Losing sleep over Deal

[spongeWorthy]

Originally Posted by rocketpop

I would not lose sleep over it, they are not your friend, they are in it to make money. The would not think twice in getting over on you if given the chance and sleep very well at night doing so.

[Don-Corleone]

Originally Posted by EspressoBoy

(weak like our friend espressoboy or tough like me)

Please explain how I was weak.

The dog is a joke. I do agree it's quite silly, I don't own a pet, I used to have yoda avatar, but this was too funny...

As for saying someone is nice I don't see how that is a bad thing?

EspressoBoy

Don't perceive it as a bad thing but when it comes to negotiating a deal you mainly have 2 types of customers (obviously if you go into details no single customers is alike but very grossly):

A) nice ones who are easy to deal with like you seem to be and tend to be easier at accepting a deal since they are less informed/concerned
B) tougher ones who are more educated and discriminating about the product they are buying and who research everything before taking a decision; not as nice with the sales man (myself for instance)!

The dog thing was a joke ! Take it easy my friend and enjoy the 135i it's a monster I can't wait for mine!

Don-

[dbtheo]

Originally Posted by All4One

I really like you dbtheo Thanks!:smile: but i will have to disaggree with you for the first time. You see, the arrangement was not a contract, there were no specific language that says so.

That is the dilemma we are facing now as customers and probably dealerships. The normal dynamics of purchasing has changed from this 1 series and perhaps also in the past for cars being newly introduced. The reasonable expectation from a person purchasing a car from your end (dealerships) is completely different from the perspective of the buyer. To map out the process,
1. you agree on a price.
2. You tender a deposit to reserve the product. Delivery time unknown.
3. Wait till the product becomes available.

As you realize, in between those steps, a lot of loopholes will arise. here are my points. When you put a deposit, is there a document signed with agreements on it? I think there is none. If none, then the legal system will be the re-course (now, it could vary from state to state). Same with the expectation of time of delivery-there is none outline, what 6-7-8 weeks on and on. The production number given is not even a guarantee to have a vehicle. You see, the open-ness of the transaction gives both parties a lot of re-courses. Classic example is the A and B case. A put a price, B offers a lower price, C-customer backs out from A. The open market nature of the business developed this environment.

Another point, the transactions outlines a historical approach by salesmen and i believe that is what you are pointing out. The "I
got you approach" . You see, the traditional sales mechanism goes like this... "C" gets into a dealership, agree on the price and goes 2 ways.. roll out the product and its a done deal.The second one is a little similar to what the reservation process that we have on the 1 series. A or B will hold the price and the product for you if you tender a commitment until X time. The difference with the 1 series, the product is not there, so the promise is both ways. "I will secure a product for you if you give a commitment" no time elements, no commitment on the delivery date. So the philosophy of "I have given you my word" can not withstand legal scrutiny except for some states. Now, poster "Mega" you created a scenario like this on one of your threads. In some states that a verbal contract holds, you are "toast". It is good you are not here in california.

I cannot speak to his particlular circumstance as far what was signed, because he has not mentioned it. But I would assume that most, if not all, BMW centers do as we do:

• We identify the product to be purchased
• Define specifications if need be
• Agree on price
• Locate or select needed allocation (make sure pricing is correct)
• Write up a buyers/ purchase agreement. All parties sign including manager.
• secure deposit
• place order

We will not custom order vehicles, just to order them. We must have signed purchase order with deposit. I am assuming the OP had to do the same, if he didn't that's one thing. But if he did, then imo, he re-nigged. Granted it was to his benefit. I'm not mad at him, doesn't mean I have to agree with it though:iono:
Also, we put the clients production & or vin on those forms as well. It becomes their vehicle. Now I understand, there have been some cases of dealers either providing numbers or a promise of a number & then something "happening" . But I think we can all agree that is generally the exception, not the rule. Heck, I have benefited from a couple of those "exceptions". But again, if either or both of the OP's dealerships ordered cars without signed agreements or money or whatever, then each got what they deserved for doing sloppy business.

