Lossless Ipod Audio (from higher quality sources than CD)

fancyfl1ght · 08-15-2010, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michifan

Sadly, Sirus/XM is so compressed that it is often not as good as analog radio (let alone HD Radio). In order from Worst to Best

AM Radio
FM Radio (Some Stations)
Satellite Radio (All Stations)
FM Radio (Some Stations)
HD Radio
MP3 / Ipod (256 and below)
AAC Ipod Audio
Lossless Ipod Audio (from CD)
CD
Lossless Ipod Audio (from higher quality sources than CD)

I have the orginal BMW audiophile demo disk that came with my old 740i e38. Back then I had the orginal Mark IV Navigation and CD player. The demo disk was made by the Chesky folks. They used a higher resolution audio recording method on CD and it really made the Mark IV stereo sing.

I recently played it in the 135i and found the CD to be even better on the H&K system.

Mister Cool · 08-16-2010, 10:56 AM

gentlemen,

keep in mind, that the final sound quality is not only a matter of lossy or lossless compresion and data bitrates, but it is also a matter of the encoding method and quality of the applicated decoder - lossy 320kB AAC on good decoder might sound much better then lossless WAV or FLAC on poor decoder.

E.g. I prefer 320kB AAC then 320kB mp3
Simple 44,1kHz, 16bit PCM (CD) on Wadia sounds much better then high-data-bitrate 96kHz 24bit on cheap DVD-A / SA-CD player

If you like good sound quality for your AAC or MP3 from iPod then forget the BMW audio crap and go for Alpine CDA-117Ri with digital transfer from iPod to Alpine (only very fiew can do it), which uses internal 24bit DAC for decoding - but thats a different story :-)

VP Electricity · 08-16-2010, 05:23 PM

We can't get that deck in the States

But my iPod with Apple Lossless encoding using a Classic 160G sounds really good, better than the same files on my old 80G Video.

IMO you have to upgrade your playback system before you start worrying about some of the smallest file format differences. Yes, they are real differences - but come on, if you have base Stereo, it doesn't matter. Everything will sound like ass.

plasar · 08-18-2010, 12:19 PM

+1,000 to VP Electricity's point...

To be honest, the HK system in my 2009 135i vert was the weak point, no matter if you fed it MP3 or lossless from iPod or HDD.

Hell, I even thought the mid-range sounded better in the stock system. (See VP Electricity's point here that these were Nokia OEM speakers and that they changed for 2010...)

A quick trip to a car stereo store in SF (Audio Symphony) for a listen from my iPhone proved it. I demoed the Morel speakers there (Morel HiFi) and they were awesome.

Previously, with my E36 M3 vert, the HK system was much better, i.e. speakers were fine. It just needed more power. I demoed the same HK speaker set in a 5-series with a McIntosh amp (McIntosh), I think their 6-channel MC4000 amp. Awesome!

And lastly, I demoed DynAudio speakers in another car audio store (DynAudio). Again, after listening for 10 seconds, you could tell it had the midrange ability to reproduce voice superbly.

So, Morel, DynAudio, McIntosh. IMHO, once you get a decent sounding rig set up, then you can start appreciating whether MP3 or lossless, HDD or iPod is better.

Jedclampet · 08-18-2010, 05:33 PM

With all this being said regarding equipment quality and having read so many posts with amp, speakers and sub upgrades where is the guide to HU? In response to this thread someone spoke of the Alpine CDA 117 ri why? Doesn't the CDA 117 take the digital signal out of the Ipod and run it thru its own DAC? That is what the customer support at Alpine told me in regards to the CDA117. So that being said what is the difference between the two? And for that matter for a SQ no compromise system what would some of the top HU be? I ask all of this since the Mobridge or JBL MS8 are at or near $800 and the Bit one/Motus would be what $1800. Just seems that would leave plenty on green left over if I just swapped out the HU.

VP Electricity · 08-18-2010, 07:02 PM

You will get error codes, you lose Assist, etc.

The best SQ HU is not the best SQ iPod HU, anyway. It's the Pioneer Phase 4 (if we only discuss what's in production). It's similarly priced to a MOST gateway package.

Jedclampet · 08-19-2010, 09:58 AM

VP Elcectricity "The best SQ HU is not the best SQ iPod HU, anyway."
I found that to be true between the Alpine CDA 117 advantage the IPOD
vs the Mcintosh MX406 advantage cd's. The advantage to bypass the
DAC in the Ipod requires a higher end Dac thru a digital connection in
the HU. Clearly the DAC in the Mcintosh reads cd's real well but goes
unused when the Ipod runs an analog rca's thru the Aux inputs, too
bad. Still unanswered the difference between the two Alpines 117 vs
117ri ?

