Quasi-streetable track pads - why so hard?

[nanotech]

Originally Posted by asbrr

nanotech , Mike you just need to be easier on your brakes and your problem is solved...I've seen you take out all your aggression on your poor brakes LOL

So another option is....to drive slower

Ah, Ash... as you know, I need to be moved to the fastest run group, so that I can drive flat out...

[markslc1]

Originally Posted by arc_resistant

Let me give you a counter opinion on EBC pads.


EBC yellow: More initial bite than the blues, probably higher mu too giving less pedal pressure required. Faster wear rate than blue. Brutal brake dust.

EBC blue: My current pad of choice. Endurance compound puts up with the abuse of heavy 135 better. Good but not great initial bite. Brake dust is surprising low for a track pad. I get 4-5 days at Area27 before I want to change the pads.

+1 for EBC yellows. I use as my only pad for street and track and had no issues at all. Of course im in a 128 so the speeds are lower.

Also interested in hearing about your Area27 experience. Does this ever open up to the public? Looks like a great track.

[Ginger_Extract]

EBC Yellows if you're stock power and using street tires. Ran them when my 1er was my daily and they handled Willow Springs with aplomb.

If you're a more advanced driver/your car is modified, I'll second PFC08. Running them now, less bite than the Hawk DTC60/70, but seems easier on rotors thus far. The Hawks would be fine for daily if they weren't such rotor killers on the street. The brake dust was appalling, as well. Covered the whole car.

[nanotech]

Hey, thanks for really helpful reply, unlike that asbrr jerk

Originally Posted by arc_resistant

Let me give you a counter opinion on EBC pads.

I've run both the Yellows and Blues as a street/track pad. I have not found them to be rotor aggressive at all. Quite the opposite in fact.
...

That's encouraging! I haven't found the Blues for sale anywhere in Canada as of yet, but Yellows seem easy to come by.

Originally Posted by arc_resistant

EBC yellow: More initial bite than the blues, probably higher mu too giving less pedal pressure required. Faster wear rate than blue. Brutal brake dust.

EBC blue: My current pad of choice. Endurance compound puts up with the abuse of heavy 135 better. Good but not great initial bite. Brake dust is surprising low for a track pad. I get 4-5 days at Area27 before I want to change the pads. On the street they work from cold, but you need a couple of stops to get the best out of them. No squealing, some mild brake noise upon application.

Area27, I'm jealous. I think I'd go with the Yellows over Blues based on your description of behaviour.

Originally Posted by arc_resistant

General comments:
The best mod I did for my brakes was getting rid of the splash shield. This allowed much better airflow around the entire disc. Like fe1rx did in his BBK, I protected the rubber boots at the ball joints from direct radiated heat. This applies especially to the tie rods.

Will look into this.

Originally Posted by arc_resistant

One other thing I learned is how to use the brakes properly. The key is to use the brakes very hard at the beginning of the braking zone. Dump as much energy as you can while speeds are higher and airflow is better to pull the heat away. Maintain a near constant pedal pressure and then trail off the brakes as you enter the corner. If you find yourself coming to the end of the braking zone and are pushing the pedal harder to get it slowed down in time you are adding extra heat at a time when airflow is the lowest. This really amps up the brake temperatures.

I'd like to say I'm doing this already but I am a trail braker so I'm not really releasing enough pressure to cool the rotors as you'd recommend. I definitely have the high pedal pressure at initial application, and do release pressure, but I'm still trying to rotate rear of the vehicle as much as I can since it's an understeering 1WD pig even with mods, and getting it rotated is helpful

Originally Posted by arc_resistant

Last thing. I've noticed that I get significant longitudinal tapered pad wear. Bad enough that I regularly flip the pad set over in the calipers to combat it. Yes, I have to re-bed the pads, but to me it is worth it. Seeing fe1rx's BBK thread listing the caliper piston diameters shows that the AP caliper has a greater difference in diameters than the factory one. I'd be interested in knowing if the pads in the AP have better wear.