[All4One]

Good point Dbtheo, if all those parameters you mentioned were included, yes i will agree. Someone has to be held accountable. But of course at this point ,dealerships will have the weaker hand (yes, i am a poker player) and has to give in and not pursue the case (legal costs) and to avoid bad publicity.

[dbtheo]

Originally Posted by All4One

Good point Dbtheo, if all those parameters you mentioned were included, yes i will agree. Someone has to be held accountable. But of course at this point ,dealerships will have the weaker hand (yes, i am a poker player) and has to give in and not pursue the case (legal costs) and to avoid bad publicity.

I cannot reasonably see a dealer pursing it at all, it is certainly more trouble than it's worth. And looking at the car in question, it should sell pretty easily. As far as I'm concerned, ultimately we win some, lose some. But (to me atleast) principals still matter.

[All4One]

Originally Posted by Don-Corleone

Don't perceive it as a bad thing but when it comes to negotiating a deal you mainly have 2 types of customers (obviously if you go into details no single customers is alike but very grossly):

A) nice ones who are easy to deal with like you seem to be and tend to be easier at accepting a deal since they are less informed/concerned
B) tougher ones who are more educated and discriminating about the product they are buying and who research everything before taking a decision; not as nice with the sales man (myself for instance)!

The dog thing was a joke ! Take it easy my friend and enjoy the 135i it's a monster I can't wait for mine!

Don-

Senore Don,

La mia madre mi ricorda sempre non aggrovigliare con il c**ra n**a but i wanted to point out somethings you said as your sales philosophy. This could have worked in the 70's,80's until today but one day you will be swept by the changing winds with respect to car sales. I have encountered salemen who arrogantly tell like what you just did, that you treat customers depending on their posture, how educated they are with the product, etc.. in my simple language, "if the customer looks like an idiot, then you take advantage of it" I know its about business and that is your craft, i probably dont have the business to meddle with it. In a way, you are correct too, this poses a challenge to us consumers to arm with knowledge but generally people are nice, that's what we are, and naive too ,a lot of us were not trained to conive, put deceipt, tell nice language..we were trained with just straight talk..like "ahhh i like the 135 how much is it?" I wish we could all be rich and dont bother. If you ask me if i am complaining? The answer is yes...enough of the charade. The sales procedure has to change and if it will come..i am sure yiu will get swept out of your feet. Now flame away guys, i can take some heat.

[amurph182]

Originally Posted by Don-Corleone

A) nice ones who are easy to deal with like you seem to be and tend to be easier at accepting a deal since they are less informed/concerned
B) tougher ones who are more educated and discriminating about the product they are buying and who research everything before taking a decision; not as nice with the sales man (myself for instance)!

this is exactly what I'm talking about. You see customers as either stupid and readily accepting a deal that is not the best they could get, or they are informed and know what they want to pay for the car and are thus "not as nice" because they will happily walk out the door if you can't give them the best price. This is why people don't give a crap if a dealer loses money on a car, because they're tired of walking into a dealership and having it be an adversarial game. Maybe people wouldn't be such jerks about getting some insanely low price if they didn't think that any penny above that price was somehow being stolen from them by the salesman, a feeling which is almost entirely due to the actions of the industry itself. I know that there are plenty of customers who think they're some kind of car buying genius and act like complete jerks throughout the process, and I've seen it. It's really annoying. But it's also annoying to have two different people go to the same salesman at the same dealership and buy the same car, they're both told that the price is the absolute best deal they can get, and have the prices be hundreds of dollars apart, if not even more. There's one such story right on this forum.