Jedclampet · 08-19-2010, 11:10 AM

Question from another direction I spoke with Mcintosh who sent me to this youtube and type in - ipod car installation-. These guys amongst other things got a digital out of the IPAD via usb converted that to optical via
a Onkyo NSD1 and sent the opitcal to a Bitone for the DAC. Now my question is is there a way to get digital out of an Ipod? And then run that into the Bitone.

08-13-2010, 08:17 PM	#1
fancyfl1ght Lieutenant 64 Rep 478 Posts Drives: 2016 BMW 228i Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Pasadena CA iTrader: (1)	Sound Quality iPod vs. Hard Drive Folks, I have been told that I have a golden ear when it comes to audio. I recently did a comparison between the iPod cables vs. listening to music with the built in hard drive. Both the iPod and hard drive use 256K bit rate for MP3 encoding since I can not tolerate the digital compression for higher frequency audio like cymbal crashes. It seems like to me that the iPod sounds better than the on-board hard disk. Does anyone here who has the H&K audio with the iPod and on-board hard disk have a similar experience? __________________ Alpine White BMW 228i (Stripper Special with Lighting Package as the ONLY option), HD-LINK IW06B-N23 Backup Camera & HDMI Input, Technic ASD Removal Harness (Wire Nut Mod), Technic Hifi Harness, Focal FDP 6.900, Hertz Energy ECX 100.5.
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08-13-2010, 09:09 PM	#2
fwmcb Major 31 Rep 1,107 Posts Drives: 2015 F30 328i X-drive Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: NB iTrader: (0) Garage List 2010 128i [0.00]	have it in the 3er, I can't tell the diff.
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08-13-2010, 09:18 PM	#3
michifan Old Soul 15 Rep 274 Posts Drives: 2008 SGM BWM 135iC Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Orlando, Florida iTrader: (0)	If you do have a golden ear, and they do exist, it would depend on what the hard disk can store. I record my music as Lossless Audio, which is much higher than 256. I do it because storage (terabyte drives) are cheap and I'd rather record higher than lower. I know my ipod does lossless, don't know about whether it can be stored that way on the hard disk.
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08-14-2010, 07:46 PM	#7
michifan Old Soul 15 Rep 274 Posts Drives: 2008 SGM BWM 135iC Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Orlando, Florida iTrader: (0)	I have an old 32G iPod in my car that has mostly lossless audio. I have more than enough music on this ipod that I don't worry about space. The iPod Classic holds 160gigs, which would take longer to scroll through than most people drive. I had a much more accurate ear when I was younger, but even now I can tell the difference between 256k and lossless with headphones. Now, I only record something on my computer once, so I just do everything lossless and storage has never been an issue.
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08-15-2010, 11:17 AM	#8
Eyeman Colonel 121 Rep 2,037 Posts Drives: 2008 135 blk, blk, step Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Atlanta, GA iTrader: (0) Garage List 1994 Porsche 968 Cab [0.00] 2017 AMG GTS [0.00] 1994 Porsche 968 Coupe [0.00] 1977 Mercedes 450SE ... [0.00] 2008 135 [8.00]	I don't have a hard disc or a good ear. However interestingly to me, my Ipod setup definitely sounds better than any other source including satellite when I had it. I wish the stock radio received HD channels, those usually sound best to me. __________________ Injen, RR OCC, MadDad Whisper, donut spare, 19x8.5et43fr 19x9.5et45r Volk LE37's, rear fenders rolled/pulled, PSS4S 225/35fr 255/30r, KW V1's, AR coated catless dps, Cross strutbar, CF grills and license plate holder, iCarbon diffuser, ETS black anodized FMIC, M3 control arms, Quaife, ER chargepipe, ForgeDV's, Topspeed Custom Tune, V3sims, Braille, Andrey_GTA rear hub mod, Ebay Mstyle front bumper and performance style side skirts.
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08-16-2010, 10:56 AM	#11
Mister Cool New Member 0 Rep 13 Posts Drives: 1er Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Germany iTrader: (0)	gentlemen, keep in mind, that the final sound quality is not only a matter of lossy or lossless compresion and data bitrates, but it is also a matter of the encoding method and quality of the applicated decoder - lossy 320kB AAC on good decoder might sound much better then lossless WAV or FLAC on poor decoder. E.g. I prefer 320kB AAC then 320kB mp3 Simple 44,1kHz, 16bit PCM (CD) on Wadia sounds much better then high-data-bitrate 96kHz 24bit on cheap DVD-A / SA-CD player If you like good sound quality for your AAC or MP3 from iPod then forget the BMW audio crap and go for Alpine CDA-117Ri with digital transfer from iPod to Alpine (only very fiew can do it), which uses internal 24bit DAC for decoding - but thats a different story :-) Last edited by Mister Cool; 08-16-2010 at 05:19 PM..
