SuperSprint Header Install/Review

[mikal7]

Thanks for clearing that up. what do s54 engines Dyno stock??

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by mikal7

Thanks for clearing that up. what do s54 engines Dyno stock??

US spec stock cars are generally ~275 +-5 rwhp depending on the car.

As luck would have it, 333 crank with 17% wheel loss puts you at 276 rwhp

[Bimmer-Bob]

Originally Posted by Obioban

275 (+20 hp) flywheel hp is where a factory tuned DISA/SS car should be. That should be the minimum stig has. Add to the the Evolve tune gains and performance intake gains, and you get where he actually is. My guess would be 285-290 flywheel hp.

285 flywheel hp with 17% drivetrain loss (typical) would put him at 237rwhp. So... that's what I would expect.

I don't understand these numbers. Where are you guys getting them from? No way DISA + a tune is getting you +45 hp over stock. I would guess with the intake manifold + tune + headers MIGHT get you to 275 HP at the crank. What am I missing?

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob

I don't understand these numbers. Where are you guys getting them from? No way DISA + a tune is getting you +45 hp over stock. I would guess with the intake manifold + tune + headers MIGHT get you to 275 HP at the crank. What am I missing?

N52 BMWs that come with DISA from the factory with factory headers and a factory tune range from 255 to 272 crank hp (X5 3.0si). Makes sense that the tuners would start with the best of the factory tunes, yes? Most good NA tunes are worth 10 hp on top of stock, so add that to the factory DISA enabled starting point, and there you go.

More concisely, DISA + BMW tune = 42 hp gain. Aftermarket tune, guessing 10 more, as that's what they gain on cars that have DISA from the factory.

[Bimmer-Bob]

Originally Posted by Obioban

N52 BMWs that come with DISA from the factory with factory headers and a factory tune range from 255 to 272 crank hp (X5 3.0si). Makes sense that the tuners would start with the best of the factory tunes, yes? Most good NA tunes are worth 10 hp on top of stock, so add that to the factory DISA enabled starting point, and there you go.

More concisely, DISA + BMW tune = 42 hp gain. Aftermarket tune, guessing 10 more, as that's what they gain on cars that have DISA from the factory.

I don't know, that sounds like a lot of assumptions is all I'm saying. Sure, 3rd-party tuners might aspire to power levels of the high-output N52 as a starting point, but that doesn't mean that's actually what happens. I've seen dynos from Active of an N52 w/ DISA putting down 200 whp - maybe 260-265 at the crank? Maybe Evolve is doing better, who knows? Surely ouput is better w/ SS headers and the Evolve header tune, but I wouldn't bank on 300 bhp. I'd be crossing my fingers for 275 and anything after that would be gravy. But I guess we'll see - maybe I'm just naturally cynical, although I'd love to be proven wrong in this case.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob

I don't know, that sounds like a lot of assumptions is all I'm saying. Sure, 3rd-party tuners might aspire to power levels of the high-output N52 as a starting point, but that doesn't mean that's actually what happens. I've seen dynos from Active of an N52 w/ DISA putting down 200 whp - maybe 260-265 at the crank? Maybe Evolve is doing better, who knows? Surely ouput is better w/ SS headers and the Evolve header tune, but I wouldn't bank on 300 bhp. I'd be crossing my fingers for 275 and anything after that would be gravy. But I guess we'll see - maybe I'm just naturally cynical, although I'd love to be proven wrong in this case.

Not to put too fine of a point on it, but... Evolve is a much better tuner than AA.

As I pointed out in the other thread,

Originally Posted by Obioban

I'd go with evolve for a number of reasons:
a) I think they're a better tuner in general, both in customer service and ability to tune
b) They've been tuning 130i's since they came out, since they're based in europe. They know what to do to get power out of them on top of enabling DISA
c) They're the only SuperSprint dealer in England. Meaning, they've been making tunes for 130s with SS headers for a long time-- they know what they're doing there. I doubt AA has done a single DISA enabled header car yet, much less tuned one on their dyno to see what works and what doesn't.
(to your above point, yes, header tunes are significantly different-- e.g., the only hardware difference between the US spec and euro spec e46 M3 is headers, yet the tune differs in VANOS timing, AFRs, timing, everything. Significantly different tunes).
d) the Evolve cable is also a code reader and clearer, that displays the codes in plain english
e) Evolve seems to have a better handle on modern BMW ECUs-- e.g. AA has blown up a couple SCed e9X M3s in their development process. Evolve has not in theirs.
f) As far as I know, Evolve is the only tuner that can disable emissions systems and still leave them showing as "ready" when plugged into OBD2 readers.

Not ever a little bit of a tough decision, imo.

[Bimmer-Bob]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Not to put too fine of a point on it, but... Evolve is a much better tuner than AA.

