an "old school" approach...

[The Dowager Countess]

Back when I was playing with VWs, Shine Racing Services in Walpole, Massachusetts was my go to shop. Dick Shine was a suspension and set-up master who later became really good with chip tuning too despite his generation's regular aversion to such things. He "got" cars and I had him prepare four different cars for me. He's out of the game now, but i thought you guys might appreciate some contrarian thoughts regarding suspension and some other stuff. Not all of it is applicable to an evenly balanced rear wheel drive car like our 1-series but some of it still resonates with me. (Dick's aversion to coil-overs informed my choice to go with Koni yellows and Swift springs for example.) Anyway- check this shit out and let's discuss it. BTW i've never driven a better handling car than those that Dick prepped for me- but that's an aside.

WHY LOWERING SPRINGS DON T WORK
Every car has a suspension designed to work in a certain range. Cars with strut type suspensions are extremely sensitive to ride height because of the basic nature of this type of suspension. There is a limited amount of travel available to accommodate both bump and droop movement and lowering immediately reduces bump travel (Very bad for street driving). Droop travel is also reduced and causes increased wheel spin as the tire is actually lifted up during cornering. Lowering also increases both bump steer and roll steer. And if this isn t bad enough it moves the camber into a range that ensures tire wear problems. That still isn t the worst thing! Lowering the vehicle lowers the center of gravity about 80% of the amount of the actual lowering (You didn't move the wheels tires axles suspension components while you move the roll center far more than the actual lowering) This increases the distance between center of gravity and the roll center creating a larger roll moment (the tendency to body roll) but it can't roll very far because of the bump travel due to lowering. This is always a bad thing for front wheel drive and results increased under steer. The truly ironic thing is that in the rear the roll center is approx. at ground level and doesn t really change from lowering. The rear get more grip and the under steer gets even worse! There are plenty of companies that are happy to sell you “Sport Lowering Springs” but you won't find them at SRS because we don't sell anything that we know is bad for your car! There is no real reason to lower most cars except peer pressure from knuckle draggers!

COILOVERS
We get a lot of requests for coilovers to use on street cars .There are no good reasons to use these and plenty of reasons not to.
There is no intrinsic reason to use a coilover suspension.

Coilovers usually have less available travel than a well thought out spring/shock combo.

Coilovers almost always have more unsprung weight. This degrades handling and ride quality.

Coilover suspensions allow the owner to set the car to heights that may be dangerous or damage the car. Getting them right requires a skilled race mechanic and a set of scales.

Changing the ride height changes the alignment.

Usually coilovers prevent the use of dust boots and weather protection compromising the life of the shocks.

On a street driven vehicle coilovers will never handle as well as a well engineered spring/shock combo.
Coilovers often require wheel spacers to clear the tire. Slip in springs do not.

PROGRESSIVE SPRINGS This is real simple!There are no springs in the aftermarket that are actually progressive in the installed condition. I have tested hundreds of springs from dozens of companies and the force vs. displacement graph line is always perfectly straight!There are springs with uneven coil winds,dead coils,and wire diameter changes but these people have no experience and do no actual testing! In the 70's VW put true progressive springs on the rear of Siroccos. They are the only ones I have ever seen!

HIGH FLOW CATS
There are currently NO replacement cats on the market that flow as well as the stock OEM VW cat. There are plenty of claims but every one I ever put on the dyno lost HP compared to stock. There are cat cores that can be obtained from England or Germany that I have seen make more power than stock but these must be grafted onto the stock housing(a lot of work)For my 1.8t customers that wish to replace their front pipe I can cut and graft larger pipes(A pain but worth it)To those who want to remove their cat in the deluded belief that they will make more power WAKE UP! Besides being totally illegal and causing check engine lights you will loose power!The stock cat is good to 400 hp. If you want more power look complete exhaust. The muffler and resonators are far more restrictive! Don't eve think about a 3” system unless you're making more than 400hp. 21/2 works great for most and 2 ¼ for the rest .There are actually companies that make 3” systems with 2 ½ restrictors .These are just horrible!

COLD AIR INTAKES I frequently see problems caused by cold air intakes. The truth of the matter is that the stock intake systems on these cars is excellent!I have been testing these systems for more than 20 years and not one has outperformed stock. Many cause running problems,check engine lights and damaged mass air flow sensors. Most don't have the filter area of a stock filter,and some can cause hydro locking of the engine (VERY EXPENSIVE TO FIX!)None of these intakes addresses the need for warm air in winter months and many remove the mesh grid just before the mass air flow sensor that straightens the flow past the sensor to ensure accurate readings.

UPPER SRUT BRACES I had a car in the shop recently that had been towed in. The strut brace had broken the throttle body! Here are some great reasons not to use one.

The loads on the upper body are almost purely vertical. No strut brace can help this.
Most are so poorly made that they can be bent by hand!How much help can this be?
Many require drilling the strut tower creating a perfect breeding ground for rust.
On VW'S the firewall does a great job of holding everything together and needs no help! Most turn every day maintenance jobs into a chore.

[Taskmaster]

Basically OEM is better, so don't try to upgrade. Ok.

[Gray_Panther]

I have a set of Koni Sport Yellows and Eibach Pro-Kit springs in my basement, either waiting to be sold or installed this year. What are your thoughts on this spring/shock combo on my 128i?