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08-16-2010, 05:23 PM	#12
VP Electricity Brigadier General 289 Rep 3,201 Posts Drives: F34 xDrive Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: portland oregon iTrader: (3)	We can't get that deck in the States But my iPod with Apple Lossless encoding using a Classic 160G sounds really good, better than the same files on my old 80G Video. IMO you have to upgrade your playback system before you start worrying about some of the smallest file format differences. Yes, they are real differences - but come on, if you have base Stereo, it doesn't matter. Everything will sound like ass.
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08-18-2010, 12:19 PM	#13
plasar plasar 24 Rep 385 Posts Drives: M3 Vert Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Portland, OR iTrader: (0) Garage List 2008 BMW M3 Conv [0.00]	+1,000 to VP Electricity's point... To be honest, the HK system in my 2009 135i vert was the weak point, no matter if you fed it MP3 or lossless from iPod or HDD. Hell, I even thought the mid-range sounded better in the stock system. (See VP Electricity's point here that these were Nokia OEM speakers and that they changed for 2010...) A quick trip to a car stereo store in SF (Audio Symphony) for a listen from my iPhone proved it. I demoed the Morel speakers there (Morel HiFi) and they were awesome. Previously, with my E36 M3 vert, the HK system was much better, i.e. speakers were fine. It just needed more power. I demoed the same HK speaker set in a 5-series with a McIntosh amp (McIntosh), I think their 6-channel MC4000 amp. Awesome! And lastly, I demoed DynAudio speakers in another car audio store (DynAudio). Again, after listening for 10 seconds, you could tell it had the midrange ability to reproduce voice superbly. So, Morel, DynAudio, McIntosh. IMHO, once you get a decent sounding rig set up, then you can start appreciating whether MP3 or lossless, HDD or iPod is better.
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08-18-2010, 05:33 PM	#14
Jedclampet Private First Class 4 Rep 115 Posts Drives: 2011 X3 Black Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Northern Jersey iTrader: (0)	SQ With all this being said regarding equipment quality and having read so many posts with amp, speakers and sub upgrades where is the guide to HU? In response to this thread someone spoke of the Alpine CDA 117 ri why? Doesn't the CDA 117 take the digital signal out of the Ipod and run it thru its own DAC? That is what the customer support at Alpine told me in regards to the CDA117. So that being said what is the difference between the two? And for that matter for a SQ no compromise system what would some of the top HU be? I ask all of this since the Mobridge or JBL MS8 are at or near $800 and the Bit one/Motus would be what $1800. Just seems that would leave plenty on green left over if I just swapped out the HU.
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08-18-2010, 07:02 PM	#15
VP Electricity Brigadier General 289 Rep 3,201 Posts Drives: F34 xDrive Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: portland oregon iTrader: (3)	You will get error codes, you lose Assist, etc. The best SQ HU is not the best SQ iPod HU, anyway. It's the Pioneer Phase 4 (if we only discuss what's in production). It's similarly priced to a MOST gateway package.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

08-19-2010, 09:58 AM	#16
Jedclampet Private First Class 4 Rep 115 Posts Drives: 2011 X3 Black Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Northern Jersey iTrader: (0)	SQ VP Elcectricity "The best SQ HU is not the best SQ iPod HU, anyway." I found that to be true between the Alpine CDA 117 advantage the IPOD vs the Mcintosh MX406 advantage cd's. The advantage to bypass the DAC in the Ipod requires a higher end Dac thru a digital connection in the HU. Clearly the DAC in the Mcintosh reads cd's real well but goes unused when the Ipod runs an analog rca's thru the Aux inputs, too bad. Still unanswered the difference between the two Alpines 117 vs 117ri ?
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08-19-2010, 11:10 AM	#17
Jedclampet Private First Class 4 Rep 115 Posts Drives: 2011 X3 Black Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Northern Jersey iTrader: (0)	SQ Question from another direction I spoke with Mcintosh who sent me to this youtube and type in - ipod car installation-. These guys amongst other things got a digital out of the IPAD via usb converted that to optical via a Onkyo NSD1 and sent the opitcal to a Bitone for the DAC. Now my question is is there a way to get digital out of an Ipod? And then run that into the Bitone.
	Appreciate 0 Quote