I know exactly what I want, and exactly what I want to pay. That doesn't make me "not as nice", it makes me an informed customer who will take his business to the dealership that gives him the best deal and treats me with an ounce of respect. I don't play games, I simply refuse to be taken advantage of. Hell, just last week I had a salesman try to convince me that $1300 over invoice was a great deal...which it IS for a 135, except for the fact that the "invoice price" he quoted me was actually about $1000 below MSRP. Do I feel bad if a guy like that gets screwed on a deal? Nope, I don't. In fact, I'm slightly entertained by it.

dbtheo

We will not custom order vehicles, just to order them. We must have signed purchase order with deposit. I am assuming the OP had to do the same, if he didn't that's one thing. But if he did, then imo, he re-nigged. Granted it was to his benefit. I'm not mad at him, doesn't mean I have to agree with it though

How solid of a contract can it be if the customer can simply call up and say "changed my mind" and the dealership just gives him back his deposit? It's 1 of 3 things...either the purchase agreement is simply not binding or enforcable, it actually allows the customer to walk away whenever they want, or dealers just don't pursue it because they don't care or they see it as not being in their interest. At the end of the day, if dealers aren't willing to assert their rights under these agreements, if such rights exist, then can you really blame people for walking away like this? At the very least they should be keeping the deposit, but I can't think of any of these stories that I've heard where that happened. I can see that you might get some bad press or word of mouth if you go after people and force them to pay for the cars, but keeping the deposit would probably not be seen that badly.

[dbtheo]

Originally Posted by amurph182

You see customers as either e if the customer can simply call up and say "changed my mind" and the dealership just gives him back his deposit? It's 1 of 3 things...either the purchase agreement is simply not binding or enforcable, it actually allows the customer to walk away whenever they want, or dealers just don't pursue it because they don't care or they see it as not being in their interest. At the end of the day, if dealers aren't willing to assert their rights under these agreements, if such rights exist, then can you really blame people for walking away like this? At the very least they should be keeping the deposit, but I can't think of any of these stories that I've heard where that happened. I can see that you might get some bad press or word of mouth if you go after people and force them to pay for the cars, but keeping the deposit would probably not be seen that badly.

Ultimately, since these cases are relatively rare, it generally is not worth pursuing, especially if you are a smaller market store. When factoring in the cost of pursuing against the sale it doesnt make sense. We have in very rare cases kept the deposit, in order to offset costs we would not have normally had. For example I once had car flatbedded in for a client. It cost us $600 to have it brought in. The day before scheduled delivery, he decides to purchase a Mercedes. We had $500 deposit, which we ended up keeping to pay for the towing of the car he had agreed to purchase. Needless to say he was not happy & thought we were being completely unfair & felt the towing costs were our problem,not his. He didn't think that mattered that it was brought in only for him & that we should "eat it" as a cost of doing business. But outside issues like that, it honestly is not worth the headache. Honestly I have no real idea the full legalities of these issues, & truthfully I really don't care if I can legally "force" someone to uphold a signed agreement. If some one really wants to back out of a deal I have far more important things in life to worry about than that.

[amurph182]

Originally Posted by dbtheo

Ultimately, since these cases are relatively rare, it generally is not worth pursuing, especially if you are a smaller market store. When factoring in the cost of pursuing against the sale it doesnt make sense. We have in very rare cases kept the deposit, in order to offset costs we would not have normally had. For example I once had car flatbedded in for a client. It cost us $600 to have it brought in. The day before scheduled delivery, he decides to purchase a Mercedes. We had $500 deposit, which we ended up keeping to pay for the towing of the car he had agreed to purchase. Needless to say he was not happy & thought we were being completely unfair & felt the towing costs were our problem,not his. He didn't think that mattered that it was brought in only for him & that we should "eat it" as a cost of doing business. But outside issues like that, it honestly is not worth the headache. Honestly I have no real idea the full legalities of these issues, & truthfully I really don't care if I can legally "force" someone to uphold a signed agreement. If some one really wants to back out of a deal I have far more important things in life to worry about than that.

that makes sense.