As I pointed out in the other thread,

That may be true - I don't have a dog in the fight one way or another. But with AA what I do have is a dyno for a US-spec N52 with bolt-ons + a DISA manifold + a tune. And Evolve's own site list gains for its N52 tune in the 15-20 bhp range...they supposedly got a 125i to 270 bhp, if I'm not mistaken, so I assume they could do the same for a 128i w/ the DISA manifold - but +30hp MORE for the SS headers? Isn't that overly optimistic?

[Obioban]

I suppose we'll find out soon enough

[Obioban]

To put my evolve enthusiasm in context, my e46 (stock intake, SS exhaust with cats, evolve tune) is making 385 hp (dyno measured)... With MUCH more torque than stock (as in, below 6500 rpm I make significantly more power than a stock e9X M3). From a 3.2... NA... Without DISA... In a 12-17 year old engine design.

In evolve's tuning ability (and SuperSprint hardware) I trust

[MarkkyyMan]

You use a spacer/bung on your 02 sensor?

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by MarkkyyMan

You use a spacer/bung on your 02 sensor?

Nope.

No need, Evolve tune takes care of it properly and I pass plug in emissions fine(and I would imagine sniffer tests).

[JimD]

We won't know until somebody tests. I am also sympathetic with the position that the owner of a car doesn't "owe" us a test althugh the more they "talk about it" the more I think it is reasonable to ask for one.

I will also point out that the hp gains from various modifications are rarely additive. You can't say I will get 5hp from the inlet + 8 hp for the 3 stage maniford + 15 hp for a tune + 20hp for a header and be realistic. The problem is the modications interact. Sometimes 5+8 = 17 and sometimes it equals 10. With our computer controlled cars there is room for a tuner to make things work together but BMW gets a lot more dyno time to tune things than at least most tuners. There are also flow effects that are not computer controlled.

I am very curious but I would hope Stig and others are proud if their car makes "only" 280 flywheel hp with a reasonable conversion. I don't think anybody should be upset with 30-40 more rear wheel hp. If it's more great. If it isn't and you enjoy the car it is still success.

Jim

[Dafttt]

Very well stated Jim. More people need to understand that the HP estimates for bolt-ons simply don't mend together like an equation.

So what if it only ends up being 280 crank HP? That still a 50hp gain in an N/A car. That's.. huge! I'd be very proud of those numbers.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by JimD

With our computer controlled cars there is room for a tuner to make things work together but BMW gets a lot more dyno time to tune things than at least most tuners. There are also flow effects that are not computer controlled.

That is precisely why I am so rah rah evolve.

The n52 cars they tune are all either 125i's or 130i's-- meaning they all have DISA, from the factory. There are no 128i's there. N52 cars make up the majority of e82/e87s in Europe-- not many people buy the 135i's compared to here.

Evolve is also the ONLY SuperSprint dealer in the U.K., so they have lots of dyno time with DISA/SuperSprint n52 e82s/e87s.

Other tuners, e.g. AA, see a couple DISA cars, maybe a couple headers cars... and I doubt they've see one with both.

Plus I think Evolve is just a better tuner, end of statement. How many supercharged e9Xs has AA blown up at this point? Versus none for Evolve.

[Dafttt]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Other tuners, e.g. AA, see a couple DISA cars, maybe a couple headers cars... and I doubt they've see one with both.

I feel like AA was the tune of choice for N52s w/ headers before Evolve poked it's head out last winter.
There's half a dozen or so forum members here with headers, DISA, and an AA tune.

Here's a 328i with the AA header tune, DISA, Supersprint headers, and cat-back. Found it on ActiveAutowerke's YT channel too; 215rwhp.

[Obioban]

^aka the same numbers evolve is making on 125i's without headers...

[vertebra]

@ TheSt|G. Despite not owning a N52 and feeling that most of your comments can be snide and churlish I really enjoyed reading this thread. Thank you.


Posted from 1addicts.com App for Android

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by vertebra

@ TheSt|G. Despite not owning a N52 and feeling that most of your comments can be snide and churlish I really enjoyed reading this thread. Thank you.


Posted from 1addicts.com App for Android

I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy stirring things up.

Thanks man.

[631twentyeighteye]

Any last minute tips or tricks for me when i go to install? i'll be picking up my catless collectors tomorrow.

[kobeballer96]

Originally Posted by 631twentyeighteye

Any last minute tips or tricks for me when i go to install? i'll be picking up my catless collectors tomorrow.

i cant wait, this well determine if i should get supersprint or the other guys design!

[tuphdc]

Originally Posted by kobeballer96

i cant wait, this well determine if i should get supersprint or the other guys design!

Same here!!

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by kobeballer96

i cant wait, this well determine if i should get supersprint or the other guys design!

Originally Posted by tuphdc

Same here!!

Really? There's more to headers than just deleting the cats. There's also optimizing the headers and build construction.

No doubt the catless headers will gain some power. But, almost certainly they won't gain as much as the supersprints. They also may have cracking/rusting issues down the road, and/or have fitment issues during install.

Said as someone who started out with cheap catless headers on his e46 M3 and now has SuperSprint. Never again-- do it right the first time.