Anyone else run into this type of tapered pad wear?

Yes the HP Plus exhibit the same behaviour. I've had to flip them and re-bed in mid-summer a couple times. The piston design on the 135i caliper is just generally shit for track use for many reasons, this is yet another.

Anyways, enjoy Area27, you lucky bastard! Thanks for feedback!

[arc_resistant]

Originally Posted by nanotech

That's encouraging! I haven't found the Blues for sale anywhere in Canada as of yet, but Yellows seem easy to come by.

http://www.tdotperformance.ca
Only thing to be aware of is delivery time, typical is 2-3 weeks. Plan ahead when ordering.

Originally Posted by nanotech

I'd like to say I'm doing this already but I am a trail braker so I'm not really releasing enough pressure to cool the rotors as you'd recommend. I definitely have the high pedal pressure at initial application, and do release pressure, but I'm still trying to rotate rear of the vehicle as much as I can since it's an understeering 1WD pig even with mods, and getting it rotated is helpful

Oh, I trail brake. Deep. Like you, I found it was the best way to get my nearly stock car around the corner. (M3 arms + alignment pin + 235/40/18 RE71R square)

I recently discovered though, that I may be over doing it. Clearest example is a third gear right hander where I found that the front end turned in MORE when I got off the brake. Clearly I was asking the front tires for too much braking for the amount the wheel was turned. I've been experimenting with a lighter touch on the brake pedal. Not enough data yet to say if it is a success though.

Originally Posted by nanotech

Anyways, enjoy Area27, you lucky bastard! Thanks for feedback!

How could a gearhead like me say no? It is right in my backyard - only a 35 minute drive away. Western Canada really needed a proper racetrack, so it was worth the up front cash to help ensure that it got built.

[arc_resistant]

Originally Posted by Ginger_Extract

EBC Yellows if you're stock power and using street tires. Ran them when my 1er was my daily and they handled Willow Springs with aplomb.

If you're a more advanced driver/your car is modified, I'll second PFC08. Running them now, less bite than the Hawk DTC60/70, but seems easier on rotors thus far. The Hawks would be fine for daily if they weren't such rotor killers on the street. The brake dust was appalling, as well. Covered the whole car.

Agree on the point about stock power and street tires. Add another 100 hp and I don't think the blues could keep up with the amount of energy to be dumped.

[dbronnik]

I ran PFC08 and Hawks on the street, both were great on the track, but hilariously loud on the street (car is louder than a semi coming at a stop at slow speeds without any head in the pads). I don't think either of those is a real option for dual duty street and track pad unless you want to drive with ear plugs (although I did it for a long time).

[HP Autosport]

PFC is likely not going to bring back the 08 compound for the 135i. Hawk is a good option. Pagid as well.

Ferodo has been out of the DS2500 for a while now.

Sport street pad options would be Stoptech Sport and Porterfield R4S. There are many others as well.

[_Ryan_]

Project Mu HC+ http://www.project-mu.co.jp/en/products/pad_hcplus.html

[beattiecj]

I'm running carbotech xp10s for track and street no complaints aside from occasional squealing. One item to be aware I think they shift slightly inside the caliper due to being just slightly smaller to allow expansion when hot and you will hear a clunking noise every now and then. Note I only have one track day on these and I recommend them over ebc yellow no fade, little wear, and great bite on stock power and pss.

I had ebc yellows great mix, but only lasted two track days on stock power and pss, I may have been a bit harder on the brakes then needed, it was my first two track days. They have a great price point compared to hawk, pfc08s and carbotech.

[nanotech]

Originally Posted by beattiecj

I'm running carbotech xp10s for track and street no complaints aside from occasional squealing. One item to be aware I think they shift slightly inside the caliper due to being just slightly smaller to allow expansion when hot and you will hear a clunking noise every now and then. Note I only have one track day on these and I recommend them over ebc yellow no fade, little wear, and great bite on stock power and pss.