[631twentyeighteye]

My lowered car certainly has less body roll than with stock springs regardless of what reason you use you explain it. I know it's not the best way by any means, but i guarantee you it handles better than the shitty mushy msport suspension. I eventually plan on getting Koni FSD's to compliment the springs.

The only downside now is trying to avoid potholes

[Freon]

Some are perhaps ignorant that what they're doing primarily for looks is also hurting performance, and they just assume "lower is better" or don't realize coilovers require a special corner weighting step on top of just an alignment.

But I think if you press them, the type of people doing those mods are not actually that concerned about performance and are instead more concerned about a certain look. "Hellaflush" wheels with narrow and stretched tires on huge wheels, cars lowered too much, etc. I don't know too many (any?) people with 225mm tires on their 10" wide wheels that autocross, for instance.

[The Dowager Countess]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Basically OEM is better, so don't try to upgrade. Ok.

that's not at all what he is saying. dick thought most stock suspensions sucked for street let alone for racing. he was a huge proponent of replacing springs- dialing in the proper rate and using sway bars, camber, tires and good shocks to make a car competitive on the track and/or more fun for spirited road driving. i don't think you are reading this rant correctly.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by The Dowager Countess

that's not at all what he is saying. dick thought most stock suspensions sucked for street let alone for racing. he was a huge proponent of replacing springs- dialing in the proper rate and using sway bars, camber, tires and good shocks to make a car competitive on the track and/or more fun for spirited road driving. i don't think you are reading this rant correctly.

I read it correctly - and I agree somewhat. A lot of parts are bling factor and don't do much, but I don't see many options for a valve matched "spring and strut combo" that includes things like camber plates.

While I'm not a big fan of adjustable damping coilovers, I don't think it makes sense to pay $1000 for a spring and strut combo, plus $400 for camber plates and NOT have the option of picking your own spring rates. Ground control will build you a kit, including valving the shocks to your springs for $1700, not to mention the years of experience they have building suspension kits for various cars.

Bracing, CAIs, and HFC all have thier place - and while engine mods are noticable from the seat of the pants and have a measurable effect on performance, braces/bushings/etc usually don't amount to anything other than placebo.

[The Dowager Countess]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

I read it correctly - and I agree somewhat. A lot of parts are bling factor and don't do much, but I don't see many options for a valve matched "spring and strut combo" that includes things like camber plates.

While I'm not a big fan of adjustable damping coilovers, I don't think it makes sense to pay $1000 for a spring and strut combo, plus $400 for camber plates and NOT have the option of picking your own spring rates. Ground control will build you a kit, including valving the shocks to your springs for $1700, not to mention the years of experience they have building suspension kits for various cars.

Bracing, CAIs, and HFC all have thier place - and while engine mods are noticable from the seat of the pants and have a measurable effect on performance, braces/bushings/etc usually don't amount to anything other than placebo.

'

^^i agree with all of this. remember too that the above rants are several years old and are about front wheel drive mki-mkv VWs which have very different suspension geometries than our cars. Our cars do benefit from lowering- GTIs don't. In fact, the fastest mkii-mki4 VWs often look as if they've been lowered in the back and raised in the front. looks really stupid imho- but works.

still some of this stuff holds true for our cars and it's worth a read and a discussion!

[TheSt|G]

I agree this applies to most products, but if you know what you are doing and are willing to spend a good amount, you can get significant upgrades.

[Blacksport]

I think the guy you're quoting, Dick Shine, has taken the approach that many guys who play with their suspension, end up losing more than they gain, which is true. Since street cars don't have height-adjustable steering racks, too much lowering will cause bumpsteer. If you steering arms are not level at ride-height, you got a problem. Also true, struts have a very narrow range of travel, so a lowered spring in a stock strut will lose very precious travel. I also agree with him about progressive springs, there probably is some slight progression there, but it usually collapses quickly lowering the car, so I'd rather have some "normal" spring there...

I don't agree with everything he said about coilovers...the good ones won't add unsprung weight, they'll reduce it because the spring they use is much lighter than the stock monster spring...the good ones will have as much or more travel than stock...and after all, most struts are coilover anyway....but you still could make a mess of your suspension with coilovers if you don't know what your doing....

[andrey_gta]

A suspension that applies to this philosophy would be as follows:
Swift spec r sprigs
Bilstein hd or b8 in the front custom valved to match springs
M3 rear carrier arm
Bilstein hd or b8(if they make it)for the e9x m3 rear custom valves

[Solo_M_Tech]

I'm sure those people who invest money in quality coil overs or springs and struts do so knowing it will improve the track capabilities of their car. I agree that on a street driven vehicle those mods are mostly for appearances, and usually make the ride quality worse. IMO, the best setup for the street would be better struts, and springs that are matched to the weight of the car. Every street car I've driven with coilovers was, well terrible. Ride was always to harsh. I'd like to lower my car about an inch or so, but I plan on going with springs and struts. How would Koni yellows and Eibach pro kit springs work together? I'd like to keep the cost around $800.

[andrey_gta]

Originally Posted by Sinister_1

How would Koni yellows and Eibach pro kit springs work together? I'd like to keep the cost around $800.

popular combination. Plenty of images of the drop here. Its mild but very nice, lower than BMW perf. The B12 kit also uses eibach