I had ebc yellows great mix, but only lasted two track days on stock power and pss, I may have been a bit harder on the brakes then needed, it was my first two track days. They have a great price point compared to hawk, pfc08s and carbotech.

Awesome feedback, thanks to you and to other recent posters. Shame about the PFC08s being gone. Going to try the EBC Yellowstuff for a couple sessions as like you say they are cheap; if they go away fast, then it will be Pagid Oranges.

Will be interesting to see how much noisier they are than the HP Plus pads. I killed the HP+s off last Wednesday along with the last useful life in my old tires, now I have a lot of parts installs and pickup of my ARC-8/PSS to do over next couple weeks before next session.

[crowtrobot]

Will chime in here with my experience as well:

Ran three events last year on stock 128i calipers and lines, Motul 600 fluid, and Hawk HPS pads. Didn't really like the feel of the pads on the street or the track, kind of numb, squeaked and were dustier than stock, and still had some heating issues on the track.

Over the winter, changed to the BMWP Kit (135i brakes, yes I'm aware of the limitations), stainless brake lines and EBC Yellowstuff. Feel was great. Nice sharp bite and predictable, though pretty effing dusty at first. Squeaking was minimal. Track performance of the EBC Yellows was very good, BUT, durability was crap. Two days with four, twenty minute sessions per day left me with probably 40% pad up front, 75% in the rear.



Day 1 was rainy as well, so speeds were not high, and temperatures were low. I've emailed EBC and they said that amount of wear seemed unusual, but have yet to hear back to see what they will do about it.

Debating what the next move will be - was hoping for a S/T pad that would last me through most of the summer without having to swap to street pads (the Hawk HPS lasted 3 events, but really didn't like the feel), but it looks like I may just have to bite the bullet and get Hawk HT10s if I don't want to be buying replacements after each event...

[HP Autosport]

HT10 will be a good intermediate pad. If more brake torque is needed, DTC series will provide that.

[crowtrobot]

Just a quick update - EBC support was really gracious and sent me a whole new set of pads since they said that amount of wear seemed abnormal.

Here's a pic of the new pad next to the worn one for comparison. Doesn't look quite as bad as it did on the rotor, but it was still down to ~50% which would have kept me from using them for another track weekend. Also, all the glue that held the shim to the backing plate was cooked, so the shim just popped right off.



Will be out at Watkins again in a week, will have another datapoint for how the Yellowstuff hold up after that. Even if they don't hold up as well, props to EBC for standing by their product.

[nanotech]

Just installed the EBC Yellowstuff. Nice packaging I like the bedding texture on the pads, nice touch.

Car is waiting on an alignment from someone qualified to do it after a bunch of other control arm and camber plate upgrades, so no track time lined up in next few days, but hoping to get out this Friday to try them out.

Initial feel after a bedding session is pretty good, much better pedal feel than the HP Plus both cold and at temperature. Also did stainless lines and a fluid flush rather than bleed as part of the recent upgrade round, so not totally fair comparison between the high-temp performance, but looking forward to a track session soon to see how we did!

(Just need to get the wheels pointing straight again first!)

[tsk94]

PFC08's or Pagid RS29's if you want a proper race pad.

Otherwise probably EBC Yellows, hard to beat for the price too.

Edit: Good choice on the yellows, should work well for what you're looking for..

[nanotech]

Quick update:
Two track days in now on the EBC Yellowstuff, one on street rubber and one on new ARC-8/Hankook RS4 sub-R tires. Done about 1500km in street driving as well.

Track review (Cayuga, ON - short road course, 4 hard braking zones):
First day out, first session out after 250km of street bedding and EBC suggested bedding procedure. About 4 laps in, massive fade - stiff pedal, but no stopping. Cooled and came in, got frustrated, read up on EBC pad breakin some more. Decided I had "green fade" and followed the EBC guidelines to bed on-track (brake hard for a couple laps constantly, then cool). Went back out. Pads kept coming to me more and more. Did about 25 more laps first night, I'd run 5 laps hard then a cooling lap, or just come in and cool. Worked well. However, I took 1-2mm off the fronts in that day...

Next session on the RS4 rubber. Pads were AMAZING. Half lap to warm them, and then they were solid for longer than the rubber - could do 10 laps on them easily, with occasional back off for a bit of cooling. The RS4s got greasy before the pads gave up. Measured the rotor temps with an IR thermometer after a cool-down lap - 480C!!! Jesus. Pads were still biting well at pretty much any temp. They are not the end all/be all of track pads but I am happy with the cooling I'm getting from them and the predictability of braking. Nothing like the HP Plus which just disappeared past a certain temperature and left me in the weeds a couple times. Wore another 1-2mm off of the fronts. These pads will not last long!

Daily driving:
Now that they are well bedded, I am pretty comfortable with them. You get a false sense of security while going through the bed-in coating that grabs really well at city speeds. Once that's gone, you better hope you have the pads and rotors well mated!
Noise is generally minimal, occasional squeals. Far quieter than the HP Plus, which I'd have to enter my neighbourhood using e-brake to avoid waking neighbours.
Pedal feel when cold is a bit tricky - panic stop at highway speeds is probably a few feet longer than you'd get from an OE pad before the heat kicks in the bite and the ABS engages. This COULD be the difference between a clean stop and eating someone else's trunk, so keep that in mind and drive with some gap. I will NOT be driving these in the winter, for the record - back to OE then.

The dust is INSANE. The OE pads were annoying. The HP Plus were funny. These are ridiculous. If you like clean wheels, move along, these aren't for you.

Net:
Wear rate is very high on these - I got two seasons on the HP Plus but could do at most 5 laps at a time on my tracks before they overheated and fell off the CoF cliff so maybe not apples/apples. These will maybe last one summer if I'm lucky. However, the benefit in consistency and temperature management are more than worth it, particularly for the cost of them. They are practically free compared to a Pagid RS29.

Conclusion:
Would I buy another set? Not sure. If the pads on the front calipers were drop ins that I could put in before track, I might consider them for track-only.

Probably next I'll try the RS29s or maybe the EBC Blue, which are apparently a more durable compound with similar CoF behaviour. These are competent disposable pads in the meantime.

Thanks all for advice, will keep you posted as to behaviour as time progresses.

[drunkenup]

Ahh, I couldn't give you my experience with Yellows soon enough. I took them on track three weeks ago, but I'll share anyway for the sake of others.

I half-bedded them in. Got maybe 5 or six 70-0 mph runs before a sn95 mustang turned onto the road and tailed me through 25 mph residential street, and passed me over double yellow AFTER I signaled and started to turn left to get out of his way. Wasn't even braking with him behind me. I quickly made sure he knew his slow POS couldn't run from me and went on with home. /rant

Previous setup was OE Textars on Amsoil 600. They held up okay, with little fade BUT holy shit did they leave pad deposits. Judder killed the experience.

Good things- No fade through several hot sessions at 8-9/10 on 200tw and stops from 130+ (tuned car), even with sort of poor driving lines and premature braking. Contrary to others, I have a ton of meat still left on the pads after two days. I could easily do 4 more days on them, which is really good considering how freaking inexpensive they are. Decent cold performance for a dual purpose pad.

Bad- Running with Motul RBF600, for whatever reason they do not have consistent feel. First few applications are stiff and respond very linearly, once really heated, I experienced slight dead zone, then stiffness. On the road, sometimes the stiff pedal would come back, though I haven't been able to associate a pattern. Compressability or DSC/ABS messing about, I don't know. That is truly the only con, but kills some of the confidence in the pads. It kept me from digging deeper into braking zones, rather starting sooner to make sure they hadn't faded through all the way.

Great pad for beginners until they start driving solo, imo. Amazing price. Feel/stiffness consistency not great.

[nanotech]

Originally Posted by drunkenup

Bad- Running with Motul RBF600, for whatever reason they do not have consistent feel. First few applications are stiff and respond very linearly, once really heated, I experienced slight dead zone, then stiffness. On the road, sometimes the stiff pedal would come back, though I haven't been able to associate a pattern. Compressability or DSC/ABS messing about, I don't know. That is truly the only con, but kills some of the confidence in the pads. It kept me from digging deeper into braking zones, rather starting sooner to make sure they hadn't faded through all the way.

Great pad for beginners until they start driving solo, imo. Amazing price. Feel/stiffness consistency not great.

Thanks for feedback! What other pads have you run on the track? The OE Textars are weirdly grippy as hell and have a really positive pedal feel. I've not found another pad that feels like them. When I swap them back on in the winter I always get amazed at their initial bite. I am happy with the predictability of fade with the EBCs, they progressively start to give up. I'm sure pedal could be more positive with a more track-focused pad.

I'm at 3 "full" track days on them now (4 3hr evening sessions and 1 full day), probably 400km on car on track on tracks with frequent heavy braking from about 180km/h-ish, and the front pads are at about 3/8ths left (with 2000km of street use in between). The wear seems to have slowed somewhat.

I figure I will get another couple day-equivalents out of them, but I've taken to bringing the Textars and some tools with me to the track in case they go south fast.

FYI I run ATE 200 fluid. Seems to hold up well, recent bleeds have been clear with basically no bubbles, couple pinholes here and there.

[drunkenup]

Originally Posted by nanotech

Thanks for feedback! What other pads have you run on the track? The OE Textars are weirdly grippy as hell and have a really positive pedal feel. I've not found another pad that feels like them. When I swap them back on in the winter I always get amazed at their initial bite. I am happy with the predictability of fade with the EBCs, they progressively start to give up. I'm sure pedal could be more positive with a more track-focused pad.

I'm at 3 "full" track days on them now (4 3hr evening sessions and 1 full day), probably 400km on car on track on tracks with frequent heavy braking from about 180km/h-ish, and the front pads are at about 3/8ths left (with 2000km of street use in between). The wear seems to have slowed somewhat.

I figure I will get another couple day-equivalents out of them, but I've taken to bringing the Textars and some tools with me to the track in case they go south fast.

FYI I run ATE 200 fluid. Seems to hold up well, recent bleeds have been clear with basically no bubbles, couple pinholes here and there.

I don't have anything else to share as far as experience, unfortunately. Yeah.. the Textars somehow work extremely well.. even with the brake judder I was cutting the braking zone shorter and shorter and didn't notice much as far as fade. Then again, probably not going quickly enough.

Are your brake related aides still enabled?

Next step might be PFC08s. I'd like to avoid any chance of the pistons exploding and go straight to an ST60 kit before a weekend is ruined- checking account willing, though.

[nanotech]

Originally Posted by drunkenup

Are your brake related aides still enabled?

If you are referring to EDL enable/disable, I haven't coded it out - I haven't done a diff yet. If you are referring to the driver-controlled aids, all track driving is done with the system as off as it gets

Originally Posted by drunkenup

Next step might be PFC08s. I'd like to avoid any chance of the pistons exploding and go straight to an ST60 kit before a weekend is ruined- checking account willing, though.

If you find a source for PFC08s, let me know, but my understanding is they are basically discontinued now, per earlier in this thread.

Agree on BBK vs checking acct balance... maybe next year if I haven't bought something newer and shinier to break on the track instead.

[R1wheelieforfun]

Originally Posted by nanotech

If you are referring to EDL enable/disable, I haven't coded it out - I haven't done a diff yet. If you are referring to the driver-controlled aids, all track driving is done with the system as off as it gets


If you find a source for PFC08s, let me know, but my understanding is they are basically discontinued now, per earlier in this thread.

Agree on BBK vs checking acct balance... maybe next year if I haven't bought something newer and shinier to break on the track instead.

I just bought and am running PFC08s, still available from Bimmerworld.com
http://www.bimmerworld.com/ssearch.h...%20Pads&page=1